I am so confused… origin of Orcs?

moleculardrugs

So I always thought Orcs were the followers of Trinimac who became Malacath because of Boethiah stopping his plans to stop the Chimer from leaving Summerset. I found this all in a lore book. However, when reading it further, at the end someone in the Daggerfall Covenant wrote that this was untrue and vile and propaganda and suggested that the book be banned. Someone replied to that footnote and said, “Do it.”

Is what I found lore or is it propaganda to get Orcs to side with the Aldmeri Dominion?

I can imagine war propaganda being used to spread false information. However, because (from what I know), when the Orcs became Orcs they moved North due to being exiled and fought the Bretons and Nords and moved further North into Wrothgar, and it was through time and isolation that they became separated from their elven origins and that’s why they’re in the Daggerfall Covenant now (during the 3 banners war).

Monte_Cristo

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc
Origins:
According to most accounts, the Orcish race was created when their patron god Trinimac was transformed by Boethiah. He became Malacath and his faithful became the cursed folk, or 'Orsimer', and were henceforth known as Orcs.

The Orcs say that Trinimac was enraged by Veloth and his cult trespassing on Tamriel during their exodus, and challenged his patron Boethiah to a duel. Just as Trinimac was about to succeed, a second Prince, Mephala, interfered and stabbed Trinimac in the back. Boethiah used the opportunity to curse Trinimac, transforming both him and his followers as well as casting him into a place of choking air and ash. There, Trinimac was reborn in his blood and rage and became Malacath, the God of Curses. The Dunmeri account of events begins much the same, but Boethiah instead triumphs over Trinimac alone and devours him whole. He proceeds to take Trinimacs form and speak with his voice, and together with Mephala showed the Chimer the rules of the Psijic Endeavor. Once he finished, he relieved himself of Trinimac there on the spot. That excrement became Malacath, and his followers became the Orcs. A disguised Malacath, when told one of these accounts, derided the story as being too "literal-minded".

There are several unexplained inconsistencies in these accounts. While some stories claim that Trinimac's duel with Boethiah occurred in the Dawn Era, Saint Veloth's exodus to Morrowind, which preempted it, was safely within the Merethic Era. Several accounts also exist that seem to imply certain tribes of orcs were present in Tamriel before Aldmeri explorers ever set foot on the province, and thus before the Orcs' supposed creation. Orcs claim they have lived in Skyrim since before the Nords came, and that Malacath blessed the lands solely for them.

While there is speculation that the 'Orcs' discovered by Topal the Pilot may have been a wholly different kind of Cursed Folk, oral traditions within both the Wrothgarian Orcs and Wood Orc societies claim that they have lived in that land since the Dawn Era, long before the Altmer or Bosmer settled there. Whether or not they were always there, they have eternally felt compelled to return "home" to the Wrothgarian Mountains. Some Orcs have even gone so far as to claim that Malacath has been lying to them and that Trinimac still lives, including notable figures like Gortwog who very briefly made this the official doctrine of Third Orsinium. The conflicting nature of these stories, alongside the diaspora of Orcish culture, has made finding a single agreed-upon origin for the Orsimer an exceedingly difficult task.

bmnoble

Nah they got rid of all their dentists, the poor oral care that caused resulted in the Orcs as we know them now.

ShawnLaRock

I have a baby toon Orc Warden named Drubloch gro-Trinicath whose name I concocted to incorporate both Malacath & Trinimac obvs, as family name - as well as the “warden-esque” part mixing-up Drublog and Mauloch.

S.

Arunei

Keep in mind that a lot of the books in the TES universe are "unreliable narrator", in that they're written by actual people in the world. Therefore they can be influenced by bias or misinformation, or be purposefully wrong to spread lies and anti-what or whoever propaganda. Things you find in books aren't like the out-of-universe lore given to use by the Loremasters.

Bradyfjord

Arunei wrote: »

Keep in mind that a lot of the books in the TES universe are "unreliable narrator", in that they're written by actual people in the world. Therefore they can be influenced by bias or misinformation, or be purposefully wrong to spread lies and anti-what or whoever propaganda. Things you find in books aren't like the out-of-universe lore given to use by the Loremasters.

