What's strange to me is that we didn't see the insurgence of bash builds

divnyi

I've made this build long time ago, didn't have enough time to do the vid back then. It's still top-tier meta.

https://youtu.be/9kPZWNa_jtw

People are sleeping on OP stuff, to the point where it would be nerfed next patch but barely anyone played it in this patch.

sharquez

Been maining Bash Sorc this patch. Definitely can say without a doubt bash builds are decidedly not overpowered. I have some good footage of stomping and of getting stomped.
I'd say they are in their good little niche this patch but for some ungodly reason the fickle balance team wants to take it away again.

They are gonna gut bash from no CP BGs the only place where I feel like I can even get away with it and make it a CP star for every skill line to use to now make even more polarizing builds better, in content no one can play because it lags or is all zergs (Cyro) or has next to no players (IC).

Was even gonna goild out jewlery for my bash build but nope glad I didn't
Why can mag DKs hit 11k FOO and dot applicators and 20k whips 30k leaps With 1 offensive set

But I cant have a 23k bash after blocking an attack every 5 seconds when I have invested everything into making my meme bash build good at the determent to all other abilities being effective?

divnyi

sharquez wrote: »

Why can mag DKs hit 11k FOO and dot applicators and 20k whips 30k leaps With 1 offensive set

But I cant have a 23k bash after blocking an attack every 5 seconds when I have invested everything into making my meme bash build good at the determent to all other abilities being effective?

You really don't see why you can't have spammable that does more damage each second (yes you can block each second) than fully charged whip? All while you can add 2 bashes inbetween in the same GCD?

Only limit for this gameplay is the amount of stamina it uses. But once you cover that field, it does more damage than anything else, and it's not limited burst like Caluurions.

sharquez

divnyi wrote: »

You really don't see why you can't have spammable that does more damage each second (yes you can block each second) than fully charged whip? All while you can add 2 bashes inbetween in the same GCD?

Only limit for this gameplay is the amount of stamina it uses. But once you cover that field, it does more damage than anything else, and it's not limited burst like Caluurions.

That passive is being given to every ability in exchange for a champ star next patch... So it must not have been over performing enough cause now every one has it, just not in no cp.

And the stamina hungryness of the build is crippiling on classes that cant sustain it. Jeez necro has the best bash burst of all and you will run your self dry trying to catch people since you broadcast to the whole battle field a big death signal.

What I gotta wonder is why would you self sabotage by making a thread calling for nerfs on a build your'e clearly enjoying? Finding a win on non standard meta builds is gettign harder and harder and theres finally something carving out a niche in gameplay that has some kind of effectiveness and now its "over powered?"

divnyi

sharquez wrote: »

What I gotta wonder is why would you self sabotage by making a thread calling for nerfs

Nerfs are already there.

And anyway, I don't buy this "don't speak about it or they will nerf" thing.
It implies devs actually pay attention to the feedback

FirmamentOfStars

Bash builds are not that strong. They can pugstomp new players, but you can do that with a nightblade and caluurion, magdk can do that with just max stack molten whip and does not even have to use a whole 5 piece set for that plus 2-3 glyphs. A necro can pugstomp easely with graverobber synergy, etc etc.

As said, you can pug stomp with a bash build, but that its. A good player will have no issues fighting a bash build. On the contrary, you yourself invest into a sustain set aswell to cover the quite big stamina drain bash builds require, and therefore cripple your own heals and other damage sources even more. Meanwhile the average meta build has almost or even same damage, no sustain issues and far better heals.

So why we dont see any insurgence of bash builds?
First off, because they are not OP and not any better than most other meta builds. They can pugstomp, which any other meta build is capable of.
Secondly because your stats suffer for having decent bash damage, therefore sustain and healing is worse than other meta builds.
Third point is, that you actually have to use an additional mechanic (bashing) to actually deal decent damage, so an increase of APM, therefore many people wont bother with it (i mean some people still complain about light attack weaving). To make a bash build really shine, you need to light attack, power slam into bash and even in your video I see you fail doing that quite often.

In conclusion, its too much hassle and investing into the build to achieve what every other meta build can do.

WordsOfPower

As much as I love him, could the reason behind less uptake of Bash builds be that Fragman Saul hasn't been making as many videos?

divnyi

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Bash builds are not that strong. They can pugstomp new players, ...
As said, you can pug stomp with a bash build, but that its.

I do kill some decent DKs in 1v1 in the vid. In one case, even DK covered by his group on a voicechat.
Also what is PUG? I do BGs mostly. It throws me into best players already.

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

On the contrary, you yourself invest into a sustain set aswell to cover the quite big stamina drain bash builds require, and therefore cripple your own heals and other damage sources even more.

