Scavenging Maw and Caluurion's Legacy

Rataroto

Remember when we made proc sets not crit for performance and balance sake?
You too can be a PvP god by doing this one simple trick!

DrSlaughtr

Not exactly sure what each column means since you didn't include it (on XB) but to be fair, both maw and Caluurions are dodgeable.

Having said that.

I would love nothing more to be able to run my pre deadlands set ups that just made my actual skills be effective in killing players.

jaws343

If that is a dummy parse, it is hardly definitive of anything for PVP. Dummy's cannot dodge, have nearly no mitigation after pen, can't heal, can't block, can't counter attack you, don't have % mitigations, or shields. I mean, great the proc was a quarter of your DPS because it hit every time it procced. That is not a real scenario in the least.

Rataroto

jaws343 wrote: »

If that is a dummy parse, it is hardly definitive of anything for PVP. Dummy's cannot dodge, have nearly no mitigation after pen, can't heal, can't block, can't counter attack you, don't have % mitigations, or shields. I mean, great the proc was a quarter of your DPS because it hit every time it procced. That is not a real scenario in the least.

Alright, cut that by half for being pvp;
100k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again for resistances;
50k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again cuz WHY NOT;
25k in 1 sec
Still too much damage to come out in a split second; when both Assassin's Scourge, Heavy Attack AND Whirling Blades did NOT crit. Remember that this combo is done out of stealth, meaning the initial shot of Poison Arrow will stun you and everything else will most likely come out as you are. If not, this can be timed to be done with a Dawnbreaker, which stuns through dodge cuz its AOE.

Is it a dummy burst? Yes.
Is it irrelevant to pvp analysis? No.

These 2 sets combined are insane, and this is on a nightblade for crying out loud; doing this on a DK is even worse, cuz they'll not only do more poison damage, but also proc the Maw every 10 seconds due to poison dots.

I am not saying this is a 1 to 1 translation in pvp; hell, if you parse an actual dummy Scav Maw hits for 90k...; what I'm saying is such a high damage burst shot shouldn't exist. I get it to crit for 20~40k on players in BGs all day long.

Kaysha

You should assess your ideas about PvP combos in PvP and not on dummies. Please do this and come back to tell us about your findings.

EF321

But Scavening Maw is like super telegraphed?

Alchimiste1

Caluurions needs a nerf no question about it.

jaws343

Rataroto wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

If that is a dummy parse, it is hardly definitive of anything for PVP. Dummy's cannot dodge, have nearly no mitigation after pen, can't heal, can't block, can't counter attack you, don't have % mitigations, or shields. I mean, great the proc was a quarter of your DPS because it hit every time it procced. That is not a real scenario in the least.

Alright, cut that by half for being pvp;
100k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again for resistances;
50k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again cuz WHY NOT;
25k in 1 sec
Still too much damage to come out in a split second; when both Assassin's Scourge, Heavy Attack AND Whirling Blades did NOT crit. Remember that this combo is done out of stealth, meaning the initial shot of Poison Arrow will stun you and everything else will most likely come out as you are. If not, this can be timed to be done with a Dawnbreaker, which stuns through dodge cuz its AOE.

Is it a dummy burst? Yes.
Is it irrelevant to pvp analysis? No.

These 2 sets combined are insane, and this is on a nightblade for crying out loud; doing this on a DK is even worse, cuz they'll not only do more poison damage, but also proc the Maw every 10 seconds due to poison dots.

I am not saying this is a 1 to 1 translation in pvp; hell, if you parse an actual dummy Scav Maw hits for 90k...; what I'm saying is such a high damage burst shot shouldn't exist. I get it to crit for 20~40k on players in BGs all day long.

No parse you will ever do on a dummy will ever be a valid set of evidence for any PVP balancing effort. Ever. You can try to chop it up however you want. None of it is valid.

And damage per second is irrelevant in pvp anyways. It's all about burst. Which takes time to set up and is entirely shut down by an opposing players response I'm many cases.

Janni

jaws343 wrote: »

No parse you will ever do on a dummy will ever be a valid set of evidence for any PVP balancing effort. Ever. You can try to chop it up however you want. None of it is valid.

And damage per second is irrelevant in pvp anyways. It's all about burst. Which takes time to set up and is entirely shut down by an opposing players response I'm many cases.

That'd be a fine argument if player response were more of a factor but we are talking about pvp here. The game simply doesn't react well to most things. So having one-shot bursts that theoretically can either one-shot or be mostly avoided is just a bad design. They need to design the game around the reality of what pvp in eso is... a laggy buggy mess where people can't rely on split-second reactions.

Rataroto

jaws343 wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

If that is a dummy parse, it is hardly definitive of anything for PVP. Dummy's cannot dodge, have nearly no mitigation after pen, can't heal, can't block, can't counter attack you, don't have % mitigations, or shields. I mean, great the proc was a quarter of your DPS because it hit every time it procced. That is not a real scenario in the least.

