Vicious Death and sets such as... being used by ball groups

inDeviation

Wasn't the point of this set to break up ball groups? But if there are ball groups using this set then what is the point? they are able to use it and just destroy everyone, and a vicious death against them won't do anything due to their massive heals.

What do you guys think of this set scaled lowered based on how many people are in your group, just like rallying cry? Then maybe we can actually burst the ball groups.

Now that lag is fixed in this game, it has been great but there are still some other PVP combat things that I think can also be worked on.

keto3000

inDeviation wrote: »

Wasn't the point of this set to break up ball groups? But if there are ball groups using this set then what is the point? they are able to use it and just destroy everyone, and a vicious death against them won't do anything due to their massive heals.

What do you guys think of this set scaled lowered based on how many people are in your group, just like rallying cry? Then maybe we can actually burst the ball groups.

Now that lag is fixed in this game, it has been great but there are still some other PVP combat things that I think can also be worked on.

This is a brilliant idea and should be serioulsy considered by the the ZOS dev team, @ZOS_Gilliam!

Rallyiing Cry set's strength diminishes in potency depending on the size of your own group.

The same concept of diminishing return should be applied to these other "zerg-buster" sets, Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence.

Why let zerg group members all use these sets at the same time , overpowered & unscathed.

It seems to have the opposite effects on good gameplay than the devs actually intended.

kypranb14_ESO

keto3000 wrote: »

inDeviation wrote: »

Wasn't the point of this set to break up ball groups? But if there are ball groups using this set then what is the point? they are able to use it and just destroy everyone, and a vicious death against them won't do anything due to their massive heals.

What do you guys think of this set scaled lowered based on how many people are in your group, just like rallying cry? Then maybe we can actually burst the ball groups.

Now that lag is fixed in this game, it has been great but there are still some other PVP combat things that I think can also be worked on.

This is a brilliant idea and should be serioulsy considered by the the ZOS dev team, @ZOS_Gilliam!

Rallyiing Cry set's strength diminishes in potency depending on the size of your own group.

The same concept of diminishing return should be applied to these other "zerg-buster" sets, Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence.

Why let zerg group members all use these sets at the same time , overpowered & unscathed.

It seems to have the opposite effects on good gameplay than the devs actually intended.

I say we take it one step farther. Diminish these sets by the number of allies nearby, grouped or not. lol

Didgerion

Creating sets and skills to fight ball groups is wrong. Because they get exploited either by bombers or by the zerg groups themselves.

I say forget balancing zerg groups, instead adjust the keep mechanics. Make small groups and solo players more impactful on the map. If 2 players could quickly undo the work of a zerg group then forming zerg groups will be a waste of resources and the faction with a better group distribution will win over the one with the biggest zerg.

Let zerg group be invincible but make them obsolete and the game will balance itself.

Also get rid of campaign bonuses. Buffing the faction that already is dominating the map is not smart. Convert all the buffs into AP win points. Let faction take scrolls for points not for buffs.

Anti_Virus

Didgerion wrote: »

Creating sets and skills to fight ball groups is wrong. Because they get exploited either by bombers or by the zerg groups themselves.

I say forget balancing zerg groups, instead adjust the keep mechanics. Make small groups and solo players more impactful on the map. If 2 players could quickly undo the work of a zerg group then forming zerg groups will be a waste of resources and the faction with a better group distribution will win over the one with the biggest zerg.

Let zerg group be invincible but make them obsolete and the game will balance itself.

Also get rid of campaign bonuses. Buffing the faction that already is dominating the map is not smart. Convert all the buffs into AP win points. Let faction take scrolls for points not for buffs.

This

Cuddlypuff

A ball group is usually just 3 DDs, not 12 like some people seem to believe. There are even ball groups with 0 DDs but we don't talk about those here . They need bombing sets and harmony synergies to wipe zergs. Two bombers can technically wipe the same zerg but the only difference is you will die after the bomb instead of farming over and over. Question is do you want to share stale AP with 12 people or constantly move around for fresh, unshared AP.

Purge and proxy det nerfs have already gutted ball group offensive output to the point that you really shouldn't die if you aren't actively trying to bait a bomb on them or something like that. If you really want them to be completely irrelevant, petition for a set that negates or reduces all HoTs for 4 seconds in a 12m radius.

