Bow Passive -- "Long Shots"

QB1

For the most part, I love the bow passives. I play archer variations of every class, and in doing so, there is one passive that I'd really like to see changed.

Long Shots: Gives you a damage bonus of up to 12% against enemies at longer range

Currently, this passive only works with bow abilities. So, if you are really wanting to run a bow on your front bar, you're forced to use snipe unless your class has an at-range stamina spammable. This actually works quite well with necromancer's venom skull and sorcerer with crystal weapon but you won't get the increased damage at long range since they are not bow abilities.

I'd love to just see the "with bow abilities" part changed to "with a bow equipped". Stamina spammables would then be getting that increased damage at long range. Not only that, but it would open the weapon up to even being used by magicka builds and would be in line with some of the hybrid changes we've seen recently. It would also fall in line more with other weapons that players use on the front bar for damage. Two handers grant you flat spell damage/weapon damage/penetration/etc, allowing them to be used by magicka builds, same with dual wield. Inferno staff grants a flat 10% increased damage with all single-target abilities (not just destruction staff abilities), and lightning staff increases damage done by 10% with all area of effect abilities.

I think you see the point I'm trying to make. Giving bow users a flat damage increase to all long-range abilities would be a unique and much-needed buff -- especially to everyone who wants to use a bow as their main source of damage and not just a back-bar option. It would also help put them in line with some of the other weapons mentioned.

Does anyone else agree or have thoughts on the topic?

Ksariyu

I agree this would be a nice change. Bow/bow has always been a bit underpowered, at least in PvE. This might help bring it up to par.

QB1

Ksariyu wrote: »

I agree this would be a nice change. Bow/bow has always been a bit underpowered, at least in PvE. This might help bring it up to par.

Glad someone else agrees I think it would be a nice change for bow in both PvE and PvP.

Silversmith

Bows have terrible los issues in pvp and not the same kind of dps in both pvp/pve.

QB1

Silversmith wrote: »

Bows have terrible los issues in pvp and not the same kind of dps in both pvp/pve.

Agreed. But what does that have to do with this suggested passive change?

Arthtur

Well for me this passive should just be reworked. Its doesnt give u anything rly. In PvE u need to stand close to the boss so u get buffs from healer and tank, for solo enemies are next to you so yeah... And in addition u need to go bow/bow to even try getting anything from this passive. If u have bow as backbar weapon u dont get anything from this passive.
So yeah, im in for giving bow some love.

QB1

Arthtur wrote: »

Well for me this passive should just be reworked. Its doesnt give u anything rly. In PvE u need to stand close to the boss so u get buffs from healer and tank, for solo enemies are next to you so yeah... And in addition u need to go bow/bow to even try getting anything from this passive. If u have bow as backbar weapon u dont get anything from this passive.
So yeah, im in for giving bow some love.

I feel you. It needs some kind of rework for sure. With that said, I think the “at-range” part of the passive should stay. Just my personal opinion.

As far as getting healed and buffed in trials and vet dungeons, you could still stand in melee range and receive a small damage increase to all of your abilities (not just bow abilities) with the change I suggested. It would be something like 3/6/9/12% based on the range. Probably wouldn’t be a huge increase but it’s still something.

As for getting the full boost, you’d have to run with a healer that’s willing to be a little more dynamic. A 12% damage bonus on all abilities could be worth it for them to commit to healing and buffing a group of melee players and a group of ranged players. It’s a little more work, sure, but it’s doable.

In the end, though, it sounds like we both agree that bow needs some love.

robpr

Let's start with changing the description so it indicates how far you need to be for the 12% bonus. Some Skyrim stealth archer wannabies feel that "longer range" mean 1km behind everyone and as a healer you need to seek them to keep them from danger.

Sir_Hammock

I would like to rework that talent and remove the at range bit. Turn it into some kind of procc like relequen, but instead of light attacks it stacks on skills hitting. Say stack up to 3 times and each gives you 3% extra damage or crit chance or crit damage. Would be more consistent and more useful perk imo

Runefang

I’d rather see it flipped, make it point blank range so it’s mostly just good for PvE. And make it a set % damage increase with a bow equipped. Right now ranged stam is better equipping inferno staves.

