Why PVE and PVP character building mechanics so different in this game?

AvalonRanger

Why PVE and PVP character building mechanics so different in this game?

My main character become extremely PVE tanking role. Once I did solo dragon fighting over 1hour.
On the other situation , I can control 5 or 6 big monster at the Skyrim Dolman by solo. So If I have
one or two decent dps player, we can finish Skyrim Dolman with minimum number of player.

One day I saw strange player who has over 1800CP. That player can't survive Skyrim Dolman
just 10 second. It looks like attacking power is very powerful, but extremely glass canon.
I know most of powerful PVP style player have insane damage and penetration. But other hand,
It will not work most of PVE world-boss or dungeon boss. When I suffer *tragedy which everyone die
except me at the dungeon boss, that became trauma. (* I've seen several times though...)

And, my PVE tank character also doesn't work in Cylodiil.

I still can't understand why developer build completely different game rule in the same title.
It looks like they put two completely different game title at the one package.

For example, impen trait vs reinforce trait. They're similar naming impression, but not same actually.
Impen trait is very PVP style and reinforce is for the PVE. Why don't you unite these ambiguous parameter
to the one "defense" parameter? Critical or damage are also ambiguous for me.

Just defense power or attacking power is good enough.
Is there any good reason make the game too much complicate and ambiguous system?
Please re-think about this. I think there're no reason separate game system between PVE and PVP.

OH, by the way....

Today I saw almost cheat mode player in the Cylodiil. We keep attacking with more than 6 player including me
against just one player. But couldn't grind out opponent health at all.
Maybe it was not cheat player, but too much over powered healing or armor will destroy good game tension.
It's a just nonsense game. Before doing nerf or buff patch frequently, prohibit those balance breaking PVP build.

Coatmagic

Because in other games, all the bells and whistles are turned off on gear, if they don't have separate gear altogether...
ZoS steadfastly refuse to separate PvP and PvE in any way and let the players sort it out amongst themselves which has led to this... merry-go-round of heavy handed nerfs and general animosity,

Tranquilizer

AvalonRanger wrote: »

...
OH, by the way....

Today I saw almost cheat mode player in the Cylodiil. We keep attacking with more than 6 player including me
against just one player. But couldn't grind out opponent health at all.
Maybe it was not cheat player, but too much over powered healing or armor will destroy good game tension.
It's a just nonsense game. Before doing nerf or buff patch frequently, prohibit those balance breaking PVP build.

It could have been a really good player and/or the attackers weren't very experienced. On the other hand, atm there is an exploit that will give you infinite heals. The current downtime is because ZOS is going to fix it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/601926/

AvalonRanger

I love story quest and beautiful environment design of ESO. And It's a only reason paying money for this game for me.
But every combat of this game is too much outdated and just stressful, I really hate combat of this game.

Tranquilizer

AvalonRanger wrote: »

I love story quest and beautiful environment design of ESO. And It's a only reason paying money for this game for me.
But every combat of this game is too much outdated and just stressful, I really hate combat of this game.

People are different. I love the fast paced combat eso offers.

Naftal

You're asking them to dumb down the system that's already one of the simplest of any rpg.

Lysette

Isn't that in any game this way, where you have PvP and PvE mixed?- in PvP the incoming damage is much higher and burst damage, in PvE you have incoming damage more spread out over time - the first has to be buffer tanked, the other can be compensated with regeneration. In the first your chances to win are higher if your initial damage is massive, even it cannot be kept up, because dead enemies don't fight back, in the latter it is enough to do decent damage over a longer time. In the first you just need to stand the initial impact and kill as fast as possible, in the latter it is enough to just compensate while taking him down more or less quickly. He is not a real threat, not like a real player, who is attempting a quick kill as well.

This said, I have never done any PvP in ESO, I'm saying this from my experience in EVE.

fred4

AvalonRanger wrote: »

One day I saw strange player who has over 1800CP. That player can't survive Skyrim Dolman just 10 second. It looks like attacking power is very powerful, but extremely glass canon.

A PvEer in trial gear chancing his/her arm. Or trying to rely on you to do your tanking.

I know most of powerful PVP style player have insane damage and penetration.

This is incorrect. PvPers may have high penetration, but they often do not have the high sustained damage needed for PvE. PvPers typically build for short bursts of high damage, which they achieve by understanding the timing of skills and by combining those skills into a damage combo. Most cannot output sustained high damage, because they are actually not glass cannons. Quite the contrary. Many PvPers are tanky or they have high self defense via healing, blocking, dodge rolling and so on. A typical PvE DD dedicates both bars to damage. A typical PvPer does not. The back bar is for defense.