I honestly prefer ball groups getting damage buffs because the pugs they kill will off-set the lag they generate with skill spam. There's nothing worse than a group that only causes lag yet gets nothing done. Just a waste of precious server resources.

katorga

Adding an additional player increases damage and healing by 100%.

It adds 10 skills slots per additional player.

It effectively reduces GCD (more skills fired per GCD)

Nothing you can do about that.

Mr_Stach

In Dungeons and Dragons, there's something called Action Economy, the more things your team can do something, the more Damage/Healing/Hero Moments can happen before the enemies can do anything. This applies to Ball Groups. They can do more than one single person can, which is why they are so effective and why sets like Viscous Death and such were created, to use their numbers against them.

I don't think there's a way to truly balance Cyrodiil, there's always something that will overpower something else. You could limit the group size to 5 people and they will stack 5 groups of 5. You can try to do the diminishing returns thing but the same thing will happen.

Zos cannot balance players, because players will just find a way to circumvent any balance choices that they make,

Tommy_The_Gun

As long as stuff won't scale somehow with group size, there won't be any relevant nerf for "ball group" playstyle. Just saying.

It is not a rocket science that "group size" is probably the only thing that would make the game go: Oh, that is a organised 12 man group... and this is a 5 player small scale... and those are zerg-surfing solo players.

In other games or game modes, you have mm, so that the PvP experience is for the most part fair & balanced. In ESO, Cyrodiil is a mixed content - PvE, PvP solo, PvP small scale, PvP group etc. There is no way to add some kind of mm - that is why we have battle instead.

VD & other sets are not an issue, but rather lack of any solo vs group balancing mechanisms. Yes, I do not expect to kill a ball group solo lol, but when you need 50+ people & luck to kill 12 people - then it MIGHT mean that your game has a serious core balance problem. ... And even if you do kill them, then either one of them escapes & places a camp or they already have a NB scout waiting to place a camp. So you have to deal with all that one sided "fun" all over again...

Compared to effort it takes, there is no reward for beating a Ball Group. That is why for the most part people don't bother with them & wait for them to leave instead.

jaws343

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as stuff won't scale somehow with group size, there won't be any relevant nerf for "ball group" playstyle. Just saying.

It is not a rocket science that "group size" is probably the only thing that would make the game go: Oh, that is a organised 12 man group... and this is a 5 player small scale... and those are zerg-surfing solo players.

In other games or game modes, you have mm, so that the PvP experience is for the most part fair & balanced. In ESO, Cyrodiil is a mixed content - PvE, PvP solo, PvP small scale, PvP group etc. There is no way to add some kind of mm - that is why we have battle instead.

VD & other sets are not an issue, but rather lack of any solo vs group balancing mechanisms. Yes, I do not expect to kill a ball group solo lol, but when you need 50+ people & luck to kill 12 people - then it MIGHT mean that your game has a serious core balance problem. ... And even if you do kill them, then either one of them escapes & places a camp or they already have a NB scout waiting to place a camp. So you have to deal with all that one sided "fun" all over again...

Compated to effort it takes, there is no reward for beating a Ball Group. That is why for the most part people don't bother with them & wait for them to leave instead.

While I don't really think VD is a problem, they could add a group debuff to battlespirit of they really wanted to tone down group power.

Something like, -1% healing, -1% damage, and +1% damage taken per group member other than yourself.

It wouldn't be overwhelming to the point of really hurting much, but 11% less damage and healing is decent enough to tone groups down a bit, and favor smaller group or solo play.

fizl101

jaws343 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as stuff won't scale somehow with group size, there won't be any relevant nerf for "ball group" playstyle. Just saying.

It is not a rocket science that "group size" is probably the only thing that would make the game go: Oh, that is a organised 12 man group... and this is a 5 player small scale... and those are zerg-surfing solo players.

In other games or game modes, you have mm, so that the PvP experience is for the most part fair & balanced. In ESO, Cyrodiil is a mixed content - PvE, PvP solo, PvP small scale, PvP group etc. There is no way to add some kind of mm - that is why we have battle instead.

VD & other sets are not an issue, but rather lack of any solo vs group balancing mechanisms. Yes, I do not expect to kill a ball group solo lol, but when you need 50+ people & luck to kill 12 people - then it MIGHT mean that your game has a serious core balance problem. ... And even if you do kill them, then either one of them escapes & places a camp or they already have a NB scout waiting to place a camp. So you have to deal with all that one sided "fun" all over again...