Alright, cut that by half for being pvp;
100k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again for resistances;
50k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again cuz WHY NOT;
25k in 1 sec
Still too much damage to come out in a split second; when both Assassin's Scourge, Heavy Attack AND Whirling Blades did NOT crit. Remember that this combo is done out of stealth, meaning the initial shot of Poison Arrow will stun you and everything else will most likely come out as you are. If not, this can be timed to be done with a Dawnbreaker, which stuns through dodge cuz its AOE.

Is it a dummy burst? Yes.
Is it irrelevant to pvp analysis? No.

These 2 sets combined are insane, and this is on a nightblade for crying out loud; doing this on a DK is even worse, cuz they'll not only do more poison damage, but also proc the Maw every 10 seconds due to poison dots.

I am not saying this is a 1 to 1 translation in pvp; hell, if you parse an actual dummy Scav Maw hits for 90k...; what I'm saying is such a high damage burst shot shouldn't exist. I get it to crit for 20~40k on players in BGs all day long.

No parse you will ever do on a dummy will ever be a valid set of evidence for any PVP balancing effort. Ever. You can try to chop it up however you want. None of it is valid.

And damage per second is irrelevant in pvp anyways. It's all about burst. Which takes time to set up and is entirely shut down by an opposing players response I'm many cases.

Sure thing man lol
I'll keep doing my thing you do yours yeah?

SkaraMinoc

6 mil dummy gives the relative strength of your burst combo but it's not a good measurement of real PvP damage.

I've seen a few players use this exact build and at most I've only been bursted for ~18k damage. Maw always gets blocked. The telegraph from Maw is so long that by the time it lands I've already healed back to full (35k max health).

In general, you can follow this rule:

100k damage on 6 mil dummy = 15-30k damage in PvP

SkaraMinoc

Rataroto wrote: »

I get it to crit for 20~40k on players in BGs all day long.

Those are solo PvE players doing the Daily Random XP. They have 24k health, 15k armor, and no crit resist.

jaws343

Rataroto wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

If that is a dummy parse, it is hardly definitive of anything for PVP. Dummy's cannot dodge, have nearly no mitigation after pen, can't heal, can't block, can't counter attack you, don't have % mitigations, or shields. I mean, great the proc was a quarter of your DPS because it hit every time it procced. That is not a real scenario in the least.

Alright, cut that by half for being pvp;
100k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again for resistances;
50k in 1 sec
Now let's cut it in half again cuz WHY NOT;
25k in 1 sec
Still too much damage to come out in a split second; when both Assassin's Scourge, Heavy Attack AND Whirling Blades did NOT crit. Remember that this combo is done out of stealth, meaning the initial shot of Poison Arrow will stun you and everything else will most likely come out as you are. If not, this can be timed to be done with a Dawnbreaker, which stuns through dodge cuz its AOE.

Is it a dummy burst? Yes.
Is it irrelevant to pvp analysis? No.

These 2 sets combined are insane, and this is on a nightblade for crying out loud; doing this on a DK is even worse, cuz they'll not only do more poison damage, but also proc the Maw every 10 seconds due to poison dots.

I am not saying this is a 1 to 1 translation in pvp; hell, if you parse an actual dummy Scav Maw hits for 90k...; what I'm saying is such a high damage burst shot shouldn't exist. I get it to crit for 20~40k on players in BGs all day long.

No parse you will ever do on a dummy will ever be a valid set of evidence for any PVP balancing effort. Ever. You can try to chop it up however you want. None of it is valid.

And damage per second is irrelevant in pvp anyways. It's all about burst. Which takes time to set up and is entirely shut down by an opposing players response I'm many cases.

Sure thing man lol
I'll keep doing my thing you do yours yeah?

It's tough to just let you do your thing when your thing involves trying to argue for PVP balance after parsing on a PVE dummy.

DrSlaughtr

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Caluurions needs a nerf no question about it.

On my NB, with base mitigation, when I rarely get hit with it, it's 3 to 4k on recap. It isn't that big of a deal and it's easy to dodge.

WrathOfInnos

Shouldn't we wait for the victims to complain? I'm not sure how a hypothetical build could be considered overpowered. I'm also not sure how 4 abilities (or more if any buffs are cast before the burst), a light attack and a heavy attack can be cast within 1s. It must be spread over 3-4s, and considering there is an ultimate and two 5pc sets being used the burst doesn't really seem too crazy. Definitely some crit luck involved as well, unlikely to be repeatable since there is no room for a crit set in the build.