But other hand, It will not work most of PVE world-boss or dungeon boss.

Well, no. Because you do build differently for PvP and PvE and for the tank, healer and DD roles within those environments. That said, a typical PvP build is balanced and is closer to a PvE solo build than the person you observed, who was likely a glass cannon PvEer.

When I suffer *tragedy which everyone die except me at the dungeon boss, that became trauma. (* I've seen several times though...)

That just means you played with an inexperienced group. The skill difference between players is huge. I'll grant you that there may be a tendency for new DDs to unnecessarily adopt glass cannon builds that are not totally suitable for pugging dungeons.

And, my PVE tank character also doesn't work in Cylodiil.

Of course not. PvE tanking is about surviving big hits from bosses that are generally few and far between. PvP tanking is about surviving constant pressure. Smaller hits than a PvE boss will do, but that will test your self healing and blocking sustain constantly. Gear, skills and rotations are quite different.

I still can't understand why developer build completely different game rule in the same title. It looks like they put two completely different game title at the one package.

Honestly, not at all. This is an RPG. There are different roles. There are a lot of things to learn. The game is deliberately complex. That's the whole point.

For example, impen trait vs reinforce trait. They're similar naming impression, but not same actually. Impen trait is very PVP style and reinforce is for the PVE. Why don't you unite these ambiguous parameter to the one "defense" parameter? Critical or damage are also ambiguous for me.

I grant you that Impen gear has no real use in PvE. NPCs don't hit you with critical damage.

Just defense power or attacking power is good enough.

Well. How about: No. The whole idea is that different situations require different skills and different approaches. ZOS aren't in the business of simplifying stuff. They're in the business of providing you options, different playstyles, different tradeoffs between tankiness and damage.

Is there any good reason make the game too much complicate and ambiguous system?

I will grant you that many things are obscure for no reason. What does it mean to have 600 crit? Why does 50% damage reduction equal 33K armor? Why are we told that the Charged trait increases the chance of status effects, but the base values of those proc chances are nowhere explained by ZOS?

On the other hand: Is there a reason to make the game complicated? Yes, absolutely. It's a puzzle. Deliberately. It allows players to figure out builds that were not necessarily intended by ZOS. In PvP it results in the rock / paper / scissor effect. Your build isn't equally good against everyone. That's part of the appeal of the game.

Please re-think about this. I think there're no reason separate game system between PVE and PVP.

Many players think quite the opposite, you know. ZOS, in fact, do very little to separate PvE combat from PvP combat. The main reason why it feels totally different is that NPCs have really high health, but most have no healing. It's just a question of grinding them down. Nice and predictable. Players, on the other hand, have low health, but they can heal themselves. This results in the aforementioned burst meta in PvP. To kill a player you usually have to generate and stack a lot of damage within a short period of time, e.g. one to two seconds. You should also stun them, so they can't heal or block. But you don't need high sustained damage to grind them down, like NPCs.

Today I saw almost cheat mode player in the Cylodiil. We keep attacking with more than 6 player including me
against just one player. But couldn't grind out opponent health at all. Maybe it was not cheat player, but too much over powered healing or armor will destroy good game tension. It's a just nonsense game. Before doing nerf or buff patch frequently, prohibit those balance breaking PVP build.

Well, like Tranquilizer said, it could be the bug ZOS are fixing this morning. On the other hand that's not so unusual. If you play a PvE tank and you're new to PvP, you probably don't know how to PvP. How to generate burst damage or how to defend in PvP for that matter. Your skills, your gear, your CP, your playstyle, everything is different in PvP. Many players don't know how to do it properly and, yes, they won't be able to kill a good PvPer, not even 6 of them. That's pretty normal and that is most likely your group's fault. Do some duels. Start by fighting players 1v1 and take it from there.

There are a few other possibilities, of course. The player could have been a PvP tank. Those are kind of rare, but it's possible to fend off 6 inexperienced players in open terrain on PvP tank. The other possibility is line of sight. If they were running around towers or hiding behind / running around boxes, that blocks a lot of damage. It is hard to get to a player who is doing that.

MaleAmazon

The difference between PvE and PvP is one of thebest things about ESO imo. It means you get to play in different ways, with different sets and skills, which brings variety.

There are not different rules per se, apart from some specific things like no-CP PvP instances and Battle Spirit.

BXR_Lonestar

PVP = emphasis on burst damage over a short period of time to be able to kill your opponent.

PVE = emphasis on sustained damage output over a long period of time.

Seems pretty simple to me to see why PVE/PVP builds are so different.

