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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/653550/

A question of the Druids after watching the ESO Live of High Isle

Eporem
Eporem
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It was mentioned in this that Druids and the Wyrd share the same origins - would this origin be the Ehlnofey?
  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
    WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    Go on the PTS and ask them. ;)

    (No, seriously, the zone isn’t out yet, telling you more would be a spoiler.)
    #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
    A useful explanation for how RNG works

    Whitestrake’s Mayhem PSA: While battling through the Imperial City, don’t forget you can return to base quickly by queuing for a Cyrodiil campaign, then queuing back to IC!
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    Go on the PTS and ask them. ;)

    (No, seriously, the zone isn’t out yet, telling you more would be a spoiler.)

    Could you whisper or dm me the more? I don't mind spoilers - I just wished to know if I should create another character that would be lore friendly to this chapter in my mind or to play a character that was created long ago that might fit into this (which I would rather do instead of creating anew)
  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
    WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    Eporem wrote: »
    Go on the PTS and ask them. ;)

    (No, seriously, the zone isn’t out yet, telling you more would be a spoiler.)

    Could you whisper or dm me the more? I don't mind spoilers - I just wished to know if I should create another character that would be lore friendly to this chapter in my mind or to play a character that was created long ago that might fit into this (which I would rather do instead of creating anew)

    Yes, done.
    #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
    A useful explanation for how RNG works

    Whitestrake’s Mayhem PSA: While battling through the Imperial City, don’t forget you can return to base quickly by queuing for a Cyrodiil campaign, then queuing back to IC!
  • Aliyavana
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  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    Aliyavana wrote: »

    curious now why it was the Ritual they praised above all other stars:)

    and then came across this when playing this day...

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Wyresses:_The_Name-Daughters
    Edited by Eporem on May 1, 2022 6:42PM
  • Ratzkifal
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    Aliyavana wrote: »

    That is one very confusing book.

    It makes it sound like the "Manmer" were there before the Elves came to High Rock and taught them about Y'ffre, which would be weird, because of what we know about how the Bretons came to be. There couldn't have been "Manmer" before the arrival of Mer. Neither did the Manmer "roam" High Rock as described while they were still enslaved, so that's probably the unreliable narrator here who hasn't been around during the time of the Direnni Hegemony and just made that part up because it sounds nicer or something.
    Or maybe he is actually describing Nedes at first but simplified it to "Manmer" for better understanding, but actually meant "soon-to-be-Manmer", to avoid confusion during the transition and to make a distinction towards the other people of Nedic origin. That would also explain it. That also makes sense with worshipping the Ritual, as the Cult of the Stars is of Nedic origin as well. Since this explanation fits the established lore better, I think this interpretation is probably the correct one and there were no Manmer before the Direnni came. Phew. Lore crisis averted.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »

    That is one very confusing book.

    It makes it sound like the "Manmer" were there before the Elves came to High Rock and taught them about Y'ffre, which would be weird, because of what we know about how the Bretons came to be. There couldn't have been "Manmer" before the arrival of Mer. Neither did the Manmer "roam" High Rock as described while they were still enslaved, so that's probably the unreliable narrator here who hasn't been around during the time of the Direnni Hegemony and just made that part up because it sounds nicer or something.
    Or maybe he is actually describing Nedes at first but simplified it to "Manmer" for better understanding, but actually meant "soon-to-be-Manmer", to avoid confusion during the transition and to make a distinction towards the other people of Nedic origin. That would also explain it. That also makes sense with worshipping the Ritual, as the Cult of the Stars is of Nedic origin as well. Since this explanation fits the established lore better, I think this interpretation is probably the correct one and there were no Manmer before the Direnni came. Phew. Lore crisis averted.

    it was confirmed to be unintentional
  • Atharaon
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    I never read Sons and Daughters of Anui-El as referring to elves, since Anui-El is the Soul of All Things, not just elves. Auri-El, I'd read as elves, but Anui-El I read as the Aedra, or ada generally. Having said that, I do think there were elves in High Rock that predated the Direnni.
    it was confirmed to be unintentional

    Oh? Where was that confirmed?
  • Eporem
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    What makes sense to me or to a character played that was raised by the Beldama Wyrd is in perceiving Anui-El as Order as opposed to Chaos, or as et’Ada, the Elhnofey, the Earth bones, the original spirits of earth air and water. (even though maybe a myth:))

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ehlnofey
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beldama_Wyrd

    and maybe @Atharaon that elves in High Rock that might have predated the Direnni were these spirits as well for from the article of the Ehlnofey there is this mentioned...

    They are depicted as vaguely Elven in shape, but featureless, similar to how they live on in fading memory.

    Edited by Eporem on May 3, 2022 11:57AM
  • Atharaon
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    Eporem wrote: »
    What makes sense to me or to a character played that was raised by the Beldama Wyrd is in perceiving Anui-El as Order as opposed to Chaos, or as et’Ada, the Elhnofey, the Earth bones, the original spirits of earth air and water. (even though maybe a myth:))

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ehlnofey
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beldama_Wyrd

    and maybe @Atharaon that elves in High Rock that might have predated the Direnni were these spirits as well for from the article of the Ehlnofey there is this mentioned...

