Gap closer spamming

The7thLettter

What do others think of adding a similar feature to repeated use of gap close like they did with streak? This would make people think about their decision to use it against someone fleeing. There’s no end to which some players will go while chasing someone, so to me this makes sense if someone wants to repeatedly gap close themselves out of stam and get stunned then that should be their punishment.

Thoughts?

Nord_Raseri

No thank you

Amerises

Well streak is pretty powerful in that it doesn't require a target. If toppling Charge didn't need a target yet still did everything is already does, I would say that would make it extremely OP and needing some sort of nerf. Needing to actually target someone specifically, I think, is a pretty big difference.

Just my 2 cents 🤷‍♂️

WordsOfPower

I read this as "why can't I be allowed to run away without people catching me up? "

Gap closers are a good part of the game, and in fact are buggy as hell in their current form.

What is the advantage in just allowing people to disengage from any fight because gap closers have been nerfed in the way you suggest?

Why do we want a meta where its easier to flee?

The7thLettter

WordsOfPower wrote: »

I read this as "why can't I be allowed to run away without people catching me up? "

Gap closers are a good part of the game, and in fact are buggy as hell in their current form.

What is the advantage in just allowing people to disengage from any fight because gap closers have been nerfed in the way you suggest?

Why do we want a meta where its easier to flee?

This isnt a meta, I’m simply stating that gap closer should have a higher cost when spamming them. If I’m in a situation where I’m getting gap closed by 3 different people at once, with 7 more running behind them, what should I do to counter that?

taugrim

The7thLettter wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

I read this as "why can't I be allowed to run away without people catching me up? "

Gap closers are a good part of the game, and in fact are buggy as hell in their current form.

What is the advantage in just allowing people to disengage from any fight because gap closers have been nerfed in the way you suggest?

Why do we want a meta where its easier to flee?

This isnt a meta, I’m simply stating that gap closer should have a higher cost when spamming them. If I’m in a situation where I’m getting gap closed by 3 different people at once, with 7 more running behind them, what should I do to counter that?

Most of the gap closers have very meaningful costs associated with them already. The builds that use gap closers by definition tend to need them to stay in contact with enemies.

The thing you should do to counter that is not end up in that situation in the first place. 1v10 is not a winning scenario.

Didgerion

Nope, but here is a better idea: remove the cooldown from streak.

Didgerion

The7thLettter wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

I read this as "why can't I be allowed to run away without people catching me up? "

Gap closers are a good part of the game, and in fact are buggy as hell in their current form.

What is the advantage in just allowing people to disengage from any fight because gap closers have been nerfed in the way you suggest?

Why do we want a meta where its easier to flee?

This isnt a meta, I’m simply stating that gap closer should have a higher cost when spamming them. If I’m in a situation where I’m getting gap closed by 3 different people at once, with 7 more running behind them, what should I do to counter that?

Well you need to assess the situation before getting into the gap closer's reach and retreat sooner.

Wolfpaw

Wouldn't have to spam gap closers if they fixed them to make actual contact when more than 10 players are around.

The7thLettter

Man, I’m gonna assume with all of these comments none of you pvp solo or in a small group 😂

merpins

So let's take the 2-handed gap closer into consideration: one-bar builds use it as their main source of mobbing in PVE a lot of the time. They don't have the bar space to add any other multi-target attack, so the gap closer is the one to use.

Regardless of that outlier example which is already not an issue, I don't think it's an issue in general. Streak isn't a gap closer in the normal sense; it doesn't need a target. It's a teleport that lets you get out of a combat area, or can be used to close distance. The reason it increases in cost after the first cast is the same reason roll dodge increases in cost after the first use; you are able to get out of combat faster and without much worry if you can just spam those abilities. That use case is not the same for other gap closers.

The7thLettter

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

So let's take the 2-handed gap closer into consideration: one-bar builds use it as their main source of mobbing in PVE a lot of the time. They don't have the bar space to add any other multi-target attack, so the gap closer is the one to use.

Regardless of that outlier example which is already not an issue, I don't think it's an issue in general. Streak isn't a gap closer in the normal sense; it doesn't need a target. It's a teleport that lets you get out of a combat area, or can be used to close distance. The reason it increases in cost after the first cast is the same reason roll dodge increases in cost after the first use; you are able to get out of combat faster and without much worry if you can just spam those abilities. That use case is not the same for other gap closers.

