Official Discussion Thread for "ESO Dev Deep Dive- Designing Tamriel's Bosses, Part 1"

ZOS_Kevin

This is the official discussion thread for "ESO Developer Deep Dive- Designing Tamriel's Bosses, Part 1"

Discover how The Elder Scrolls Online’s developers design Tamriel’s many challenging bosses in part one of this deep dive series.

To celebrate the release of Ascending Tide, we asked Lead Encounter Designer Mike Finnigan and Senior Content Designer Shane Slama to share their process and knowledge surrounding the design and creation of a Dungeon or Trial boss in ESO. First up, we dive into the team’s philosophies and core design elements, plus get a complete overview of the process from start to finish.

VaranisArano

"We want to make sure that these monsters and bosses tell the story that we're looking to tell and fit in to the overall adventure."

Since this is Part 1, I'd be very curious to hear how the Devs feel about the possibility of "Story Mode" versions of the dungeons so that players can experience the dungeon portions of the Year Long Story at their own pace without needing to team up with other cooperative players or do a 4-player dungeon as just them and a companion.

It seems like that would add another layer of complexity to what's already a multi-team process. On the other hand, they already do Normal, Vet, and Hard Mode difficulty, and I would think (not being a designer myself) that it would be easier to scale down the difficulty rather than up.

Anyways, thanks for sharing some insights into how the process for creating these dungeons works!

NeeScrolls

@VaranisArano , i always enjoy reading your posts (and guides ) but since no one else has replied, i'd like to offer a somewhat opposing view here (respectfully of course) ...

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since this is Part 1, I'd be very curious to hear how the Devs feel about the possibility of "Story Mode" versions of the dungeons so that players can experience the dungeon portions of the Year Long Story at their own pace without needing to team up with other cooperative players or do a 4-player dungeon as just them and a companion.

Those 2 phrases ^ in bold sort of make the whole "story mode" thing redundant, no?

If casual players can already bring the ai (non-player) companion into typically easy-mode normal dungeon, then why bother with an even EASIER version? Seems totally unnecessary to me, especially in a MMO.

VaranisArano wrote: »

like that would add another layer of complexity to what's already a multi-team process.

How so? What "complexity" would be added? In fact, it would be just the opposite, no? Since i mean, there's really nothing complex about 1 single player strolling along content just to click & read quest npc dialogs they could just as simply watch on YouTube walk-throughs. That type of "layer" would only serve to splinter an already dwindling group queue.

VaranisArano wrote: »

On the other hand, they already do Normal, Vet, and Hard Mode difficulty,

Exactly, and again: What is preventing someone from running easy normal-mode , either with a human buddy or ai companion (or both) , slowly methodically to absorb the STORY more (or again) ?

VaranisArano wrote: »

and I would think (not being a designer myself) that it would be easier to scale down the difficulty rather than up.

I don't know much about ESO code nor infrastructure, but having been a 'Dev' on another MMO for a few years i can tell you that anytime things need to be adjusted for "difficulty" it's a real chore lol . Not to mention, nearly impossible to ever get things perfectly right for ALL types of players of all ages, shapes, sizes, skills, etc. etc.

This is one of the reasons why MMO Dev Teams constantly switch around and seek new personel so often, along with a near infinite loop of nerf/buff/tweak/revamp x infinity. (hence the whole "game systems & content is subject to change" we all sign-up for in Terms-of-Service)

But it's a moot point regardless, because the last thing ESO needs is for content to be scaled further down.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anyways, thanks for sharing some insights into how the process for creating these dungeons works!

Agreed, THANKS and i always appreciate reading behind-the-code-curtain type design intel from @ZOS_ team. Cheers!

VaranisArano

NeeScrolls wrote: »

@VaranisArano , i always enjoy reading your posts (and guides ) but since no one else has replied, i'd like to offer a somewhat opposing view here (respectfully of course) ...

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since this is Part 1, I'd be very curious to hear how the Devs feel about the possibility of "Story Mode" versions of the dungeons so that players can experience the dungeon portions of the Year Long Story at their own pace without needing to team up with other cooperative players or do a 4-player dungeon as just them and a companion.

Those 2 phrases ^ in bold sort of make the whole "story mode" thing redundant, no?

If casual players can already bring the ai (non-player) companion into typically easy-mode normal dungeon, then why bother with an even EASIER version? Seems totally unnecessary to me, especially in a MMO.

VaranisArano wrote: »

like that would add another layer of complexity to what's already a multi-team process.

How so? What "complexity" would be added? In fact, it would be just the opposite, no? Since i mean, there's really nothing complex about 1 single player strolling along content just to click & read quest npc dialogs they could just as simply watch on YouTube walk-throughs. That type of "layer" would only serve to splinter an already dwindling group queue.

VaranisArano wrote: »

On the other hand, they already do Normal, Vet, and Hard Mode difficulty,

Exactly, and again: What is preventing someone from running easy normal-mode , either with a human buddy or ai companion (or both) , slowly methodically to absorb the STORY more (or again) ?

VaranisArano wrote: »

and I would think (not being a designer myself) that it would be easier to scale down the difficulty rather than up.

