Templar Adjustments to consider for update 35

MEBengalsFan2001

Hi All...

I know the devs made some adjustments recently to the templar biting jabs to provide major sorcery/brutality for 10 seconds. I honestly don't think that is the way to provide templar this buff using their skills. Looking just at the names of skill I was hoping Power of Light would lose minor breach and instead provide major sorcery/brutality for the time this ability is active on the target. The name power of light would make more sense for major sorcery / brutality and biting jabs should go back to providing major prophecy/savagery.

Next I would like the devs to adjust the following for templars as well. Luminous shards should not provide additional resources, instead targets in the AoE are impacted by minor breach. If not Luminous shards than maybe make Blazing Spear add minor breach and have its damage reduced.

What other templar updates you would like to see come update 35?

Mr_Stach

I'm not sure what Templar needs, I think Templar is too effective in PvP so too many changes/buffs would make it more oppressive. But I don't want it to suffer in PvE either.

fizl101

I'm happy with biting jabs having sorcery/brutality personally. I'm more interested in what they can do for group utility as a non healer. Currently its minor sorcery....or minor sorcery.

ealdwin

I'd like to see Sun Fire and morphs have an 80% increase on the initial damage, and Vampire's Bane lose the duration increase and instead given a new effect, such as allowing the DoT damage to stack for up to 3 times. The initial change would be in line with the changes a few patches back for Frost Reach and would allow Sun Fire to function better in either the Spammable w/ DoT role it seems to have been built for. The other change is just a better use of morph effects instead of just adding more time to the duration, especially since Templar already has one passive whose sole focus seems to be duration increasing.

deleted221205-002626

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Hi All...

I know the devs made some adjustments recently to the templar biting jabs to provide major sorcery/brutality for 10 seconds. I honestly don't think that is the way to provide templar this buff using their skills. Looking just at the names of skill I was hoping Power of Light would lose minor breach and instead provide major sorcery/brutality for the time this ability is active on the target. The name power of light would make more sense for major sorcery / brutality and biting jabs should go back to providing major prophecy/savagery.

Next I would like the devs to adjust the following for templars as well. Luminous shards should not provide additional resources, instead targets in the AoE are impacted by minor breach. If not Luminous shards than maybe make Blazing Spear add minor breach and have its damage reduced.

What other templar updates you would like to see come update 35?

Not sure thats a good idea.. then your forcing templars to dps to provide group utility and shards is a high magicka drain ability. If i was to guess your trying to ease the stamina burden on debuffs over to magicka and then remove theyre ability to help sustain others which doesnt really make any sense

Starlight_Knight

You should play warden if you think templar needs tlc.

Mr_Stach

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

You should play warden if you think templar needs tlc.

You know it's funny because of all the Classes I think that Templar has the best overall skill trees, useful abilities and ults in all three trees.

I would love for Warden to get the synergy that Templar & DK currently have (even with the DK nerfs) across their Trees. Animal Companion Tree is ok (except Dive is sooooo Clunky) but Winter's Embrace and Green Balance just need some more work to be more useful.

MEBengalsFan2001

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

You should play warden if you think templar needs tlc.

I do and I have no issues with my Warden. My warden has easier access to buffs and debuffs. Two skills give major sorcery/brutality and minor protection along with purge, healing and major resolve.

Come mod 34 Warden will get major and minor breach from one ability. And has other debuffs that it can do. Cutting dive is a great ability to use at range.

The only thing a melee warden is missing is a gap closer but it does get bird of prey to provide more damage and speed.

I'm sorry but the whole warden thing is a joke IMO considering that is the second character I play behind my Templar.

I play that character as bow/bow, bow/DW and bow/2H.


As for heals, that is where the warden need a little bit of love. Overall they are in a better now than they were a year ago with healing.

As for templar there buff/debuffs are not as fluid as the Warden ones are.

Mr_Stach

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

MEBengalsFan2001

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

Templar stamina need love as well. The sustain on a templar is horrible as a stamina build. My warden sustain is way better.

merpins

Rather than nerfing one of the most well balanced classes in the game, they should balance and rework all the other classes to be as good as it. I'm not saying the damage on templar isn't too high, it might be and some balancing could be done. But the Templar's toolkit, skills, and how they all work, they're all really good. All the skills work together to make a cohesive class identity, and players that play templar use the skills as intended. Consider all the other classes in the game, and tell me one other that works just as well in both stamina and magicka builds, using skills from all of the skill trees provided by the class?