Danse_Mayhem

Scavenging maw doesn’t work well with caluurions at all.
Landing the incap combo from stealth will guarantee that caluurions lands but scavenging is a much longer proc, and gives plenty of time for the opponent to break free and dodge roll (which is what everyone does when they just barely survive a gank attempt anyway)

Flame blossom is a much better choice as it hits the same time as caluurions, and isn’t affected by the proc set overlap

DrSlaughtr

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Scavenging maw doesn’t work well with caluurions at all.
Landing the incap combo from stealth will guarantee that caluurions lands but scavenging is a much longer proc, and gives plenty of time for the opponent to break free and dodge roll (which is what everyone does when they just barely survive a gank attempt anyway)

Flame blossom is a much better choice as it hits the same time as caluurions, and isn’t affected by the proc set overlap

I've run both sets. Not had any issue with them firing together. The issue I ran into is that the maw is a big giant "roll dodge now" sign.

Xandreia_

Most I've personally been hit for by caluurians is over 16k it's ridiculous

Caribou77

Scavenging Maw animation doesnt work in PVP.

I get hit with it (around 10k) frequently and the animation shows up about 5% of the time.

Does this happen to anyone else? Is it perhaps affected by lag?

YandereGirlfriend

Scavenging Maw is not much of a threat due to its huge telegraph. As someone above me wrote, it's a giant "Dodge-Roll NOW sign." The only way that I get hit with it is if I get randomly stunned by a 3rd party right before the proc fires.

I legit don't know why so many NBs are running it in Cyrodiil these days because it is so easily avoided. Lack of better alternatives for ranged ganking?

fred4

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Scavenging Maw is not much of a threat due to its huge telegraph. As someone above me wrote, it's a giant "Dodge-Roll NOW sign." The only way that I get hit with it is if I get randomly stunned by a 3rd party right before the proc fires.

I legit don't know why so many NBs are running it in Cyrodiil these days because it is so easily avoided. Lack of better alternatives for ranged ganking?

We had trouble killing a dodge rolling NB in IC. One of my group mates, also a nightblade, switched to some Snipe, Scavenging Maw, Meteor build. It got that particular nightblade every time. I don't know exactly why, because Meteor is also such a telegraph to block, but apparently the combo of something like Snipe, Meteor, Snipe (+ Maw) just hits really hard, even through block. At the very least it stops opposing nightblades in their tracks and prevents them from cloaking, cause they either have to block or eat the full Meteor.

fred4

fred4 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Scavenging Maw is not much of a threat due to its huge telegraph. As someone above me wrote, it's a giant "Dodge-Roll NOW sign." The only way that I get hit with it is if I get randomly stunned by a 3rd party right before the proc fires.

I legit don't know why so many NBs are running it in Cyrodiil these days because it is so easily avoided. Lack of better alternatives for ranged ganking?

We had trouble killing a dodge rolling NB in IC. One of my group mates, also a nightblade, switched to some Snipe, Scavenging Maw, Meteor build. It got that particular nightblade every time. I don't know exactly why, because Meteor is also such a telegraph to block, but apparently the combo of something like Snipe, Meteor, Snipe (+ Maw) just hits really hard, even through block. At the very least it stops opposing nightblades in their tracks and prevents them from cloaking, cause they either have to block or eat the full Meteor.

Come to think of it, Snipe has a cast time, a travel time, and can be a stun if cast from crouch out of combat. It is also a guaranteed poison damage crit when used by a nigthblade. If, for some reason, Snipe triggered Maw a little early, e.g. before Snipe Impact, then Maw might coincide with the stun. Either that, or it simply coincides with the Meteor. Would need some testing.

Caribou77

Well, I take your word that it’s telegraphed, however, perhaps due to lag or desync, I almost never see it— at all. Yet there it is for ~10k on my death recap. Always an NB bow ganker. What am I missing?

DrSlaughtr

Caribou77 wrote: »

Well, I take your word that it’s telegraphed, however, perhaps due to lag or desync, I almost never see it— at all. Yet there it is for ~10k on my death recap. Always an NB bow ganker. What am I missing?

A little warning area grows under your feet before it appears and then it still has to attack, giving you a large amount of time to roll dodge.

YandereGirlfriend

Caribou77 wrote: »

Well, I take your word that it’s telegraphed, however, perhaps due to lag or desync, I almost never see it— at all. Yet there it is for ~10k on my death recap. Always an NB bow ganker. What am I missing?

When it's on you, there is an empty red circle outline below your character. It begins to fill in with red over the course of a second or two. If you Dodge-Roll close to when the circle fills up then you'll Dodge the damage from the proc.

Caribou77

I really appreciate the tip. Hopefully I haven't simply ignored something obvious, and it is a lag issue. I will be sure to watch closely next time I'm in a bg. Pretty embarrassing if I've been missing it for the past couple of years. ;p

Baconlad

Tons of people running it with snipe. The lag combined with the proc and three snpes all hitting at on time, makes it hard to counter at all