    They are depicted as vaguely Elven in shape, but featureless, similar to how they live on in fading memory.

    Yes, that's my take too: the nature spirits/fey/ada/Aedra/somethings, through whatever contact the Manmer had with them via ritual or whatever, gave the name Y'ffre to them to describe what they revered.

    That's an intriguing suggestion about the Ehlnofey-as-elves. I have no doubt there were (and are) Ehlnofey in High Rock but I'm not sure they'd be confused with elves. There are quite a few sources saying elves inhabited High Rock before humans did, yet there's a common belief among the fanbase generally that Nedes somehow predated the elves there, usually based on a misunderstanding of a fallible in-character dev statement or the words of Michael Kirkbride (who ironically also said elves were always in Tamriel).

    Even so, there's a huge issue of missing information about the Direnni between when Cygnus supposedly found Adamantine Tower (middle-Merethic) and the rise of the Hegemony (now confirmed to be earlier than the previously known date of 1E 355 by about 25-30 years at least). I managed to ask both Lawrence Schick and Ted Peterson their thoughts. Both were of a similar mind that the elves were there first (not including beastfolk/fey), but that they probably weren't Direnni. In fact, while Peterson suggested that the Direnni effectively "adopted" the history of their elven predecessors as their own, Schick said he thinks the Direnni were predated in Balfiera by other elves and that the Cygnus tale was a bit of propaganda. That would explain the weird discrepancy in the new tutorial where the obviously Aldmeri architecture apparently predates that Clan's arrival as well as the Hegemony dating issues.

    One thing worth noting is I think people are reading too much into this text. It doesn't say when elves arrived generally (even if one assumes the daughters and sons of Anuiel refers to elves), nor does any other High Isle text say for sure what the deal is with the Direnni, their arrival or why they ascended to power. However, they do suggest a fascinating struggle for the "soul" of High Rock between the Direnni, the Alessians, the Druids and the Nordic Empire, none of whom come out shining unless they're telling the tale. As for the use of the term Manmer, I'm inclined to take it at face value, but question the relationship between the Direnni and their origins. It's stated the relationship was a lot less antagonistic in the past so comments about "slavery" seem overcooked to me.
  • Aliyavana
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    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already
    Edited by Aliyavana on May 3, 2022 7:24PM
  • Atharaon
    Atharaon
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already

    Yes, just noticed that in game, yet they left every other reference to "manmer" in the text lol. Interesting...
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already

    Yes, just noticed that in game, yet they left every other reference to "manmer" in the text lol. Interesting...

    nothing wrong with the other manmer references. the one that was taken out was the one that references before the nedes interbred with the direnni and created the bretons/manmer. the ones that remained are refering to manmer after they came to be
    Edited by Aliyavana on May 3, 2022 8:56PM
  • Atharaon
    Atharaon
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already

    Yes, just noticed that in game, yet they left every other reference to "manmer" in the text lol. Interesting...

    nothing wrong with the other manmer references. the one that was taken out was the one that references before the nedes interbred with the direnni and created the bretons/manmer. the ones that remained are refering to manmer after they came to be

    Yes, it's interesting though because it indicates the Druids still think of themselves as Manmer. It might just be preference or it might have implications for the level of elven genetic heritage in the druidic bloodlines due to their leaving so early in High Rock's history.
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already

    Yes, just noticed that in game, yet they left every other reference to "manmer" in the text lol. Interesting...

    nothing wrong with the other manmer references. the one that was taken out was the one that references before the nedes interbred with the direnni and created the bretons/manmer. the ones that remained are refering to manmer after they came to be

    Yes, it's interesting though because it indicates the Druids still think of themselves as Manmer. It might just be preference or it might have implications for the level of elven genetic heritage in the druidic bloodlines due to their leaving so early in High Rock's history.

    the direnni had already interbred with the nedes by 1E 20, so by the time the druids left the mainland for the systres in 1E 330, the manmer blood would already be well established within them.
    Edited by Aliyavana on May 3, 2022 10:57PM
  • Atharaon
    Atharaon
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already

    Yes, just noticed that in game, yet they left every other reference to "manmer" in the text lol. Interesting...

    nothing wrong with the other manmer references. the one that was taken out was the one that references before the nedes interbred with the direnni and created the bretons/manmer. the ones that remained are refering to manmer after they came to be

    Yes, it's interesting though because it indicates the Druids still think of themselves as Manmer. It might just be preference or it might have implications for the level of elven genetic heritage in the druidic bloodlines due to their leaving so early in High Rock's history.

    the direnni had already interbred with the nedes by 1E 20, so by the time the druids left the mainland for the systres in 1E 330, the manmer blood would already be well established within them.