This is true. The 'unreliable narrator' is what this is. The people making the lore seemed to want the world to have biases. That way, there is always room for a new interpretation of the truth. It allows for more stories. It might be interesting to see what lore they add in TES6 that will also be simply another perspective on events both current and past.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

moleculardrugs wrote: »

So I always thought Orcs were the followers of Trinimac who became Malacath because of Boethiah stopping his plans to stop the Chimer from leaving Summerset. I found this all in a lore book. However, when reading it further, at the end someone in the Daggerfall Covenant wrote that this was untrue and vile and propaganda and suggested that the book be banned. Someone replied to that footnote and said, “Do it.”

My understanding is that it is standard practice for the Daggerfall Covenant to turn a blind eye to the fact that one of their three factions actively worships a Daedric Prince. This is accomplished largely by pretending that Mauloch and Malacath are different entities instead of different names for the same entity, focusing on Trinimac over Malacath, and in general sticking their metaphorical fingers in their ears and shouting ‘LALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!’ whenever the subject comes up.

Tl:dr - the footnote people are trying to whitewash Orsimer history for the sake of the alliance.

Supreme_Atromancer

The problem you've come across is actually a feature of TES writing. Sometimes you aren't presented with facts, but just different perspectives on a phenomena you, yourself didn't experience. When they pull it off, it can be really cool because it invites you to explore the issue- talk to more NPCs than you otherwise might, or pay attention to things they say that might have seemed irrelevant, read more lorebooks, or explore parts of the world that might give you clues or reasons so that you can form your own view. A boring old delve, for instance, could become awesome when you can, just by exploring and paying attention realise it was built by some sect who had some compelling new evidence about Malacath's genesis.

And even in cases where you can never get a definitive answer one way or another, at the end of that journey you've learned about the various people belonging to the opposing perspectives- why they believe the things they do, why they act these ways, what are their characters, beliefs, etc.

This is one of my favourite aspects of Elder Scrolls. When you get to the point where people are arguing heatedly on forums about Stormcloaks! vs Imperials!!, or even "Ayrenn is completely altruistic and deserves the Ruby Throne!" vs "NO! The Altmer are irredeemable supremacists! DOWNVOTE!" I think its story done right. Its something I hope ESO more of in the future.

Danikat

As other people have said this is quite common and one of the things many of us like about TES lore.

Many other games use the 'word of god' format where the majority of information is definitive, whether it comes from an in-universe source or not it's the one version the writers have decided and there's absolutely no question that is how that games world works, to the point where you'll rarely find people who doubt a deity exists even if they don't personally worship them. Where there is uncertainty it's because something hasn't been decided or there's not much detail, not because there are conflicting versions available.

Elder Scrolls not only relies almost exclusively on in-universe sources written from the perspective of a specific author and so limited to what they're able to know but also gives many of those authors their own biases and opinions which will affect what they write.

Sometimes when the things being written about are in a game we can find out that one version is more accurate than another. But in this case I don't think we know for sure yet. So it's up to you which version you agree with, or if you think the truth is somewhere in the middle, or somewhere else entirely.

Kisakee

Alt-Mer, Bos-Mer, Dwe-Mer, Dun-Mer (Chi-Mer), Orsi-Mer.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Of_Men_and_Mer

HappyTheCamper

Visit r/TrueSTL and look up poop elves

K9002

In the offline games there was only one source suggesting that Orcs are cursed or changed elves, it was one of the books written by Michael Kirkbride. But there were also sources that contradict it, like the account of Topal's discovery of mainland Tamriel:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Father_Of_The_Niben

ArcaneScientius

I love the orsimer and elder scrolls lore.
All the interpretations for orcs and the lore in general are equally valid and equally unprovable.
Skyrim es5 presented a tidbit of truth to the fact that they are descended from elves in the quest for the oghma infinium.

For example, I always view their transformation as the result of a religous schism, closer to the less literal minded interpretations and more similar to the reasons/drivers for the transformation of the chimer to dunmer being caused by their respective gods and religion.

The chimer led by veloth rebelled against aldmer/altmer (can't remember which) culture and religion. Trinimac's followers were the conservatives in the schism. The elves in these factions all looked the same at this stage btw; maybe the chimer were a slightly darker hue of gold skin.

Boethiah took trinimac's form, which could mean infiltrating or replacing trinimac''s priests or even conducting sermons in his name that muddled his teachings.
Speaking with his voice similarly could mean his priests or the highest priest was a chimer convert that again created mass confusion among his faithful, as s/he and/or they spoke with the voice of their god.

It would easily fit boethiah's modus operandi to use trickery to gain victory and deliver a killing blow to the worship of trinimac.

