Are necromancer and warden any good at Cyrodiil/solo play?

Tesman85

I'm thinking about creating new characters, and am intrigued by the necromancer and warden classes. However, especially with warden it's hard to grasp the potential of the class. The necromancer is at least obviously suited for a damage class that can also leech health from the enemies, and so is very survivable. Also, playstyle has to be taken into account. I mainly solo play, but also get into frequent jaunts into Cyrodiil. But when I look at e.g. Alcast's necromancer builds, they are surprisingly gimmicky - that is, relying strongly on set procs. It happens I dislike fussing with the more complicated procs and prefer straight up, constant stat buffs (and yes, I'm aware that the build doesn't get as extreme numbers that way as a fully proc-buffed one). Also, at least Alcast's "powerful" magicka warden has even when buffed so low damage/crit/protection stats that I have been able to exceed them with other classes just by using crafted and overland sets (and that not counting skill/potion buffs). So it seems to me that at least magicka warden is kind of underpowered. It also seems there aren't that many warden or necro builds around in Cyrodiil, if the class kill achievement counts are to be believed, which further raises the question if they are any good. So I'm strongly considering sticking with the four other classes that I know how to outfit and play.

So, are these two classes rubbish for Cyrodiil and/or soloing? Is it possible to play a warden succesfully without the bear (dealing with summons are another thing I dislike)?

Thecompton73

Nearly every Necro I encounter in Cyro is wearing Dark Conversion which pulls people into their Ulti+ Avid Boneyard Combo. Most seem to be members of ball groups and their job is to charge forward into a grouping of enemies and do the combo then retreat back into the ballgroup as quickly as possible.
You don't really find many people playing it solo or small scale anymore, the class was very popular for that and used by all the sweaty players when it first came out but they've all moved on to play DK and Templar since both are currently so OP.

Tesman85

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Nearly every Necro I encounter in Cyro is wearing Dark Conversion which pulls people into their Ulti+ Avid Boneyard Combo. Most seem to be members of ball groups and their job is to charge forward into a grouping of enemies and do the combo then retreat back into the ballgroup as quickly as possible.
You don't really find many people playing it solo or small scale anymore, the class was very popular for that and used by all the sweaty players when it first came out but they've all moved on to play DK and Templar since both are currently so OP.

Hmm, so necromancer is a bit of a niche class nowadays? Well, no matter. I already created one, so I'll have to look at sets to see if it could be made into a viable solo build.

What are your thoughts about the warden? I took a better look at the skills of the class, and it looks like it could be a powerful solo class with a magicka build and an ice damage- buffing set. With front bar for damage (frost staff?) and back bar for healing (resto staff) it could be nearly unkillable in PvE at least. I mean, the class has powerful healing and nice damage abilities.

kadar

Warden and necro both excel at killing multiple targets at once. Necro is fairly reliant on taking their own synergy with avid boneyard. Stamina warden is crazy strong, magicka a bit less so, although with all the hybridization stuff it's getting harder to tell them apart lol.

Tesman85

Yes, both classes seem to have AoE DoT skills (and the necromancer has the scythe), which could be powerful when morphed and developed fully. As for warden's strength, I was confounded by Alcast's builds poor combat stats. Usually Alcast has so extreme buffed stats for his builds that it was very suprising that this time a build advertised as "powerful" had very high attributes, but otherwise stats which I had clearly exceeded with just crafted sets. But I guess it's a question of gear. After looking more closely at the skills it seems that with a frost-damage buffing set and maybe a crit/armor-boosting one - whichever stat one deems to be more needed - warden could be made into a very viable solo character.

So, I went and made an Altmer warden today. Time shows how nice it's to play, since at level 8 it's too early to say.

ESO_Nightingale

Tesman85 wrote: »

Yes, both classes seem to have AoE DoT skills (and the necromancer has the scythe), which could be powerful when morphed and developed fully. As for warden's strength, I was confounded by Alcast's builds poor combat stats. Usually Alcast has so extreme buffed stats for his builds that it was very suprising that this time a build advertised as "powerful" had very high attributes, but otherwise stats which I had clearly exceeded with just crafted sets. But I guess it's a question of gear. After looking more closely at the skills it seems that with a frost-damage buffing set and maybe a crit/armor-boosting one - whichever stat one deems to be more needed - warden could be made into a very viable solo character.

So, I went and made an Altmer warden today. Time shows how nice it's to play, since at level 8 it's too early to say.

magicka warden is literally the worst solo cyrodiil class you could pick due to having awful reliable cc (especially so next patch), big sustain issues and weak self healing. stamina warden is far better due to being able to use stamina costing skills without entirely crippling it's stamina sustain and therefore ability to cc break, sprint and roll dodge.