I don't know much about ESO code nor infrastructure, but having been a 'Dev' on another MMO for a few years i can tell you that anytime things need to be adjusted for "difficulty" it's a real chore lol . Not to mention, nearly impossible to ever get things perfectly right for ALL types of players of all ages, shapes, sizes, skills, etc. etc.

This is one of the reasons why MMO Dev Teams constantly switch around and seek new personel so often, along with a near infinite loop of nerf/buff/tweak/revamp x infinity. (hence the whole "game systems & content is subject to change" we all sign-up for in Terms-of-Service)

But it's a moot point regardless, because the last thing ESO needs is for content to be scaled further down.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anyways, thanks for sharing some insights into how the process for creating these dungeons works!

Agreed, THANKS and i always appreciate reading behind-the-code-curtain type design intel from @ZOS_ team. Cheers!

Sure, I'm happy to discuss it!

ESO is a story-driven MMORPG based out of the Elder Scrolls franchise of single player RPGs. There's a lot of players who play for the story.

So when the Year-Long-Story has four dungeons that are markedly harder than the rest of the story content, and the Dev team is committing to using the dungeons to tell that story, I think it's worth pointing out that the whole story is not accessible to all players.

There's a segment of players who only do overland content. Whether that's by choice, because they are uncomfortable with grouping, because harder content is too difficult, or whatever their reasoning, they are not being served by the current decision to tell parts of the year-long story line in normal/veteran group dungeons.


Let me address some of your concerns.

1. Not every MMO player is willing to group up with others. Grouping up with other players requires interactions that some players are not comfortable with. We see this every year with the Undaunted Event; simply put, some players will not run dungeons if they have to group up with other players. They exist, and are currently left out of portions of the year-long story unless they watch Youtube or Streamers. (We can play the "but it's an MMO! They should group up" card if you want, but that's immaterial to the actual behavior of the playerbase.)

2. Not every dungeon is soloable even on normal, with or without Companions. Sometimes it's mechanics that require group coordination. Sometimes it's gameplay requirements that the player isn't skilled enough to meet. Some players have had good luck using a Companion, but that's not true of everyone.

3. Companions require the player to buy Blackwood, High Isle, or likely future expansions. So while it's great for the marketing department that players have to buy the tool to allow them to do dungeons without grouping up, it's not exactly accessible for every player.

4. Adding a "story mode" would be another layer of complexity to the design and construction process. Consider that ZOS has three "iterations" of the dungeon that they do: normal, veteran, and hard mode. Each iteration requires work from the team. Story Mode adds a fourth iteration, and while it would be easier gameplay, I don't want to elide the potential complexity of adding a fourth iteration at about the difficulty of an overland quest or a public dungeon.

5. ZOS already has an accepted level of difficulty to aim for: overland content and public dungeons. Trying to get things perfect for ALL players is impossible, but it's certainly possible to design a story mode dungeon that's in line with the difficulty ZOS expects their players to play at for the vast majority of the game's content including the majority of the year-long story.

6. I do not expect that Story Mode would have much of an impact on the Group finder queue. For one, I expect it to have little to zero rewards, since it's basically a story experience, so it's unlikely to attract anyone who's not there for the story. Second, the players who would benefit most from a story mode are the same players who are currently not queuing for those dungeons on normal difficulty. I don't think you'd see a difference in your queues, since the main use of story mode is to make the dungeon accessible to the sort of players who were never in your queues to begin with.


Why a story-mode for dungeons would be beneficial for ESO:

1. It allows all players to experience the year-long storyline in order at an appropriate difficulty, including new and inexperienced players. One of the oddities of the year-long storyline is that new players cannot play the normal dungeons until level 45. An accessible story mode would let them experience the story in the proper order.

2. It allows all players to experience the year-long storyline through gameplay, rather than outside sources. I don't know about you, but for me, YouTube and Streamers are a poor substitute for actually playing the game.

3. For ZOS' pocketbook, it gives all players a reason to purchase the dungeon DLC for the story, even if that player only does story mode and chooses not to run the dungeons for the normal/veteran difficulty rewards.

Thoughts?

NeeScrolls

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO is a story-driven MMORPG based out of the Elder Scrolls franchise of single player RPGs. There's a lot of players who play for the story.

Yep i'm aware, since i been here from even before 2013 beta....and would consider myself one of those "lot of players" who play (partially) for Elder Scrolls atmosphere + STORY & lore.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think it's worth pointing out that the whole story is not accessible to all players.

And i would wholeheartedly disagree with your point and use of the term "accessible" . In my opinion, that word is an inaccurate over-statement in this case.

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's a segment of players who only do overland content.

There's plenty (almost limitless amounts of quests) of story in overland. But i believe we're talkin' about dungeons, no?

VaranisArano wrote: »

1. Not every MMO player is willing to group up with others. Grouping up with other players requires interactions that some players are not comfortable with.

I understand and that's totally fine of course.

But i just personally don't believe ESO needs to add more code to cater even more to solo players. 'Companions' system was supposed to already take care of that enough, no?