But one could argue the same exact thing about spamming gap closer… if you’re going to punish someone trying to get away from someone with those abilities then the same should be done to someone spamming one ability on the one escaping 😂 like what is that logic?

Amerises

You can't perform any other blink, Charge, or jump without a target. That's the logic.

FirmamentOfStars

The7thLettter wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

So let's take the 2-handed gap closer into consideration: one-bar builds use it as their main source of mobbing in PVE a lot of the time. They don't have the bar space to add any other multi-target attack, so the gap closer is the one to use.

Regardless of that outlier example which is already not an issue, I don't think it's an issue in general. Streak isn't a gap closer in the normal sense; it doesn't need a target. It's a teleport that lets you get out of a combat area, or can be used to close distance. The reason it increases in cost after the first cast is the same reason roll dodge increases in cost after the first use; you are able to get out of combat faster and without much worry if you can just spam those abilities. That use case is not the same for other gap closers.

But one could argue the same exact thing about spamming gap closer… if you’re going to punish someone trying to get away from someone with those abilities then the same should be done to someone spamming one ability on the one escaping 😂 like what is that logic?

That is only a logic you ntrying to make up.
Ramping cost of escaping tools has some reasoning as others said. It is an easy ticket out of tight situations, which should not happen that often. Additionaly gaining some distance over basic movement speed and available boni to that, makes disangaging already quite easier. Therefore the devs decided that easy out of danger skills should have a ramping cost. But nowhere did anyone decide, that skills to close gaps should do the same. As others stated, gapclosers need a target and therefore are already inferior to a skill like streak, which can be used much more freely. Additionally, if chasing somebody should be made equal punishing to fleeing, then there would be no punishment for doing bad decisions. If you have to flee, then you made a bad decision earlier and having a ramping cost on that is your punishment. I think this is a fair and balanced risk and reward situation. And I also would say, that sorcs and nbs still get away too easely in many situations, where they just should have died instead as a result of a bad desicion.

The7thLettter

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

The7thLettter wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

So let's take the 2-handed gap closer into consideration: one-bar builds use it as their main source of mobbing in PVE a lot of the time. They don't have the bar space to add any other multi-target attack, so the gap closer is the one to use.

Regardless of that outlier example which is already not an issue, I don't think it's an issue in general. Streak isn't a gap closer in the normal sense; it doesn't need a target. It's a teleport that lets you get out of a combat area, or can be used to close distance. The reason it increases in cost after the first cast is the same reason roll dodge increases in cost after the first use; you are able to get out of combat faster and without much worry if you can just spam those abilities. That use case is not the same for other gap closers.

But one could argue the same exact thing about spamming gap closer… if you’re going to punish someone trying to get away from someone with those abilities then the same should be done to someone spamming one ability on the one escaping 😂 like what is that logic?

That is only a logic you ntrying to make up.
Ramping cost of escaping tools has some reasoning as others said. It is an easy ticket out of tight situations, which should not happen that often. Additionaly gaining some distance over basic movement speed and available boni to that, makes disangaging already quite easier. Therefore the devs decided that easy out of danger skills should have a ramping cost. But nowhere did anyone decide, that skills to close gaps should do the same. As others stated, gapclosers need a target and therefore are already inferior to a skill like streak, which can be used much more freely. Additionally, if chasing somebody should be made equal punishing to fleeing, then there would be no punishment for doing bad decisions. If you have to flee, then you made a bad decision earlier and having a ramping cost on that is your punishment. I think this is a fair and balanced risk and reward situation. And I also would say, that sorcs and nbs still get away too easely in many situations, where they just should have died instead as a result of a bad desicion.

Again, these arguments you have don’t make sense. “ Additionally, if chasing somebody should be made equal punishing to fleeing, then there would be no punishment for doing bad decisions.” Could you elaborate on this please? And I don’t disagree that sorc and nightblades have easy outs but that because as a class they aren’t able to sustain heavy pressure. If I’m on a stamplar and I’m simply taking a resource in cyrodiil and then 27 people on a different alliance all show up and chase me to the end of oblivion, is that me putting myself in a bad situation? Or is that just bad luck? I shouldn’t be punished for being put in that situation, and the ones that continuously gap close have no reason not to keep doing cause they know eventually, as much dodging and kiting and potions I can do/take, eventually all 27 will keep chasing and get me. There’s simply just no counter play to this. Putting a simple ramp in cost will slightly mitigate these situations.