Compated to effort it takes, there is no reward for beating a Ball Group. That is why for the most part people don't bother with them & wait for them to leave instead.

While I don't really think VD is a problem, they could add a group debuff to battlespirit of they really wanted to tone down group power.

Something like, -1% healing, -1% damage, and +1% damage taken per group member other than yourself.

It wouldn't be overwhelming to the point of really hurting much, but 11% less damage and healing is decent enough to tone groups down a bit, and favor smaller group or solo play.

I think it would also hurt groups that aren't ball groups with hyper organised movements and rotations. Casual groups/guilds going in wont have that tight healing etc necessarily

Thecompton73

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as stuff won't scale somehow with group size, there won't be any relevant nerf for "ball group" playstyle. Just saying.

It is not a rocket science that "group size" is probably the only thing that would make the game go: Oh, that is a organised 12 man group... and this is a 5 player small scale... and those are zerg-surfing solo players.

In other games or game modes, you have mm, so that the PvP experience is for the most part fair & balanced. In ESO, Cyrodiil is a mixed content - PvE, PvP solo, PvP small scale, PvP group etc. There is no way to add some kind of mm - that is why we have battle instead.

VD & other sets are not an issue, but rather lack of any solo vs group balancing mechanisms. Yes, I do not expect to kill a ball group solo lol, but when you need 50+ people & luck to kill 12 people - then it MIGHT mean that your game has a serious core balance problem. ... And even if you do kill them, then either one of them escapes & places a camp or they already have a NB scout waiting to place a camp. So you have to deal with all that one sided "fun" all over again...

Compared to effort it takes, there is no reward for beating a Ball Group. That is why for the most part people don't bother with them & wait for them to leave instead.

To those that might not know, that is NOT an exaggeration. Currently if a ball group gets inside a keep it can take 50 people using oils, meatbags and coldfire well over an hour to clear them out. You can't even wear them down by killing 1-2 here and there because when any of them go down the ball makes a pass back over the bodies and they have a Necro holding onto a resurrection ulti for those situations.
The groups doing this aren't even getting AP after the first 15 minutes as they've killed each defender mulitple times and they can't split up to be on both flags at the same time so they can't take the keep as long as enough people stay to fight them, they are just doing it for an ego boost and to grief the defenders.

Cuddlypuff

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As long as stuff won't scale somehow with group size, there won't be any relevant nerf for "ball group" playstyle. Just saying.

It is not a rocket science that "group size" is probably the only thing that would make the game go: Oh, that is a organised 12 man group... and this is a 5 player small scale... and those are zerg-surfing solo players.

In other games or game modes, you have mm, so that the PvP experience is for the most part fair & balanced. In ESO, Cyrodiil is a mixed content - PvE, PvP solo, PvP small scale, PvP group etc. There is no way to add some kind of mm - that is why we have battle instead.

VD & other sets are not an issue, but rather lack of any solo vs group balancing mechanisms. Yes, I do not expect to kill a ball group solo lol, but when you need 50+ people & luck to kill 12 people - then it MIGHT mean that your game has a serious core balance problem. ... And even if you do kill them, then either one of them escapes & places a camp or they already have a NB scout waiting to place a camp. So you have to deal with all that one sided "fun" all over again...

Compared to effort it takes, there is no reward for beating a Ball Group. That is why for the most part people don't bother with them & wait for them to leave instead.

To those that might not know, that is NOT an exaggeration. Currently if a ball group gets inside a keep it can take 50 people using oils, meatbags and coldfire well over an hour to clear them out. You can't even wear them down by killing 1-2 here and there because when any of them go down the ball makes a pass back over the bodies and they have a Necro holding onto a resurrection ulti for those situations.
The groups doing this aren't even getting AP after the first 15 minutes as they've killed each defender mulitple times and they can't split up to be on both flags at the same time so they can't take the keep as long as enough people stay to fight them, they are just doing it for an ego boost and to grief the defenders.

There's probably 2 ball groups on our campaign that can do this. The rest wipe or run to a handful of pugs. It's no surprise that the 2 groups that can do it co-ordinate their damage much better and actually get a few kills per ulti dump.