Heavy attack builds need a nerf.

silver1surfer69

Im of the oppinion that heavy attack builds need a nerf. Since a while you try to nerf frontloading 1 shot things and thats a good thing imo. Heavy attacks can get insanel frontloaded to do increadible dmg. Imo you cant really nerf destro staff passive but the dk skill molten armaments def needs a nerf imo. +50% HA is too much. Change it to +30% that will still suffice imo. Especially in conjunction with off balance heavy attacks are OP too much and out of balance.

El_Borracho

Or... you could move when you see a player winding up for a heavy attack.

No more nerfs.

maxjapank

El_Borracho wrote: »

Or... you could move when you see a player winding up for a heavy attack.

No more nerfs.

I'm not for nerfs. But you can't move out of the way from lightning heavies. And you can't move from a stealth attack if the DK is using Vampire stage 4 stealth. Personally I've always thought that +50% was a bit much, especially when Empower only allows +40%. Bringing DK's down a bit is not unreasonable.

fred4

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

silver1surfer69

El_Borracho wrote: »

Or... you could move when you see a player winding up for a heavy attack.

No more nerfs.

when u 1vx lets say vs 5 players, pls show me how u do that. Im not talking about a 1v1 in melee combat. Im talking about someone who sits in the back, in a BG or in a zerg and winds up a HA and does the most single hit dmg in the entire game (every ultimate included). You dont see it.

silver1surfer69

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

Arcanasx

Before the vamp rework and the reintroduction of the heavy attack bonus to empower, molten armaments was widely considered to be one of the worst DK skills, and there were multiple threads and posts made over the years asking for that skill to be completely remade into something "useful", as it was seen as a waste of a skill.

But hey, lets nerf molten armaments because of the change to empower and invisible vampires stacking damage with simmering frenzy, instead of for example, disabling heavy attack bonuses while out of combat. There's a reason why the vast majority of "heavy attack builds" these days are inferno gank builds, while lightning builds have basically disappeared now.

Molten armaments had already received an indirect nerf when they hybridized other major brutality/sorcery skills to provide both as well, on top of increasing the duration of igneous weapons and forward momentum. Actually nerfing the bonus without compensation would further make it useful only on inferno gank builds as its already mediocre on anything else.

They could even simply try changing the unique 50% bonus to the empower buff instead for the caster to prevent stacking the heavy attack bonus with other sources of empower (and reduce the duration and resource cost as well), to tone down heavy attack ganking at the extreme end while making the skill more useful for basically any other build.

silver1surfer69

Arcanasx wrote: »

Before the vamp rework and the reintroduction of the heavy attack bonus to empower, molten armaments was widely considered to be one of the worst DK skills, and there were multiple threads and posts made over the years asking for that skill to be completely remade into something "useful", as it was seen as a waste of a skill.

But hey, lets nerf molten armaments because of the change to empower and invisible vampires stacking damage with simmering frenzy, instead of for example, disabling heavy attack bonuses while out of combat. There's a reason why the vast majority of "heavy attack builds" these days are inferno gank builds, while lightning builds have basically disappeared now.

Molten armaments had already received an indirect nerf when they hybridized other major brutality/sorcery skills to provide both as well, on top of increasing the duration of igneous weapons and forward momentum. Actually nerfing the bonus without compensation would further make it useful only on inferno gank builds as its already mediocre on anything else.

They could even simply try changing the unique 50% bonus to the empower buff instead for the caster to prevent stacking the heavy attack bonus with other sources of empower (and reduce the duration and resource cost as well), to tone down heavy attack ganking at the extreme end while making the skill more useful for basically any other build.

True imo. I guess i was wrong and molten armamdnts is not the main problem in this. Im a dk main too and i dont use molten armants or morphs either.

fred4

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

I got hit for 25K on one occasion, whereas a value of 37K for DK and 30K for NB was reported in a previous thread. Given the figures you are reporting, I actually don't see much of a problem. These builds seemed to put everything into that one attack and unable to follow up. Maybe they simply weren't good players, but ... eh.

Bodycounter

Arcanasx wrote: »

Before the vamp rework and the reintroduction of the heavy attack bonus to empower, molten armaments was widely considered to be one of the worst DK skills, and there were multiple threads and posts made over the years asking for that skill to be completely remade into something "useful", as it was seen as a waste of a skill.

I was and still am someone who thinks that Molten Armaments should get a rework. People from PvP complain about it being too strong but any nerf would make the ability absolutely useless in PvE. The only use of Molten Armaments has been some niche heavy attack builds in PvE anyway. Major Sorcery/Brutality is widely available (either through Potions, Igneous Weapons or Degeneration) so a rework wouldn't hurt.