Darloc Brae allows to spam magica and stamina heals, invis, shades as well as block without the fear of running out of gas. It is more healing than without it. No glyphs would grant you that amount of sustain.

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

To make a bash build really shine, you need to light attack, power slam into bash and even in your video I see you fail doing that quite often.

But it does much more damage per spammable even if you whiff LA or some bashes, perfect execution is extra damage on top.

FirmamentOfStars

divnyi wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Bash builds are not that strong. They can pugstomp new players, ...
As said, you can pug stomp with a bash build, but that its.

I do kill some decent DKs in 1v1 in the vid. In one case, even DK covered by his group on a voicechat.
Also what is PUG? I do BGs mostly. It throws me into best players already.

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

On the contrary, you yourself invest into a sustain set aswell to cover the quite big stamina drain bash builds require, and therefore cripple your own heals and other damage sources even more.

Darloc Brae allows to spam magica and stamina heals, invis, shades as well as block without the fear of running out of gas. It is more healing than without it. No glyphs would grant you that amount of sustain.

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

To make a bash build really shine, you need to light attack, power slam into bash and even in your video I see you fail doing that quite often.

But it does much more damage per spammable even if you whiff LA or some bashes, perfect execution is extra damage on top.

When did bgs become a standard measure for skill? I have not seen one good player in your video, a few familiar names from PvP, but no one I know for being a good player. So be careful with "best players" in conjunction with bgs.

Darloc Brae only works on nightblades, so no option for any other class as a sustain set. And still using infused bash damage glyphs will make you miss like 800 unbuffed weapon or spelldamage, which is huge.

Bash builds do good damage over a short period of time, but any other class, especially burst classes like nightblades, wardens and necros can do the same without investing in bashing. And the other classes like dks and templar generally generate more damage through long term pressure.

I played bash build myself recently a bit and it is a nice and welcoming change with the bash mechanic, but I quickly realized its limits. Also I played against very good players with bash builds and 1v1 they were really not scary at all.

divnyi

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Bash builds are not that strong. They can pugstomp new players, ...
As said, you can pug stomp with a bash build, but that its.

I do kill some decent DKs in 1v1 in the vid. In one case, even DK covered by his group on a voicechat.
Also what is PUG? I do BGs mostly. It throws me into best players already.

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

On the contrary, you yourself invest into a sustain set aswell to cover the quite big stamina drain bash builds require, and therefore cripple your own heals and other damage sources even more.

Darloc Brae allows to spam magica and stamina heals, invis, shades as well as block without the fear of running out of gas. It is more healing than without it. No glyphs would grant you that amount of sustain.

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

To make a bash build really shine, you need to light attack, power slam into bash and even in your video I see you fail doing that quite often.

But it does much more damage per spammable even if you whiff LA or some bashes, perfect execution is extra damage on top.

When did bgs become a standard measure for skill?

Since it's the only mode, bar duels, where game doesn't lag.

Silversmith

The best skill in that build is Cloak of Shadows. Spamable, no cooldown stealth skill that gives 100% critical chance. No other mmo has ever given that level of stealth skill without a 20-30 second cooldown minimum.

divnyi

@Silversmith don't derail the thread. Cloak been there since the beginning of time, power bash scaling from bash damage is there for the first update.

xDeusEJRx

Bash builds are really powerful, but they require more skill and preparation than normal builds do.
Meaning people aren't gonna run it cause the learning curve is more demanding than playing something like a MagDK or Magplar, which is what people would rather go and play.

Even when it got buffed I never imagined many people would run bash setups just because it's not an easy way to get kills like PB, Pre-change DC/Hrothgar and being a MagDK/MagPlar

sharquez

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Bash builds are really powerful, but they require more skill and preparation than normal builds do.
Meaning people aren't gonna run it cause the learning curve is more demanding than playing something like a MagDK or Magplar, which is what people would rather go and play.

Even when it got buffed I never imagined many people would run bash setups just because it's not an easy way to get kills like PB, Pre-change DC/Hrothgar and being a MagDK/MagPlar

It's like another poster above said its way more APM/S than anything else that effectively deals damage so why do a bash combo when you can just:
meteor -> javlin -> jesus beam
Fossilize -> Whip -> Leap
Shalks -> DB -> Spin
Blast Bones -> Graverobber -> w/e
HA w/ Caluurions
etc.

fred4

My experience with the few times I ran into bash builds has been: "Oh, what's this annoying thing eating away at me?" I think I died once, the first time I encountered such a build. Then I adjusted, backing off as needed. They weren't bursty enough to be a serious threat. Could be the people I ran into were not good PvPers, I suppose.