Sorcerer? Maybe.

All the other classes should just be brought up to the standard that templar sets. Some skill reworks or buffs in all the classes to make it so everything is utilized would be great. Warden suffers since many skills are just dead outside the Animal skill line, Nightblade is just a mess, Sorcerer and DK could use some love in the Stamina department (though dk is in a good spot overall), and Necromancer? ... I don't play necromancer so I can't say much. But the point still stands.

Hescrow

Major brutality with biting jabs is useless for stamplar especially if you use Rally from 2H line which is the most common case.

maxjapank

Hescrow wrote: »

Major brutality with biting jabs is useless for stamplar especially if you use Rally from 2H line which is the most common case.

I agree. I much preferred Major Savagery.

MEBengalsFan2001

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

I disagree as my friend plays a Magic warden. He uses the following on his front bar: Deep Fissure, screaming cliff racer, Fetcher Infection, arctic wind / shimmer shield (depends if he is in group or alone) and crushing shock and runs the bear. He murders players rather easily.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

All the other classes should just be brought up to the standard that templar sets. Some skill reworks or buffs in all the classes to make it so everything is utilized would be great. Warden suffers since many skills are just dead outside the Animal skill line, Nightblade is just a mess, Sorcerer and DK could use some love in the Stamina department (though dk is in a good spot overall), and Necromancer? ... I don't play necromancer so I can't say much. But the point still stands.

You say NB skill line is a mess but I seen some very deadly NB simply merch a full 12 man group. I've seen some really tanky NB that can also dish out a bunch of damage and than go stealth when low on health only to return and murder the player they were facing like they were using a hot knife cutting through room temp butter but before that it was a stalemate.

I think it is a matter of the full build. You say templar are fine in their current setup. I say for melee based templar they are ok but could use some adjustment with regards to how they get buffs. The bigger issue for templar is that one of their primary range abilities can result in the player getting stuck in animation if the target they were aiming at gets out of their LoS and that can result in the templar dying because the game isn't letting the player swap bars or use a different ability. I'm talking about the dark fire skill.

All classes could use some adjustments to be more fluid.

Mr_Stach

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

I disagree as my friend plays a Magic warden. He uses the following on his front bar: Deep Fissure, screaming cliff racer, Fetcher Infection, arctic wind / shimmer shield (depends if he is in group or alone) and crushing shock and runs the bear. He murders players rather easily.
.

I didn't say that Magden was straight out bad, you can still kill people. But let me lay out what Magden is missing.

1. The number 1 thing is an On-Demand Stun. With the exception of Necro, Every Class has a variety of On Demand and and Defensive Stuns. Magden has a RNG Stun with bear, which is useless in PVP because Bear is just a weaker option. Warden now has a 5 SECOND Stun buildup with Arctic Blast, that is the longest buildup for any stun in the game, Freeze Time (AoE Stun from Psijiic Line is 4 Seconds and has a Slow Built In), Also Arctic Blast is Expensive as it has a very short duration, 5 Seconds, to get your 5 damage ticks to stun. It's just really bad. And Finally Zos just Slapped a Defensive stun on Slab, which is ok. But Between Arctic Blast and Slab, you don't get to choose when you stun your opponents, which is a big issue.
2. Magicka Warden also does not have access to a Snare/Imob Removal or Immunity, you do have your little speed boost with Wings, but if you're glued to the ground, it doesn't matter. This is an Easy Fix by adding it to Wings.
3. Cliff Racer hits really hard but it's slow and clunky, people can dodge it very easy. It also has a hoop to jump through to activate it's special thing which is distance, in PvP you're in Close Quarters constantly, you will almost never get to use the special thing on Stam and on Mag the Distance aspect fails due to the same reason
4. Last thing is Sustain, so Warden has this cool little netch that restores resources, which is fine but Sustain is still a bit rough since Warden's abilities in general hit hard but are expensive, so a little extra something, another easy fix actually, in Green Balance there's a Passive Called Nature's Gift that returns resources when you heal an ally, which is great but you miss out on that in PvP, so make it apply when you heal Yourself and Allies and it's good to go.
5. Little Note on the Netch, it will remove negative effects occasionally, which is fine except for Plague Bombs that explode when are purged, so you risk random explosions while Netch is out if Plague Bombs are being used (Which they are constantly)

Sorry to Hijack this Templar Post, but Magicka Warden 100% does need some help, and although I don't play Templar much, general improvements are welcome as long as they don't tip the scales too much, I still see Templars as really really good in PvP, not as crazy as DK, but more of a case of a Better General Balance that should be a bit of a standard that Zos should implement across the other classes.