Please use logic when looking at this situation.

divnyi

The7thLettter wrote: »

If I’m on a stamplar and I’m simply taking a resource in cyrodiil and then 27 people on a different alliance all show up and chase me to the end of oblivion, is that me putting myself in a bad situation?

Yes. 1v27 you should die in any possible scenario.

Tommy_The_Gun

Teleport Strike experience would be like:
1 - *presses button* - nothing happens.
2 - *presses button* - nothing happens.
3 - *presses button* - nothing happens.
4 - *presses button* - "clich" sound effect - You are out of resources...

Meanwhile allies & enemies look at you as if you were having a seizure as the gap closer animation breaks every time you try to use it because damn thing has cast time...

The7thLettter

divnyi wrote: »

The7thLettter wrote: »

If I’m on a stamplar and I’m simply taking a resource in cyrodiil and then 27 people on a different alliance all show up and chase me to the end of oblivion, is that me putting myself in a bad situation?

Yes. 1v27 you should die in any possible scenario.

Yes I agree, I shouldn’t have used 27 but maybe 5-6. If I’m kiting a certain area and 2 of those people are spamming one ability over and over and over to keep up with me, they should be punished. Repeatedly spamming one button should have some consequences.

CameraBeardThePirate

I pvp solo or small group almost exclusively. Gap closers absolutely do not need a nerf. They're there so that people can't just run away from fights. The "punishment" for spamming it to catch up to you is that A) they're using resources just to keep up with you (and you should be able to outheal the damage any of the gap closers do), and B ) they're likely starting to get separated and overextend from their group while chasing you.

You mentioned not having a counter to a group of 7-10 chasing you and the counter to that is easy: don't bite off more than you can chew, and definitely don't fight outnumbered in an open field. Use LoS to funnel people where you want them, and build in speed so that you can get out of range of gap closers with the help of LoS.

Not everyone can afford to run a gap closer anyways, and running a gap closer for most classes is sacrificing a skill slot that they could use for something else like survivability. If you're getting zerged down at a resource when you try to cap it by yourself, a ramping cost on gap closers won't change anything because there's still going to be plenty of people that'll be able to keep up with you. Don't try to take resources by yourself without expecting a really outnumbered fight.

The7thLettter

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I pvp solo or small group almost exclusively. Gap closers absolutely do not need a nerf. They're there so that people can't just run away from fights. The "punishment" for spamming it to catch up to you is that A) they're using resources just to keep up with you (and you should be able to outheal the damage any of the gap closers do), and B ) they're likely starting to get separated and overextend from their group while chasing you.

You mentioned not having a counter to a group of 7-10 chasing you and the counter to that is easy: don't bite off more than you can chew, and definitely don't fight outnumbered in an open field. Use LoS to funnel people where you want them, and build in speed so that you can get out of range of gap closers with the help of LoS.

Not everyone can afford to run a gap closer anyways, and running a gap closer for most classes is sacrificing a skill slot that they could use for something else like survivability. If you're getting zerged down at a resource when you try to cap it by yourself, a ramping cost on gap closers won't change anything because there's still going to be plenty of people that'll be able to keep up with you. Don't try to take resources by yourself without expecting a really outnumbered fight.

I understand what you’re saying very much, but when there’s multiple spamming invasion, toppling, and stampede all with stun/snares attached to them it gets out of hand at certain points. I understand positioning and being in a field with minimal los, is sometimes unavoidable. I guess I just need to start running in bigger groups to combat the zerginess that the hype has created again.

FirmamentOfStars

The7thLettter wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

The7thLettter wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

So let's take the 2-handed gap closer into consideration: one-bar builds use it as their main source of mobbing in PVE a lot of the time. They don't have the bar space to add any other multi-target attack, so the gap closer is the one to use.

Regardless of that outlier example which is already not an issue, I don't think it's an issue in general. Streak isn't a gap closer in the normal sense; it doesn't need a target. It's a teleport that lets you get out of a combat area, or can be used to close distance. The reason it increases in cost after the first cast is the same reason roll dodge increases in cost after the first use; you are able to get out of combat faster and without much worry if you can just spam those abilities. That use case is not the same for other gap closers.

But one could argue the same exact thing about spamming gap closer… if you’re going to punish someone trying to get away from someone with those abilities then the same should be done to someone spamming one ability on the one escaping 😂 like what is that logic?