My first thread to this topic is over 4 years old by now. Back then we already talked about Empower on heavy attacks being unbalanced in PvP, especially in combination with Molten Armaments.

xiphactinus

Can't you interrupt someone winding up a heavy attack? Also doesn't los interrupt lightning stave heavy attack? I hate streak but I don't want it nerfed. Let us have our toys and play.

xiphactinus

fred4 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

I got hit for 25K on one occasion, whereas a value of 37K for DK and 30K for NB was reported in a previous thread. Given the figures you are reporting, I actually don't see much of a problem. These builds seemed to put everything into that one attack and unable to follow up. Maybe they simply weren't good players, but ... eh.

I've never been killed by or seen a build like this in pvp.

Dalsinthus

This play style has been just gutted for PVE over the past few years. It is really hard to make it work adequately compared to light attack rotations. It's a little hard to hear more calls for nerfs, given that history.

Mr_Stach

We've heard your feedback and have removed all weapons from the game.

Thecompton73

xiphactinus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

I got hit for 25K on one occasion, whereas a value of 37K for DK and 30K for NB was reported in a previous thread. Given the figures you are reporting, I actually don't see much of a problem. These builds seemed to put everything into that one attack and unable to follow up. Maybe they simply weren't good players, but ... eh.

I've never been killed by or seen a build like this in pvp.

They're around, but there aren't so many of them it will happen even once a day. Likely because other than sitting back and doing heavy attacks on people engaged with someone else they aren't good for much. But in the last month there have been a few times I've been fighting in a keep courtyard on my glass cannon NB and get destroyed by a one shot HA that connects while I'm off balance. The death recap shows crazy numbers like 28K when it happens. At an average of it happening once a week I feel like it's still a pretty niche play style and not worthy of the hammer at this point.

silver1surfer69

xiphactinus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

I got hit for 25K on one occasion, whereas a value of 37K for DK and 30K for NB was reported in a previous thread. Given the figures you are reporting, I actually don't see much of a problem. These builds seemed to put everything into that one attack and unable to follow up. Maybe they simply weren't good players, but ... eh.

I've never been killed by or seen a build like this in pvp.

There are several videos on youtube.

silver1surfer69

Thecompton73 wrote: »

xiphactinus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

I got hit for 25K on one occasion, whereas a value of 37K for DK and 30K for NB was reported in a previous thread. Given the figures you are reporting, I actually don't see much of a problem. These builds seemed to put everything into that one attack and unable to follow up. Maybe they simply weren't good players, but ... eh.

I've never been killed by or seen a build like this in pvp.

They're around, but there aren't so many of them it will happen even once a day. Likely because other than sitting back and doing heavy attacks on people engaged with someone else they aren't good for much. But in the last month there have been a few times I've been fighting in a keep courtyard on my glass cannon NB and get destroyed by a one shot HA that connects while I'm off balance. The death recap shows crazy numbers like 28K when it happens. At an average of it happening once a week I feel like it's still a pretty niche play style and not worthy of the hammer at this point.

But dont you want holes in the balance to be fixed? Edit: My goal is not to get killed less by such a build my goal is to strive for a game with the vision to have good balance in the end. I know that total balance will never be reached and is an ideal that is not entirely possible, but i think and feel that the combat dev team is doing a good job since like the last 1 or 2 or maybe 3 years. So i want spikes in the balance to be evended out and identify such HA builds we are talking about here is such a spike. I think the game will benefit from this in the long term.

Mr_Stach

Zos Balance is a Sledgehammer. They're basically incapable of making small tweaks like you're suggesting.

I don't see HA Builds a large enough issue to address when there's a lot more rampant issues, such as the completely over the top self healing that can happen due to stacking HoTs.

Sure the HA builds might be a bit of a spike, but there are bigger spikes on both ends of the spectrum.

Hescrow

HA is One of thing in this game which illustrate perfectly skilled players.

Why?

Land HA is difficult in PvP with server perfs and lags.
And dodge HA is also for skilled players.

At least they play with flat bonus and not with proc sets like PB or DC or UT and other mythic items and Arena weapons which ruins this game.

Thecompton73

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

xiphactinus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

I got hit for 25K on one occasion, whereas a value of 37K for DK and 30K for NB was reported in a previous thread. Given the figures you are reporting, I actually don't see much of a problem. These builds seemed to put everything into that one attack and unable to follow up. Maybe they simply weren't good players, but ... eh.

I've never been killed by or seen a build like this in pvp.

They're around, but there aren't so many of them it will happen even once a day. Likely because other than sitting back and doing heavy attacks on people engaged with someone else they aren't good for much. But in the last month there have been a few times I've been fighting in a keep courtyard on my glass cannon NB and get destroyed by a one shot HA that connects while I'm off balance. The death recap shows crazy numbers like 28K when it happens. At an average of it happening once a week I feel like it's still a pretty niche play style and not worthy of the hammer at this point.