The trinimac faithful, broken and deceived, could then have turned to the worship of another entity or their shattered faith led to their deity transforming into malacath.
Them rubbing excrement on themselves could mean accepting their status as aldmer pariahs and leaving for new lands, becoming the orcs.

Then again, the gods and daedra all can have various levels of influence and/or physical presence in the mundus, which means it could really have been god-like figures fighting it out, or a mix of the legends or nothing at all like it.

barney2525

Orcs originally came from Cleveland when the Cayuga River caught fire (the First time). The initial combination of heat and toxicity created a vortex which pulled 612 firefighters in, never to be seen again. They eventually were pulled into Tamriel, where they initially were hunted as bi-pedal wild boar due to extensive tusks. Once they turned on their attackers and wiped them out, people decided hunting them might be a bad idea after all.

Monte_Cristo

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

moleculardrugs wrote: »

So I always thought Orcs were the followers of Trinimac who became Malacath because of Boethiah stopping his plans to stop the Chimer from leaving Summerset. I found this all in a lore book. However, when reading it further, at the end someone in the Daggerfall Covenant wrote that this was untrue and vile and propaganda and suggested that the book be banned. Someone replied to that footnote and said, “Do it.”

My understanding is that it is standard practice for the Daggerfall Covenant to turn a blind eye to the fact that one of their three factions actively worships a Daedric Prince. This is accomplished largely by pretending that Mauloch and Malacath are different entities instead of different names for the same entity, focusing on Trinimac over Malacath, and in general sticking their metaphorical fingers in their ears and shouting ‘LALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!’ whenever the subject comes up.

Tl:dr - the footnote people are trying to whitewash Orsimer history for the sake of the alliance.

Since King Kurog follow's Trinimac and has made Trinimac the official deity of Orsinium, the Covenant Orcs aren't 'officially' Daedric worshipers.

K9002

ArcaneScientius wrote: »

I love the orsimer and elder scrolls lore.
All the interpretations for orcs and the lore in general are equally valid and equally unprovable.
Skyrim es5 presented a tidbit of truth to the fact that they are descended from elves in the quest for the oghma infinium.

I'm of different opinion. The blood mixture was just an idea of a deranged man, not a revelation from a daedric prince or other ancient entity. The mixture was added to Septimus' non-elven Imperial blood. It means that one or more of the types of blood worked even in the presence of undesirable blood types. There's also the matter of somebody opening the Dwemer cube after the events of Oblivion and using it to seal Oghma Infinium. Orcish blood probably had nothing to do with it.

Daedric quests offer more information still. In Oblivion Malacath himself says that ogres are his brothers:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Malacath
It's up to debate whether he meant it in a spiritual or physical sense. It does suggest some kind of relation between ogres and Orcs, as both are under Malacath's patronage and they bear some physical semblance too.

I actually find it sad that Orcs would ride the coattail of elven myths so much that they would copy and repurpose the story of Dunmer being changed by a daedric prince, while they might as well be one of the real indigenous races of Tamriel that predate the elven colonization.

Vaoh

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc
Origins:
According to most accounts, the Orcish race was created when their patron god Trinimac was transformed by Boethiah. He became Malacath and his faithful became the cursed folk, or 'Orsimer', and were henceforth known as Orcs.

The Orcs say that Trinimac was enraged by Veloth and his cult trespassing on Tamriel during their exodus, and challenged his patron Boethiah to a duel. Just as Trinimac was about to succeed, a second Prince, Mephala, interfered and stabbed Trinimac in the back. Boethiah used the opportunity to curse Trinimac, transforming both him and his followers as well as casting him into a place of choking air and ash. There, Trinimac was reborn in his blood and rage and became Malacath, the God of Curses. The Dunmeri account of events begins much the same, but Boethiah instead triumphs over Trinimac alone and devours him whole. He proceeds to take Trinimacs form and speak with his voice, and together with Mephala showed the Chimer the rules of the Psijic Endeavor. Once he finished, he relieved himself of Trinimac there on the spot. That excrement became Malacath, and his followers became the Orcs. A disguised Malacath, when told one of these accounts, derided the story as being too "literal-minded".

There are several unexplained inconsistencies in these accounts. While some stories claim that Trinimac's duel with Boethiah occurred in the Dawn Era, Saint Veloth's exodus to Morrowind, which preempted it, was safely within the Merethic Era. Several accounts also exist that seem to imply certain tribes of orcs were present in Tamriel before Aldmeri explorers ever set foot on the province, and thus before the Orcs' supposed creation. Orcs claim they have lived in Skyrim since before the Nords came, and that Malacath blessed the lands solely for them.