That is only a logic you ntrying to make up.
Ramping cost of escaping tools has some reasoning as others said. It is an easy ticket out of tight situations, which should not happen that often. Additionaly gaining some distance over basic movement speed and available boni to that, makes disangaging already quite easier. Therefore the devs decided that easy out of danger skills should have a ramping cost. But nowhere did anyone decide, that skills to close gaps should do the same. As others stated, gapclosers need a target and therefore are already inferior to a skill like streak, which can be used much more freely. Additionally, if chasing somebody should be made equal punishing to fleeing, then there would be no punishment for doing bad decisions. If you have to flee, then you made a bad decision earlier and having a ramping cost on that is your punishment. I think this is a fair and balanced risk and reward situation. And I also would say, that sorcs and nbs still get away too easely in many situations, where they just should have died instead as a result of a bad desicion.

Again, these arguments you have don’t make sense. “ Additionally, if chasing somebody should be made equal punishing to fleeing, then there would be no punishment for doing bad decisions.” Could you elaborate on this please? And I don’t disagree that sorc and nightblades have easy outs but that because as a class they aren’t able to sustain heavy pressure. If I’m on a stamplar and I’m simply taking a resource in cyrodiil and then 27 people on a different alliance all show up and chase me to the end of oblivion, is that me putting myself in a bad situation? Or is that just bad luck? I shouldn’t be punished for being put in that situation, and the ones that continuously gap close have no reason not to keep doing cause they know eventually, as much dodging and kiting and potions I can do/take, eventually all 27 will keep chasing and get me. There’s simply just no counter play to this. Putting a simple ramp in cost will slightly mitigate these situations.

Please use logic when looking at this situation.

I do not see, where my point is not logic for you. If you capture a resource and 27 people come up to not let you do this, you should in advance be prepared for this situation and on sight already moving towards and object you can use to your advantage (like every resource has a tower you can go into). Therefore for taking a resource and not being ready to LOS is in my opinion a bad situation and a bad decision. If you just run without any object to LOS, you will be catched by gapclosers. But gap closers work very poorly with physical objects between you and your enemy, so I recommend using LOS more to your advantage. Somebody else said, people spend resources to catch up with gap closers, they might overextend and let their buffs fall off. I would say thats a fitting punishment for them.

I hope this is logic enough for you, [snip]
[edited for mild baiting]

divnyi

The7thLettter wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

The7thLettter wrote: »

If I’m on a stamplar and I’m simply taking a resource in cyrodiil and then 27 people on a different alliance all show up and chase me to the end of oblivion, is that me putting myself in a bad situation?

Yes. 1v27 you should die in any possible scenario.

Yes I agree, I shouldn’t have used 27 but maybe 5-6. If I’m kiting a certain area and 2 of those people are spamming one ability over and over and over to keep up with me, they should be punished. Repeatedly spamming one button should have some consequences.

It has consequences. All those gap closers have much higher cost than spammables, while also doing less damage. While also LoS-breakable as the rest of things.

MEBengalsFan2001

The7thLettter wrote: »

What do others think of adding a similar feature to repeated use of gap close like they did with streak? This would make people think about their decision to use it against someone fleeing. There’s no end to which some players will go while chasing someone, so to me this makes sense if someone wants to repeatedly gap close themselves out of stam and get stunned then that should be their punishment.

Thoughts?

I see your point of view and agree somewhat that spamming a gap closer, say toppling charge, to keep up with a fleeing target should cost more a resources.

If gap closers get a cost increase the following also needs to be done.

• Crowd Control effects and immunity need adjustments/fixed.
• Cost of playing hopscotch to avoid damage should match the cost of using dodge roll for stamina.
• Make PVP only gear and remove the usage of any gear anywhere so this way PVP players know what gear can be used in PVP and what gear can't be used in PVP; this can help improve system performance since the devs can adjust what can be used in PVP given that some gears sets really strain the system when used by large groups an example is the DC gear set.

Iriidius

Nerfing gap closers would make horse trolls much more annoying. You are a bad player and a coward if you run away from a fair 1v27. Only because the enemy Player is calling friends in a duell that is not a reason to leave the duell. Running away from fights is just Trolling because all fights are fair.
There is no difference between attacking and fighting a zerg or running away from a zerg you dont want to fight to escape them. Nobody should survive 27v1 even if he is riding away as soon as he sees the 27. Solo players should be free ap for the zerg.