But dont you want holes in the balance to be fixed? Edit: My goal is not to get killed less by such a build my goal is to strive for a game with the vision to have good balance in the end. I know that total balance will never be reached and is an ideal that is not entirely possible, but i think and feel that the combat dev team is doing a good job since like the last 1 or 2 or maybe 3 years. So i want spikes in the balance to be evended out and identify such HA builds we are talking about here is such a spike. I think the game will benefit from this in the long term.

When you're talking about balance imagine a set of scales. On each side are hundreds of build possibilities. If something is so out of line that a significant amount of people start using it that side of the scale gets weighed down. But when that outlier is as rare as HA builds are the scale doesn't even budge. So I say let them have their fun with their niche build. And that's coming from someone that doesn't have a HA build and that plays on glass cannons that easily get one shot by them. I'd much rather the Devs scrutinize other ridiculous build possibilities such as Necro's using dark conversion and viscous death/plaguebreak to pull groups of people into a Colossus/Boneyard combo to get multiple kills without those people having any chance to react. That's an example of something so prevalent it has tipped the balance of the scales.

silver1surfer69

Thecompton73 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

xiphactinus wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I raised this a month or two ago, but either I don't PvP enough anymore or those heavy attack one shot builds have died down on PC EU for unknown reasons.

Heavy attack lightning builds are old and can be nasty, but were never all that prevalent. Situationally strong, but you're also very open while you're channeling. A speciality playstyle in my book. What was new were the fire staff heavy attack builds from stealth. The surprising thing about those was apparently that not only DKs used them, but magblade could be successful with that playstyle too, relying on their increased crit damage and guaranteed crit from cloak.

The primary culprit for this playstyle becoming viable is IMO Sergeant's Mail, which grants 3K weapon / spell damage to heavy attacks with no other conditions. Other sets require a mag or stam skill to be cast and have somewhat lower damage values (Undaunted Infiltrator / Unweaver) or require you to be already in combat for activation (Noble Duelist).

I do not favor nerfing DK skills (nor others) and I'm not sure how you can proc off balance to be active on your first heavy attack from crouch / invisibility, unless someone else has done it for you. IMO flat out ganks / true one shots out of nowhere in a single GCD is what needs to be addressed. ZOS changed those armor sets. This new paradigm is a direct consequence of that. If this is deemed worthy of addressing, then I think it should be addressed by reverting Sergeant's Mail in particular or by attaching further condition(s) to it. In the past, this type of thing has been addressed by attaching a "must be in combat" condition to sets that grant a lot of weapon / spell damage, such as Clever Alchemist. I think the same principle applies here. That seems the least sledgehammery approach to me. The problem is not DK. The problem are those sets.

Very true and deep analyzis imo. What also needs to be adressed is off balance imo. Im not sure how much bonus dmg HA on off balance gives, most sources say +50% and i think i saw 1 source even speaking of +70% bonus dmg - anyway its too much imo, especially since this seems originally to be designed for tanks and theres no need to give a tank such a dmg boost. The problem i refer to and i encountered is indeed HA in pvp, especially from stealth and/or far away. I recently (means the actual patch U33) got hit for +10k (10-12k) in various occasions and im very tanky. A normal target easily gets hit for 15-20k. For example a dawnbreaker hits me usually for like 3-5k and im even a vampire, maybe 8k from someone with an extremely min-maxed build and lots of experience - so this is an out of order balance in this case imo.

I got hit for 25K on one occasion, whereas a value of 37K for DK and 30K for NB was reported in a previous thread. Given the figures you are reporting, I actually don't see much of a problem. These builds seemed to put everything into that one attack and unable to follow up. Maybe they simply weren't good players, but ... eh.

I've never been killed by or seen a build like this in pvp.

They're around, but there aren't so many of them it will happen even once a day. Likely because other than sitting back and doing heavy attacks on people engaged with someone else they aren't good for much. But in the last month there have been a few times I've been fighting in a keep courtyard on my glass cannon NB and get destroyed by a one shot HA that connects while I'm off balance. The death recap shows crazy numbers like 28K when it happens. At an average of it happening once a week I feel like it's still a pretty niche play style and not worthy of the hammer at this point.

But dont you want holes in the balance to be fixed? Edit: My goal is not to get killed less by such a build my goal is to strive for a game with the vision to have good balance in the end. I know that total balance will never be reached and is an ideal that is not entirely possible, but i think and feel that the combat dev team is doing a good job since like the last 1 or 2 or maybe 3 years. So i want spikes in the balance to be evended out and identify such HA builds we are talking about here is such a spike. I think the game will benefit from this in the long term.