Tesman85

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

magicka warden is literally the worst solo cyrodiil class you could pick due to having awful reliable cc (especially so next patch), big sustain issues and weak self healing. stamina warden is far better due to being able to use stamina costing skills without entirely crippling it's stamina sustain and therefore ability to cc break, sprint and roll dodge.

Thanks! So my doubts about the class were somewhat founded on reality. Could the sustain problem be mitigated to a reasonable degree with e.g. using recovery sets/enchants? Looks like this character could be most suited to overland/public dungeon soloing then.

ESO_Nightingale

Tesman85 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

magicka warden is literally the worst solo cyrodiil class you could pick due to having awful reliable cc (especially so next patch), big sustain issues and weak self healing. stamina warden is far better due to being able to use stamina costing skills without entirely crippling it's stamina sustain and therefore ability to cc break, sprint and roll dodge.

Thanks! So my doubts about the class were somewhat founded on reality. Could the sustain problem be mitigated to a reasonable degree with e.g. using recovery sets/enchants? Looks like this character could be most suited to overland/public dungeon soloing then.

yes if you want to further cripple your healing and damage.

fred4

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

magicka warden is literally the worst solo cyrodiil class you could pick due to having awful reliable cc (especially so next patch), big sustain issues and weak self healing. stamina warden is far better due to being able to use stamina costing skills without entirely crippling it's stamina sustain and therefore ability to cc break, sprint and roll dodge.

Yes, this.

Tesman85 wrote: »

Thanks! So my doubts about the class were somewhat founded on reality. Could the sustain problem be mitigated to a reasonable degree with e.g. using recovery sets/enchants? Looks like this character could be most suited to overland/public dungeon soloing then.

Yeah, but everything is suited to that. If you see a YouTube video advertising a powerful magden build for public dungeons - which I have seen - that is an oxymoron. It means, yes, if you insist on playing a role-playing ice build, then magden is powerful in that environment ... but so is everything else.

Magden is probably best suited to the healer role in general. It may even be the best healer class, but as I don't play the class in that capacity you'd have to seek corroborating evidence for that elsewhere.

I have played magden in CP PvP like a sorc, e.g. stacking everything into magicka. This is a very old and probably outdated playstyle (also one that will be nerfed next patch), but the one that has worked best for me (I don't play magden often). A Dampen shield of 13K to 14K, backed by mag sustain glyphs and sustain food and the Atronach mundus on a Breton, makes you very hard to kill in a 1v1, but despite 55K magicka you suffer from all of the problems stated. Damage is lacklustre and good (emphasis on good) situational skills, e.g. stuns, gap closers and executes are missing. Using Cliff Racer as a spammable helps with self healing, but the delay of that skill and indeed the delay of everything, the Artic Blast stun (if you're using that) and of Deep Fissure will drive you nuts. Stamden can combo Dizzying, Subterranean, Dawnbreaker of Smiting and Executioner in various ways. As a magden, while everything has been hybridised, you lack the sustain for Dizzying and Executioner or you will compromise your build. You lack burst options. Hybridisation, as implemented now, is a funny thing. You are forced into favoring one stat over the other, or you compromise your damage. If you invest into magicka as a magden, you will feel constrained by your small stamina pool, should you use Executioner. A single combo may be OK, but if it takes more than one hit to finish the target, you will quickly lack stamina to break free, which is very dangerous. Conversely, if you build into stamina instead of magicka, you may find yourself magicka-constrained if you ever end up on defense, needing to spam a heal. You also don't get the big shield I was going for in my build.

If you were to go hybrid and use Executioner or Whirling Blades, that also makes you a melee character in terms of weaving, so what are you doing? I might try a hybrid magden with Whirling Blades and Dampen Magic some day, but I have a feeling it's not going to work. Cliff Racer deals more damage from range and demands a staff. It's such a borked class. A ranged execute, as magblade has in Impale and Merciless, can work in a melee build. Maybe ZOS thought Cliff Racer could be used as such, but a 15% damage increase on a fleeing target, from a delayed skill that shifts the damage into the next GCD half the time, that is nothing.

Furthermore, magden has a mobility issue and that is what really kills it for solo PvP. For solo PvP I'd recommend a nightblade (Cloak, Shadow Image), a sorc (Streak!), a stamina brawler spec (sprint and dodge roll sustain plus tankiness) or, I suppose, the meta classes this patch, magplar and mag DK. The latter two will be nerfed next patch. The mobility skill of warden, the screeching falcon skill, is no good. You need a skill that deals with snares and roots instead, e.g. Race Against Time or Mist Form. Notice something about those? Yeah, they're accessible to every class. No unique edge for warden there.

Tesman85

Looks like that for the warden a PvE healer is the best option, then. Fortunately, that's no problem since I do enjoy healing in dungeons. I have to look for suitable gear.

Thanks for advice!