WordsOfPower

The7thLettter wrote: »

If I’m on a stamplar and I’m simply taking a resource in cyrodiil and then 27 people on a different alliance all show up and chase me to the end of oblivion, is that me putting myself in a bad situation? Or is that just bad luck? I shouldn’t be punished for being put in that situation, and the ones that continuously gap close have no reason not to keep doing cause they know eventually, as much dodging and kiting and potions I can do/take, eventually all 27 will keep chasing and get me. There’s simply just no counter play to this

The level of your sense of entitlement that you should be able to do PvE in Cyrodiil (taking resources by yourself id PvE) without any negative consequences, is baffling to me.

Just go in at 4am and you can capture the whole map by yourself if you don't want to interact with other human beings.

rbfrgsp

The7thLettter wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

So let's take the 2-handed gap closer into consideration: one-bar builds use it as their main source of mobbing in PVE a lot of the time. They don't have the bar space to add any other multi-target attack, so the gap closer is the one to use.

Regardless of that outlier example which is already not an issue, I don't think it's an issue in general. Streak isn't a gap closer in the normal sense; it doesn't need a target. It's a teleport that lets you get out of a combat area, or can be used to close distance. The reason it increases in cost after the first cast is the same reason roll dodge increases in cost after the first use; you are able to get out of combat faster and without much worry if you can just spam those abilities. That use case is not the same for other gap closers.

But one could argue the same exact thing about spamming gap closer… if you’re going to punish someone trying to get away from someone with those abilities then the same should be done to someone spamming one ability on the one escaping 😂 like what is that logic?

Ideally, every play style should have a counterplay. The counterplay to fleeing is gap closing. The counter play to pressure is crowd controls / snares.

Wolfpaw

I tossed Charge on my bar last night, because I never use it, and it was a blast putting the hurt on Sorcs and their constant tag and Streak. Good counter to builds that like to interrupt/dmg and run away repeatedly.

TechMaybeHic

Streaking away is as effective against 5 as it is one as it's always as good of a decision. Gap closing in the penalty is poor decision now puts you in as a focused target for however many enemies there are obviously scaling up.

It's the same as a matter of risk as melee vs that of ranged.

axi

The7thLettter wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

I read this as "why can't I be allowed to run away without people catching me up? "

Gap closers are a good part of the game, and in fact are buggy as hell in their current form.

What is the advantage in just allowing people to disengage from any fight because gap closers have been nerfed in the way you suggest?

Why do we want a meta where its easier to flee?

This isnt a meta, I’m simply stating that gap closer should have a higher cost when spamming them. If I’m in a situation where I’m getting gap closed by 3 different people at once, with 7 more running behind them, what should I do to counter that?

If You are being chased by 10 people and 3 of the is prepared to stay on Your back why do You expect to survive that in a first place? What can You do against that chase is sutiational and depends of many factors like for example the setup You play on or place where the chase is happening. Setups like sorc or nb have clear upperhand in this type of situations. Very often though You are simply meant to die. It's a 10v1 after all and if they are not total noobs they should kill You.

deleted221205-002626

The7thLettter wrote: »

What do others think of adding a similar feature to repeated use of gap close like they did with streak? This would make people think about their decision to use it against someone fleeing. There’s no end to which some players will go while chasing someone, so to me this makes sense if someone wants to repeatedly gap close themselves out of stam and get stunned then that should be their punishment.

Thoughts?

Streak is far more powerful and like previously mentioned does require a target.. with toppling its often the target gets JUST out of reach and you cannot perform toppling charge and they get away

ResidentContrarian

The7thLettter wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

I read this as "why can't I be allowed to run away without people catching me up? "

Gap closers are a good part of the game, and in fact are buggy as hell in their current form.

What is the advantage in just allowing people to disengage from any fight because gap closers have been nerfed in the way you suggest?

Why do we want a meta where its easier to flee?

This isnt a meta, I’m simply stating that gap closer should have a higher cost when spamming them. If I’m in a situation where I’m getting gap closed by 3 different people at once, with 7 more running behind them, what should I do to counter that?

The answer is to make use of roll, block, sprint, immobolize, CC, and snare instead of just one or two of them.

If that doesn't work, it must be accepted you will not win. The game does not need to change to make playing outnumbered easier.

Also, mages guild volcanic rune or trap beast at your feet works great against gap close spammers.