When you're talking about balance imagine a set of scales. On each side are hundreds of build possibilities. If something is so out of line that a significant amount of people start using it that side of the scale gets weighed down. But when that outlier is as rare as HA builds are the scale doesn't even budge. So I say let them have their fun with their niche build. And that's coming from someone that doesn't have a HA build and that plays on glass cannons that easily get one shot by them. I'd much rather the Devs scrutinize other ridiculous build possibilities such as Necro's using dark conversion and viscous death/plaguebreak to pull groups of people into a Colossus/Boneyard combo to get multiple kills without those people having any chance to react. That's an example of something so prevalent it has tipped the balance of the scales.

I kind of agree with you but what you are describing is how many ppl use what how often and not balance. Balance is the balance of power. If 2 weapons do 50 each dmg they are perfectly balanced refering to dmg. If a HA does 3x the dmg of the most powerfull ultimates thats a spike in balance (=unbalance) and thats imo not healthy for the game.

React

The heavy attack GANK dk setup definitely needs to be nerfed. I've taken 33k heavy attacks from these guys, who are in stealth 20 meters away. Even if they do not do the full setup with 500 ult/corrosive, they can still land 15k+ heavy attacks just standing without the additional buffs.

Xarc

Heavy attack is a base mechanic of this game. It's the first thing you learn in tutorial.

It's risky in pvp, and easy to counter, block, dodge, interupt... Being interupted will even make you stunned.
Big risk = big gain.
I think heavy attacks are great right now.

merpins

Gankers are going to gank, and even if you nerf heavy attacks, you're still going to get one-shot sometimes by the random ganker trying to pick people off. Outside of gankers, heavy attacks and builds that use them really pose no problem. Therefore, I don't think they're a problem in the game.

Cast_El

Xarc wrote: »

Heavy attack is a base mechanic of this game. It's the first thing you learn in tutorial.

It's risky in pvp, and easy to counter, block, dodge, interupt... Being interupted will even make you stunned.
Big risk = big gain.
I think heavy attacks are great right now.

I took a 68k one shot hit from a nightblade. My character has 28k resistance. I didn't even saw him. I just died.
This should not happen. And I also have a ganker build and I just kill people with heavy attack. This should not be possible either.

Psiion

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maxjapank

I've long supported ganking. But I've come to believe that one-shot ganking needs to be nerfed in anyway possible. There is absolutely no reason that players with over 20k resists and 30k health should be one-shot without a chance to fight back. You can list all sorts of counter play - get more resists, get more health, slot magelight - but at the end of the day, it's not good for pvp gameplay.

Pterion87

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Im of the oppinion that heavy attack builds need a nerf. Since a while you try to nerf frontloading 1 shot things and thats a good thing imo. Heavy attacks can get insanel frontloaded to do increadible dmg. Imo you cant really nerf destro staff passive but the dk skill molten armaments def needs a nerf imo. +50% HA is too much. Change it to +30% that will still suffice imo. Especially in conjunction with off balance heavy attacks are OP too much and out of balance.

Still crying? DK was nerf already. Can you stop ask for nerfs for everything?

silver1surfer69

Liam12548 wrote: »

The heavy attack GANK dk setup definitely needs to be nerfed. I've taken 33k heavy attacks from these guys, who are in stealth 20 meters away. Even if they do not do the full setup with 500 ult/corrosive, they can still land 15k+ heavy attacks just standing without the additional buffs.

Thats exactly why i started this thread.

silver1surfer69

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Gankers are going to gank, and even if you nerf heavy attacks, you're still going to get one-shot sometimes by the random ganker trying to pick people off. Outside of gankers, heavy attacks and builds that use them really pose no problem. Therefore, I don't think they're a problem in the game.

I dont think to nerf heavy attacks is the way. Imo heavy attack builds - to be more specific - heavy attack builds that do HA from stealth and far away with insane damage, should be nerfed, that is some of the mechannics that synergize to this extreme dmg spikes.

When i read the answers so far, there seem to be a misunderstanding imo. A nnormal HA eg in mellee is a good mechanic (i mean we are used to it, its a bit counterintuitive imo designwise to do a HA (a blow with much force) to regain ressources) but anyway we are used to it and as it is its a good mechanic imo.

silver1surfer69

Pterion87 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Im of the oppinion that heavy attack builds need a nerf. Since a while you try to nerf frontloading 1 shot things and thats a good thing imo. Heavy attacks can get insanel frontloaded to do increadible dmg. Imo you cant really nerf destro staff passive but the dk skill molten armaments def needs a nerf imo. +50% HA is too much. Change it to +30% that will still suffice imo. Especially in conjunction with off balance heavy attacks are OP too much and out of balance.

Still crying? DK was nerf already. Can you stop ask for nerfs for everything?

Im a dk main, what is your point?