Tommy_The_Gun

Bow skill line is kinda a "meh" weapon in terms how it performs. It was nerfed over the years here & there - either because of PvP or PvE. The argument always was that since it is a ranged stamina weapon it should always perform worse vs other stamina weapons that are melee type weapons (risk & reward).

The problem though is that magicka staff weapons are ranged, but are far superior to bow, as those are only magicka-based weapons in ESO (magicka does not have melee weapon).

However, it is kinda no longer the case as with hybridisation chnages, magicka & stamina got access to all weapon types. The paradox is that now you are a better "archer" if you will use a Destro Staff instead of Bow....

QB1

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The paradox is that now you are a better "archer" if you will use a Destro Staff instead of Bow....

Yep…..

QB1

Runefang wrote: »

Right now ranged stam is better equipping inferno staves.

Yep……

MudcrabAttack

I could get behind bow passives affecting more skills. The weapon line needs help. My latest build is only using endless hail and acid spray since there are so many other skills that opened up now that the game is hybrid.

But I wonder if they’ll ever fix the biggest issue with bows - hawk eye keeps getting messed up because of the jankiness when weaving light attacks, especially around ground targeted skills. I like skills like fire rune, winters revenge, boneyard, occasional caltrops, but always missing a light attack after casting those long delayed skills

QB1

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

I could get behind bow passives affecting more skills. The weapon line needs help. My latest build is only using endless hail and acid spray since there are so many other skills that opened up now that the game is hybrid.

But I wonder if they’ll ever fix the biggest issue with bows - hawk eye keeps getting messed up because of the jankiness when weaving light attacks, especially around ground targeted skills. I like skills like fire rune, winters revenge, boneyard, occasional caltrops, but always missing a light attack after casting those long delayed skills

Yeah, a lot of people have issues with the hawkeye passive. I don't love it but I don't necessarily hate it either. I like the idea of weaving light attacks to build up a damage boost. With that said, I agree that it can be janky with those long-delayed skills you mentioned.

ESO_Nightingale

more bow passives need to work with everything as opposed to just bow skills, it's surprising that this hasn't been updated yet, but i bet it's probably on ZOS's to-do list, possibly even next patch.

QB1

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

more bow passives need to work with everything as opposed to just bow skills, it's surprising that this hasn't been updated yet, but i bet it's probably on ZOS's to-do list, possibly even next patch.

Agreed. Let’s hope it happens🤞

OBJnoob

Also agreed.

I’m on Xbox NA, mostly play no cp, and a couple days ago was very pleased to start experimenting with the new patch changes and my “stam”sorc. Always heard bow/bow was good on stamsorc… but didn’t personally feel like I could load my ability bars successfully until curse and endless fury came around. So I’m playing around… doing pretty well, but keep checking my foods and mundus… trying to get my mag sustain right… keep checking skills, making sure I like my morphs yadda yadda just really re-diving into the whole thing as I play.

And eventually I’m looking at the bow passives thinking to myself man these are pretty lackluster.

To be honest though, for pvp purposes, the destro passives are equally lackluster. They also, mostly, only effect destro skills. With the exception being the passives involving the staff type. So in the end I stayed bow/bow just for the roll dodge and crit chance which are pretty integral to my stamsorc play.

Feels bad kinda… but at the same time, if they make the long shots passive apply to all skills it’ll need to be a lot less than 12%.

Fizzyapple

I respectfully disagree. The notion of a "skilled archer" is a staple tenant or archetype in most fantasy related stories and games and this helps to promote that. I do appreciate your suggestion and think it a good one but perhaps instead of changing one of the few bow specific things in the game that actually work and make the bow interesting to play from a bow users perspective maybe adding something else anywhere else that gives a bonus to range in general. I am sure there is someone out there that thinks a "skilled staffer" is interesting idk. We bow/bow people are a bit fanatical about bows and play that archetype because we love it. We have to make do with a skill line that is considered not the best to put it mildly so with the utmost respect, leave us alone.

I would concede however if there were a Bosmer passive added that increases damage or something similar when using a bow. After all, it is rumored that they invented the thing.