    I'm aware of that, and indeed I think Manmer date back to at least c. 150ish ME due to the (incorrect) speculations in Khosey. However, what I was referring to is this: while the Druids left High Rock to settle the Systres in isolation, the Bretons who remained would have had their blood further diluted by interactions with other Men and a lot fewer elves. The druids might therefore be "closer" to Manmeri than the Bretons of the mainland, who are basically Men with some distant elven heritage.
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already

    Yes, just noticed that in game, yet they left every other reference to "manmer" in the text lol. Interesting...

    nothing wrong with the other manmer references. the one that was taken out was the one that references before the nedes interbred with the direnni and created the bretons/manmer. the ones that remained are refering to manmer after they came to be

    Yes, it's interesting though because it indicates the Druids still think of themselves as Manmer. It might just be preference or it might have implications for the level of elven genetic heritage in the druidic bloodlines due to their leaving so early in High Rock's history.

    the direnni had already interbred with the nedes by 1E 20, so by the time the druids left the mainland for the systres in 1E 330, the manmer blood would already be well established within them.

    I'm aware of that, and indeed I think Manmer date back to at least c. 150ish ME due to the (incorrect) speculations in Khosey. However, what I was referring to is this: while the Druids left High Rock to settle the Systres in isolation, the Bretons who remained would have had their blood further diluted by interactions with other Men and a lot fewer elves. The druids might therefore be "closer" to Manmeri than the Bretons of the mainland, who are basically Men with some distant elven heritage.

    I wonder now then if the Druids in High Isle will have a different appearance than the Bretons on the Main Land. When I come across the Bretons in game, looking at them, especially their eyes I always think them to be more like Imperials or a touch like the Nords.
  • Atharaon
    Atharaon
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    Eporem wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Looks like they fixed the premature reference to the manmer already

    Yes, just noticed that in game, yet they left every other reference to "manmer" in the text lol. Interesting...

    nothing wrong with the other manmer references. the one that was taken out was the one that references before the nedes interbred with the direnni and created the bretons/manmer. the ones that remained are refering to manmer after they came to be

    Yes, it's interesting though because it indicates the Druids still think of themselves as Manmer. It might just be preference or it might have implications for the level of elven genetic heritage in the druidic bloodlines due to their leaving so early in High Rock's history.

    the direnni had already interbred with the nedes by 1E 20, so by the time the druids left the mainland for the systres in 1E 330, the manmer blood would already be well established within them.

    I'm aware of that, and indeed I think Manmer date back to at least c. 150ish ME due to the (incorrect) speculations in Khosey. However, what I was referring to is this: while the Druids left High Rock to settle the Systres in isolation, the Bretons who remained would have had their blood further diluted by interactions with other Men and a lot fewer elves. The druids might therefore be "closer" to Manmeri than the Bretons of the mainland, who are basically Men with some distant elven heritage.

    I wonder now then if the Druids in High Isle will have a different appearance than the Bretons on the Main Land. When I come across the Bretons in game, looking at them, especially their eyes I always think them to be more like Imperials or a touch like the Nords.

    The Breton druids of the mid-2nd Era look pretty much the same, and they now take on members of every race who want to learn the True Way. Having said that, the older sculptures that seem to predate the All Flags Navy and popular settlement of the isles show bearded figures with semi-pointed ears and slightly slanted eyes which indicates a much more mixed elven-human look back in their heyday. Kinda cool really!
  • Eporem
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    lexSeeO.jpg

    an image that entered my mind when reading of the bearded figures with semi-pointed ears and slightly slanted eyes you mention @Atharaon :)

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Dwemer
    Edited by Eporem on May 4, 2022 8:10PM
  • Ratzkifal
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    Atharaon wrote: »
    I never read Sons and Daughters of Anui-El as referring to elves, since Anui-El is the Soul of All Things, not just elves. Auri-El, I'd read as elves, but Anui-El I read as the Aedra, or ada generally. Having said that, I do think there were elves in High Rock that predated the Direnni.
    it was confirmed to be unintentional

    Oh? Where was that confirmed?

    I mainly interpreted it as Elves because being sons and daughters of the gods is the Elven point of view, while the humans think they were created by the gods and aren't related to them.
    Also Anui-El is an Elven interpretation in the first place, although I am not too sure what the Imperial or Nord equivalent of Anui-El would be if it even exists. Does Alduin have an Aldui-El? And Akatosh an Akatui-El?
    Apparently, according to uesp with no source, Anu is "the Light" to the Bretons, which I guess is one way to make sense of that confusing dialogue from the basegame zones where I pretty much just assumed it was former Warcraft writing staff getting their worlds confused. But that does shed some... Light on what Anui-El would be to the humans. Probably some form of light as well I suppose.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • kaushad
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Apparently, according to uesp with no source, Anu is "the Light" to the Bretons, which I guess is one way to make sense of that confusing dialogue from the basegame zones where I pretty much just assumed it was former Warcraft writing staff getting their worlds confused. But that does shed some... Light on what Anui-El would be to the humans. Probably some form of light as well I suppose.

    That could be based on the The Light and the Dark. Whatever "the Light" really is, it presents more possibilities than saying "Anu" or "the Eight".
    Edited by kaushad on May 11, 2022 2:57PM
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