VaranisArano

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

PVP = emphasis on burst damage over a short period of time to be able to kill your opponent.

PVE = emphasis on sustained damage output over a long period of time.

Seems pretty simple to me to see why PVE/PVP builds are so different.

I don't have anything to add that I didn't say in your last complaint thread on this topic, so I'll just say that BXR_Lonestar has hit the nail on the head.

If you don't adapt your build to the content you are doing, you're gonna have a bad time. That goes for the PVPer doing dragons and your PVE tank trying to kill someone in Cyrodiil equally.

Amottica

PvE and PvP combat and builds are different in every game I have ever played. What separates ESO apart from most of them is the degree of choices we have in making our build leading to greater differences between PvE and PvP builds.

And as @BXR_Lonestar notes, PvE is more about sustained damage where PvP is about burst. PvP is also about being able to survive the damage long enough to kill the opponent and PvE has most of the damage focused on the tank.

Gundug

The major difference between PVP and PVE is in the brain of the enemy you are fighting. No human is going to just sit in your AOE for the entire duration while you stand there parsing on them. If the AI was capable of reacting like a human with intelligent positioning, self healing, and could hit critically, builds for both worlds would be more similar, or the same. It’s like the difference between a hard mode trials tank and an overland PVE questing setup. You can build well for one specific thing, but don’t expect it to be great at everything.

Vevvev

In ESO the NPCs are not very bright and many of them won't get out of your AoEs, try to stop you from healing, and change up tactics on a whim.

Players who know what they're doing will make many of the tactics used against NPCs effectively worthless as they won't stand in your AoE, and will constantly have themselves being healed to account for damage being thrown at them. This means those abilities that don't work very well against NPCs since you don't really need to stun and burst suddenly become far more valuable to you.

There are many similarities between solo PvE and PvP builds simply due to the fact they're about being self sustaining, but on a PvP build you'll see stuns and burst ultimates instead of additional DoTs and other DPS boosting things.

AvalonRanger

Gundug wrote: »

The major difference between PVP and PVE is in the brain of the enemy you are fighting. No human is going to just sit in your AOE for the entire duration while you stand there parsing on them. If the AI was capable of reacting like a human with intelligent positioning, self healing, and could hit critically, builds for both worlds would be more similar, or the same. It’s like the difference between a hard mode trials tank and an overland PVE questing setup. You can build well for one specific thing, but don’t expect it to be great at everything.

"The major difference between PVP and PVE is in the brain of the enemy you are fighting..."

Well, I've been thinking why PVE dungeon level design is extremely simple compared with battle ground.
(*I don't have any experience battle ground though, just I checked the youtube video)

Certainly, most NPC enemy keep standing damage zone which I made, and never try to displace.
And NPC opponent never try to cover from projectile by using wall or pillar. They act like kind of "zombie",
not human or natural animal at all.

ESO AI design is extremely terrible and nonsense. And most of area damage skill is based on those
stupid AI mechanics. I think this is the biggest reason to make the huge valley between PVE and PVP
contents. Human player will not act like zombie, so most of PVE tactics useless in PVP.

I'm big action game fan though, but I've never seen those nonsense AI behavior in the AAA title like the
Horizon Zero dawn or Call of Duty. In the Call of Duty, there're no NPC soldier who are keep standing
at the empty vacant area like the dungeon boss of ESO. (except zombie mode of Call of Duty )

Anyway, I didn't expect "good action game" for ESO from 2014. I regard this game as Skyrim2, with just
little bit online essence though, but basically same as single play RPG game. And most of Elder Scroll fan
people are single play RPG fan. ZOS concentrate making story based PVE quest recently, especially new
DLC zone. Moreover 90% of ESO is PVE contents. I think ZOS did very good business decision.

So, PVP become minority contents in today. Only purpose going Cyrodiil is to get alliance skill line
which is also useful in PVE tactics.(like the "Purge" skill) PVP is not main theme anymore in the ESO.

I'm just enjoying Elder Scroll story and beautiful environment designer's work. It's good enough for me.

But...

Sometime, I see complaining comment at the "zone" chat. "Oh ZOS really hate PVPver."
or "PVPver cancel ESO plus now". If ZOS think about this serious problem of this game,
you had better re-think dissonance game mechanics of ESO.

Olen_Mikko

Nothing confusing. Totally different playstyles.

You don't need to be very tanky in PvE and you can avoid most of the heavy attacks and just memorize the PvE boss mechanics.

You can't do that In PvP. There's no quaranteed rotations or occasional heavy attacks. There's a constant pressure of attacks and skills etc, so you can't just stay in place and block.

Mayrael

Well many games do this. Nothing unusual.