MEBengalsFan2001

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

I disagree as my friend plays a Magic warden. He uses the following on his front bar: Deep Fissure, screaming cliff racer, Fetcher Infection, arctic wind / shimmer shield (depends if he is in group or alone) and crushing shock and runs the bear. He murders players rather easily.
.

I didn't say that Magden was straight out bad, you can still kill people. But let me lay out what Magden is missing.

1. The number 1 thing is an On-Demand Stun. With the exception of Necro, Every Class has a variety of On Demand and and Defensive Stuns. Magden has a RNG Stun with bear, which is useless in PVP because Bear is just a weaker option. Warden now has a 5 SECOND Stun buildup with Arctic Blast, that is the longest buildup for any stun in the game, Freeze Time (AoE Stun from Psijiic Line is 4 Seconds and has a Slow Built In), Also Arctic Blast is Expensive as it has a very short duration, 5 Seconds, to get your 5 damage ticks to stun. It's just really bad. And Finally Zos just Slapped a Defensive stun on Slab, which is ok. But Between Arctic Blast and Slab, you don't get to choose when you stun your opponents, which is a big issue.
2. Magicka Warden also does not have access to a Snare/Imob Removal or Immunity, you do have your little speed boost with Wings, but if you're glued to the ground, it doesn't matter. This is an Easy Fix by adding it to Wings.
3. Cliff Racer hits really hard but it's slow and clunky, people can dodge it very easy. It also has a hoop to jump through to activate it's special thing which is distance, in PvP you're in Close Quarters constantly, you will almost never get to use the special thing on Stam and on Mag the Distance aspect fails due to the same reason
4. Last thing is Sustain, so Warden has this cool little netch that restores resources, which is fine but Sustain is still a bit rough since Warden's abilities in general hit hard but are expensive, so a little extra something, another easy fix actually, in Green Balance there's a Passive Called Nature's Gift that returns resources when you heal an ally, which is great but you miss out on that in PvP, so make it apply when you heal Yourself and Allies and it's good to go.
5. Little Note on the Netch, it will remove negative effects occasionally, which is fine except for Plague Bombs that explode when are purged, so you risk random explosions while Netch is out if Plague Bombs are being used (Which they are constantly)

Sorry to Hijack this Templar Post, but Magicka Warden 100% does need some help, and although I don't play Templar much, general improvements are welcome as long as they don't tip the scales too much, I still see Templars as really really good in PvP, not as crazy as DK, but more of a case of a Better General Balance that should be a bit of a standard that Zos should implement across the other classes.

You makes some excellent points on the Warden and one of its glaring weakness, not having an ability that straight out stuns targets.

You mentioned arctic blast and how it now takes longer to stun a target. What you didn't illustrate is that Crystallized Slab will now not only reflect the damage back to the attacker but also stun them and not for the standard 3 seconds but for 5 seconds. Between Arctic Blast and Crystallized Slab Wardens can stun opponents. The issue I see is that both of those are more for tank builds than actual DPS where as Templar, DK, DK, & Sorc can use damaging abilities to stun their targets. As for Necro they do fear more than stun from my experience.

So yes, Wardens need something to stun their target. Maybe Dive should set them off balance if 7m away and if the target is off balance it should stun them, regardless of the morph. That would provide wardens a way to stun their targets from a damaging ability. The bonus to bleed and based on range would have to be adjusted since now it also stuns.

As for immobility removal; isn't that removed by the Betty/Bull Netch? If so, its like the templar you risk setting plague break off to get your mobility back. You could also run 5 pieces of medium and use shuffle to remove it or race against time. Templars have the same issues here and have the same non-class specific skills to help remove snares and what not.

As for players dodging and what not, the same can be said for any range ability that is used in this game. Most range ability have a chance to be dodged. As for the ability itself it will be used more in mod 34 by Wardens because off balance will now have a CP for 10% damage and well that's an easy way to get off balance in this game.