As an aside, you can make bow/bow work but it takes a lot more effort to master than other weapon skill lines. I regularly parse at 105-110k with bow/bow but it wasn't easy getting there.

To add salt to our wounds, ZoS gave us one of the worst / useless arena weapons in the game from a bow enthusiasts perspective. Point-Blank Snipe. -- A bow that you essentially need to club the enemy with that doesn't exactly synergize with the long shot passive.

RedFireDisco

Yep, they did it with fire staff where it was with a destruction ability slotted you did 10% more single target damage and then you no longer needed to slot a destro ability in lew of a class one.

Bow users should get the same balance. Give the bonus 12% et al, to any ability slotted.

It's gonna hit like a wet noodle anyway, coz, well, bow and all

QB1

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Yep, they did it with fire staff where it was with a destruction ability slotted you did 10% more single target damage and then you no longer needed to slot a destro ability in lew of a class one.

Bow users should get the same balance. Give the bonus 12% et al, to any ability slotted.

It's gonna hit like a wet noodle anyway, coz, well, bow and all

Tell ‘em 🗣🗣🗣

WinterHeart626

Runefang wrote: »

I’d rather see it flipped, make it point blank range so it’s mostly just good for PvE. And make it a set % damage increase with a bow equipped. Right now ranged stam is better equipping inferno staves.

Kinda like the point blank shot feat in D&D, closer the enemy is, the more damage you punch.
I wouldn’t mind seeing both Long range and a Close range skill points option, however set it so you can’t have both. Only one or the other. You’d find it more of a tactics choice that way (there are some bosses you DONT want to be next to)

QB1

Please take a look at this passive, ZOS!

Nihilr

Here's my take: If you make a specific weapon skill passive a "world" passive, you need to make it a champion star, or break up passives, and allow only 10-15 passives for any character, but don't limit it to just weapons and classes--only 10-15 passives for any one character, no matter the source. Then they can break apart passives, and players can really settle into their build.

ps: The devs would likely do what you want, but in a way you don't want it: Splitting the sum of the average--

Long range passive for bows would be nerfed to 8% max, and long-range champion star would be created with a 6% max bonus to ranged attacks. Plus then a 6% melee range star would be created too.

QB1

Nihilr wrote: »

Here's my take: If you make a specific weapon skill passive a "world" passive, you need to make it a champion star, or break up passives, and allow only 10-15 passives for any character, but don't limit it to just weapons and classes--only 10-15 passives for any one character, no matter the source. Then they can break apart passives, and players can really settle into their build.

i like your train of thought. People have suggested a classless system where you can choose any three skill lines in the game. Could do the same with passives as well.

Pelanora

The bow passive in the weapon line bow should work for bows, on whatever bar.

QB1

This passive is getting a change in update 39! Thank you to everyone who took the time to discuss this passive and potential changes to help bring bows in line with some of the other weapons in the game.

Bow
Long Shots:
This passive now increases your damage done by 2/5% against enemies within 15 meters of you and increases your Critical Chance by 657/1314 against enemies that are further than 15 meters from you, rather than increasing your damage done with Bow attacks by 6/12% based on how far away you are.
Renamed this passive to "Vinedusk Training" to accurately adjust its implications to its new functionality, with a flavorful lore twist.

Developer Comment:
In order to help Bows feel more like additional tools for your character rather than their own isolated play style, we're expanding out this bonus two-fold to help it become a more viable option for different builds. Since this passive previously only enhanced other Bow attacks, it created situations where the weapon heavily dissuaded you to use other skills, making it feel restrictive rather than additive. By opening the bonus to work with any attack, we hope to help it feel more like other weapons as a way to synergize and play off your other actions. In addition, this passive's mini game was creating situations that heavily punished many different encounters both in PvP and PvE, where you had to maximize your range at all times from the target. By granting two individual bonuses for close range and further range, we can help enable more consistent power to the weapon, each with their own advantages, without creating frustrating game play experiences that further harmed synergy with other actions like class skills or group coordination.

Foxtrot39

At leats sticking next to melee toon is no longer a double self nerf (lower damage because reason when staves exists, and needing to be +15m away to have "standart" damage meaning no heal or buff from healers or tanks)

No longer shoehorned into point blanck bow even if it stays a solid option