VaranisArano wrote: »

2. Not every dungeon is soloable even on normal, with or without Companions. Sometimes it's mechanics that require group coordination.

That's a fair point, however....well...2 things: First , this is by design in a MMO , to encourage human-to-human group play.

And secondly: Why not , instead of some superfluous empty "story mode" , just add new ai for companions to be able to click 'levers' or other very basic mechanics?

VaranisArano wrote: »

3. Companions require the player to buy Blackwood, High Isle, or likely future expansions. So while it's great for the marketing department that players have to buy the tool to allow them to do dungeons without grouping up, it's not exactly accessible for every player.

Again, i take issue with your use of the word "accessible" , since it doesn't really apply.

Furthermore--and this may sound harsh-- why should a company provide a "tool" that would de-incentivize greater social interaction? Do we really want people (in-game or in-life) to be MORE isolated in their own private 'metaverse' ?!

VaranisArano wrote: »

4. Adding a "story mode" would be another layer of complexity to the design and construction process.

Sorry but i just simply disagree with your premise.

A story-mode, by defiinition, is less complex. So i fail to see how it would add "another layer" . All it would do, imho, is let solo players run dungeons in ultra-easy-mode , by themselves, ad-nauseum....thereby de-value'ing the very story content they supposedly crave & enjoy.

VaranisArano wrote: »

6. I do not expect that Story Mode would have much of an impact on the Group finder queue. For one, I expect it to have little to zero rewards,

Well, you wouldn't know the impact until it was too late to turn back lol. But yes i agree, there shouldn't be ANY rewards at all for such a mode....imo. (the "reward" would be the instance itself anyway)

VaranisArano wrote: »

One of the oddities of the year-long storyline is that new players cannot play the normal dungeons until level 45. An accessible story mode would let them experience the story in the proper order.

Players can already do the story in proper order though. And once again, that level "gate" is by Dev design and for good reason. Otherwise the already daunting free-for-all of ESO would become even more daunting to a new player.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I don't know about you, but for me, YouTube and Streamers are a poor substitute for actually playing the game.

Tell that to @ZOS_ influencers lol . But anyways, yes i agree and i was just using that as an example to reinforce my point.

VaranisArano wrote: »

3. For ZOS' pocketbook, it gives all players a reason to purchase the dungeon DLC for the story, even if that player only does story mode and chooses not to run the dungeons for the normal/veteran difficulty rewards.

I just think you're reaching for something that isn't needed. And i don't believe ESO should waste precious coding time & effort, just to cater to some solo fringe few players who either refuse to group or refuse to join a guild, so that they might re-run a dungeon once or twice for reading quest dialogs slower.

Rather than having to embark upon any re-code re-calibration effort, they (ESO Devs) could implement my previously posted idea (in another thread) which would allow players who have already completed the dungeon ONCE (grouped) to unlock a 'ghost view mode' , rendering the player invisible to combat but able to interact with quest npc's & dialogs & scenes, etc.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thoughts?

i think we probably won't ever agree, philosophically, on this particular topic. But it sure does make for a healthy debate.

./tip-hat

jaws343

I agree with Varanis that a story mode would be a useful add-on to the dungeon experience. One with zero rewards (outside of maybe the 1 quest coffer you get for completing the quest since you wouldn't be able to repeat the quest on a higher difficulty I'd expect), and even less XP than what is already available in a dungeon.

I think adding a story mode provides a ton of benefit for player who run dungeons and those who avoid them, especially in the context of year long stories.

Firstly, players who do not run dungeons due to not wanting to group up and/or just being unable to do them for whatever reason, be it skill, disability, etc, are players who are not buying the dungeons and are unable to experience the stories involved meaningfully. So, Zos sells more dungeon DLCs to non ESO+ players who want to experience the story.

Secondly, the players who do the normal modes, but only want to be their for the story, constantly complain about dungeon speed, other players not waiting, missing bits of the story. It provides an all around poor experience both for the players wanting to experience the story and players wanting challenging dungeon content. Removing those players from the normal queue means that more of the players in the queue are there to run dungeons for the sake of running dungeons, which is likely to lead to a far more healthier experience for everyone involved.

Third, adding a story mode would still require players to play the actual normal or vet modes for gear. In the current iteration, players who only want the story do the dungeon once and then never set foot in them again. So losing them on that 1 run is pretty meaningless overall. But players are still going to keep at the dungeons in normal or vet for gear, motifs, pledges, antiquities, achievements etc. For example, I'd definitely make my first quest playthrough of a new dungeon be story mode, to experience the dialogue and the story without any issues and without having to be hyperfocused on soloing normal to do so. And then every subsequent run would be on normal or vet. But at least the option to get a real experience of the story and quest involved would be available to a player.

I do want to add, I think that the point of "complexity" is being misunderstood in the context that Varanis is saying it.

Yes, a lower difficulty mode for story would be less complex than the difficulties we already have. But that is not what complexity is being refered to here. What is more complex is adding another layer into the game for this extra difficulty. 2 (normal/vet) difficulties is less complex a system than 3 (normal/vet/story).

ZOS_Kevin

HI All,

We now have a part 2 of the Designing Tamriel's Bosses.