As for sustain both of my PVP characters run recovery jewelry. It really helps with sustain. Yeah I miss a bit in damage but I can push more because I have the resources.

As for the bear and not being viable in PVP. Ask the players that run up to me and get stunned/knockback and see me backing away hitting them cutting dive knocking them off balance, etc... Warden is built for range DPS with the bear as a distraction, similar to how am Mag Sorc are built. Yeah you can go pet less but you miss the chance to get free damage and a distraction that could allow you to escape if needed.

If the warden had a way to stun targets with a damaging ability I believe they would be in a better place; not perfect but better. One other thing is that the primary burst heal still needs to be increase a bit more as well to make them more viable.

Mr_Stach

Yesterday I did a whole post on Warden about potential fixes, but really it falls down to Zos placing unneeded Hoops for Warden to do what most other classes do normally. You gotta be X meters away for special bird things, you gotta hug your enemy to get a stun or wait for them to hit you with a Ranged attack, it makes what DK or Templar do very simply just a big annoyance.

Necrotech_Master

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

Templar stamina need love as well. The sustain on a templar is horrible as a stamina build. My warden sustain is way better.

my stamplar actually feels has decent sustain, just have to make sure keep the rune up (as that buff provides 240 recovery per second, unaffected by recov buffs or debuffs since its a fixed value just being granted by the skill, which means it works through block)

MEBengalsFan2001

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

Templar stamina need love as well. The sustain on a templar is horrible as a stamina build. My warden sustain is way better.

my stamplar actually feels has decent sustain, just have to make sure keep the rune up (as that buff provides 240 recovery per second, unaffected by recov buffs or debuffs since its a fixed value just being granted by the skill, which means it works through block)

I think sustain for stamina really depends on the number of medium armor pieces a player has equipped. More you have equipped the better the sustain will be. If a player is running 5 heavy and 2 medium it is their own fault they don't have the sustain needed in PVP. Same with magic builds; you need to run light pieces to have sustain.

Amottica

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

. The name power of light would make more sense for major sorcery / brutality and biting jabs should go back to providing major prophecy/savagery.

The name power of the light is related to the power this skill builds up and then delivers. Sure, we can stretch that to mean a whole host of things since the same logic used above can be applied to brittle, berserk, courage, and more.

Faulgor

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well Stamden is 100% Ok for the most part.

Magicka Warden on the other hand needs some love.

Templar stamina need love as well. The sustain on a templar is horrible as a stamina build. My warden sustain is way better.

Stamina Templar just has absolutely no identity. It doesn't offer anything that magicka Templars can't do better.
With hybridization that issue has somewhat lost its urgency, but it has also made it more apparent. Because of Minor Sorcery, you're even gimping yourself as a stamina Templar if you spec into weapon power instead of spell power.

Either Biting Jabs has to offer something unique and worthwhile, or we need more stamina morphs.

Caribou77

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

You should play warden if you think templar needs tlc.

I do and I have no issues with my Warden. My warden has easier access to buffs and debuffs. Two skills give major sorcery/brutality and minor protection along with purge, healing and major resolve.

Come mod 34 Warden will get major and minor breach from one ability. And has other debuffs that it can do. Cutting dive is a great ability to use at range.

The only thing a melee warden is missing is a gap closer but it does get bird of prey to provide more damage and speed.

I'm sorry but the whole warden thing is a joke IMO considering that is the second character I play behind my Templar.

I play that character as bow/bow, bow/DW and bow/2H.


As for heals, that is where the warden need a little bit of love. Overall they are in a better now than they were a year ago with healing.

As for templar there buff/debuffs are not as fluid as the Warden ones are.

Caribou77

"Cutting dive is a great ability to use at range."

Are you talking about PVP? In my experience, Dive is incredibly slow and easily dodgeable. I honestly don't know anyone who uses it in PVP.

If you're referencing PVE then I am sorry, my bad.

MEBengalsFan2001

Caribou77 wrote: »

"Cutting dive is a great ability to use at range."

Are you talking about PVP? In my experience, Dive is incredibly slow and easily dodgeable. I honestly don't know anyone who uses it in PVP.

If you're referencing PVE then I am sorry, my bad.