While there is speculation that the 'Orcs' discovered by Topal the Pilot may have been a wholly different kind of Cursed Folk, oral traditions within both the Wrothgarian Orcs and Wood Orc societies claim that they have lived in that land since the Dawn Era, long before the Altmer or Bosmer settled there. Whether or not they were always there, they have eternally felt compelled to return "home" to the Wrothgarian Mountains. Some Orcs have even gone so far as to claim that Malacath has been lying to them and that Trinimac still lives, including notable figures like Gortwog who very briefly made this the official doctrine of Third Orsinium. The conflicting nature of these stories, alongside the diaspora of Orcish culture, has made finding a single agreed-upon origin for the Orsimer an exceedingly difficult task.

Amazing post. Thank you for this

ArcaneScientius

K9002 wrote: »

ArcaneScientius wrote: »

I love the orsimer and elder scrolls lore.
All the interpretations for orcs and the lore in general are equally valid and equally unprovable.
Skyrim es5 presented a tidbit of truth to the fact that they are descended from elves in the quest for the oghma infinium.

I'm of different opinion. The blood mixture was just an idea of a deranged man, not a revelation from a daedric prince or other ancient entity. The mixture was added to Septimus' non-elven Imperial blood. It means that one or more of the types of blood worked even in the presence of undesirable blood types. There's also the matter of somebody opening the Dwemer cube after the events of Oblivion and using it to seal Oghma Infinium. Orcish blood probably had nothing to do with it.

Daedric quests offer more information still. In Oblivion Malacath himself says that ogres are his brothers:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Malacath
It's up to debate whether he meant it in a spiritual or physical sense. It does suggest some kind of relation between ogres and Orcs, as both are under Malacath's patronage and they bear some physical semblance too.

I actually find it sad that Orcs would ride the coattail of elven myths so much that they would copy and repurpose the story of Dunmer being changed by a daedric prince, while they might as well be one of the real indigenous races of Tamriel that predate the elven colonization.

Cool. I can't remember that he added his own blood, but I haven't done the quest in a long time.
Hermaeus mora did confirm septimus signus serves him:
"Your continuing aid to Septimus renders him increasingly obsolete. He has served me well, but his time is nearing its end. Once that infernal lockbox is opened, he will have exhausted his usefulness to me. When that time comes, you shall take his place as my emissary. What say you?"

Of course, nothing herma mora says confirms or contradicts the importance of the blood, so your view remains possible and valid.

Edit: also, no matter if you accept his offer or reject it, it makes no difference to the outcome, so septimus' service could be incidental and/or unknowing. Typical of the prince of forbidden secrets.

That is the great thing about es lore. We can argue and present supporting parts but both of our opinions remained equally valid and unprovable.

I am with you on the orcs being a potential non human and non mer native species of tamriel is an awesome possibility.

Possibly like the argonians, although they may be from another planet or plane. Or native lizards that became sentient and sapient from licking psychic alien tree sap. Es gets weird if you dig. I don't know if khajjiit are also non mer natives but to me it seems likely.

Bradyfjord

Can we step back and appreciate that the orcs (and other race lore in game) are given far more depth than most other game worlds?

Sylvermynx

From UESP: Lore:Beastfolk

Beastfolk (also Betmeri, Beastmen,[1] or Betmer)[2] is used to refer to any sentient beast-like humanoid that inhabits Tamriel, such as the Argonians, Imga, and Khajiit. A few races have died out or disappeared, such as the Lilmothiit and the Bird Men.

There's further information by race on the page.

Supreme_Atromancer

ArcaneScientius wrote: »

For example, I always view their transformation as the result of a religous schism, closer to the less literal minded interpretations

r/TrueSTL has entered the chat

Supreme_Atromancer

K9002 wrote: »

I'm of different opinion. The blood mixture was just an idea of a deranged man, not a revelation from a daedric prince or other ancient entity. The mixture was added to Septimus' non-elven Imperial blood. It means that one or more of the types of blood worked even in the presence of undesirable blood types. There's also the matter of somebody opening the Dwemer cube after the events of Oblivion and using it to seal Oghma Infinium. Orcish blood probably had nothing to do with it.

I always thought that the idea was he was essentially reverse-engineering Dwemer blood by combining the blood of all the most closely-related extant species, kind of like a mystical Jurassic Park sort of thing. With those qualities added to his own, his blood would possess the Dwemer qualities needed to gain access to the device.