I find it interesting you mention dodge as a way to avoid Dive. Yet I see Wardens use Sorch/Fissure/Subterranean Assault and yet that is just as easy to dodge, in fact IMO it is easier to dodge than Dive. I try to use dive at least 20m or further away to increase my odds of landing the hit. Usually followed up by a second dive for bleed damage on my target. Most players I face can easily can avoid Sorch/Fissure/Subterranean Assault but have a harder time avoiding dive.

Same can be said for most ranged or melee abilities, simply dodge. But there is only so much stamina a player has before they run out.

As for Dive be slow, I don't see it being slow I find it very fluid in my build so I don't have an issue.

Mr_Stach

Well People have several seconds to avoid getting hit by Scorch, it's a huge windup, there's a big circle around Warden's Feet as a timer. Same vein as BB, you see the wind-up and can be ready for it most of the time.

Caribou77

Hi Bengal -- thanks for the perspective. I find in bgs (most of my pvp) that I can't stay ranged/distant very long with all the gap closers, and also (this may be unique to those of us with bad lag) that ranged spells are passively dodged a lot. Up-close spells (whirling blades, dizzy swing) seem to happen a lot faster and connect with higher frequency. But maybe it's just my bad connection?

Baeleth

What Templars need is a crowd control skill. I think they're the only class that doesn't have one. Personally, I would like to see Eclipse scrapped and replaced with an AoE stun/immobilize. If this change was made, then Templars could finally be taken seriously as a tank option.

Mr_Stach

Ah. PvE.

I was like. Templar has several stuns. But they're in PvP.

MEBengalsFan2001

I think every class should have access to all of the standard type of CC effects.

Stun, Root, off balance, knockback and Immobilize (reduction in movement speed).

Templar get all but a root with their tool kit. They just need a good root ability. Instead of my idea with Blazing/Luminous Spear, Luminous stays as is and Blazing roots targets that get hit by the skill and reduce the damage down to what Luminous provides for damage for Blazing. I think that would help templar in both PVE and PVP.

OBJnoob

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think every class should have access to all of the standard type of CC effects.

Stun, Root, off balance, knockback and Immobilize (reduction in movement speed).

Templar get all but a root with their tool kit. They just need a good root ability. Instead of my idea with Blazing/Luminous Spear, Luminous stays as is and Blazing roots targets that get hit by the skill and reduce the damage down to what Luminous provides for damage for Blazing. I think that would help templar in both PVE and PVP.

Meh… I want to agree but I don’t think I do. The hard part about balancing is that you do want classes to be relatively equal BUT you don’t want them to be the same. If every class needs a stun, root, off balance, knock back, and immobilize then don’t they also need a spammable, a burst heal, a HoT, major offensive buff, major defensive buff, snare immunity, major evasion— I mean pretty much we’re just all gonna be the same you’ll literally pick what character you wanna play by the colors you’d like your animations to be.

Stuns and knock backs are the same. Every class doesn’t need a knock back. It’s COOL that one or two classes can knock you off walls and others can’t.

Mr_Stach

OBJnoob wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think every class should have access to all of the standard type of CC effects.

Stun, Root, off balance, knockback and Immobilize (reduction in movement speed).

Templar get all but a root with their tool kit. They just need a good root ability. Instead of my idea with Blazing/Luminous Spear, Luminous stays as is and Blazing roots targets that get hit by the skill and reduce the damage down to what Luminous provides for damage for Blazing. I think that would help templar in both PVE and PVP.

Meh… I want to agree but I don’t think I do. The hard part about balancing is that you do want classes to be relatively equal BUT you don’t want them to be the same. If every class needs a stun, root, off balance, knock back, and immobilize then don’t they also need a spammable, a burst heal, a HoT, major offensive buff, major defensive buff, snare immunity, major evasion— I mean pretty much we’re just all gonna be the same you’ll literally pick what character you wanna play by the colors you’d like your animations to be.

Stuns and knock backs are the same. Every class doesn’t need a knock back. It’s COOL that one or two classes can knock you off walls and others can’t.

Ok let me simplify this, Every Class needs access to an On Demand Stun. Every Class should have a Comparable Self Healing Kit, how that happens, doesn't matter. There needs to be some Standardization, Classes can still be unique, but lacking basic tools is just bad design.