newbie question: DPS I should be aiming for as a DD in dungeons?

architekt

Technically my account isn't new, I'm just new at running dungeons and returning to the game from years off and even then I never ran them, just played the solo story content. For running normal dungeons, is there a minimum and ideal DPS target I should aim for? I hear it differs based on DLC and original dungeons. Regarding veteran (not hard mode, whatever that is) versions same question. I heard you technically only need roughly 7kish spell penetration (bosses 18.2k) due to buffs from tank/healer. I currently have 7200ish and about 66% crit. I tried practicing on my veteran target dummy but I can't seem to break 22k dps. I do as a magplar have a spell on my bar that lowers the enemy's spell res by about 5k which I used on the dummy. I'm guessing part of this could be that the dummy has 18.2k res and solo I just don't have the pen needed to have higher dps? Anyway, I'm hesitant to go into a vet dungeon without knowing a rough DPS amount I should be pulling so I don't hinder the group. Thanks!

WhiteCoatSyndrome

architekt wrote: »

Regarding veteran (not hard mode, whatever that is) versions same question.

I usually heal, so the DPS specific questions I can’t help with but Hard Mode usually involves reading a particular scroll or otherwise interacting with something in Veteran dungeons to make the last boss of the dungeon more difficult to defeat. You can usually find out the details of what you need to do for Hard Mode when you take the Pledge for that dungeon - it’ll be listed as ‘optional’.

El_Borracho

I'm assuming you are using a trial dummy

For base vet dungeons, the "1s" if you will, I'd say around 40K would do, but in reality, any DPS will do

For the "2s" dungeons and things like Arx or Tempest, maybe a little more. For example, the last boss in Darkshade 2 gets harder the less DPS the group has

For the DLC's at least 60K but the more the better. But the more important thing with DLC dungeons is knowing mechanics. Rather have a 60K DD that knows mech over a 100K DD that just wants to burn down everything.

I don't know what your setup is, but you should be looking to maximize damage skills. You don't need something like Elemental Drain or any debuffs. The tank and/or the healer in a vet dungeon should be doing that. I run a magplar with Wall of Elements, Mystic Orb, Harness Magicka, Solar Barrage, and Breath of Life (my OH NO heal) on the back bar, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep (I like the AOE and heal for dungeons), Inner Light, a content-specific damage skill, and Radiant Destruction (execute). Ultis are Flawless Dawnbreaker and Shooting Star. I wear Medusa and Bahsei's in dungeons with Kjalnar's monster set. You could swap out Bahsel's for Mother's Sorrow and be fine. And always the VMA destro on the back bar.

Don't be afraid of running vet dungeons because of your DPS. The worst that will happen is someone will say something rude and quit or the group will kick you. Work on your rotation, learn mechanics, and just play the game. I remember when I first ran something like Cradle of Shadows. Thought it was the hardest dungeon ever. It still blows, but familiarity increases your DPS. Have fun. Its a game.

Loralai_907

I absolutely understand where you are coming from. Many moons ago, I wasn't running dungeons either, and the idea of going in and holding up a group when I didn't know what I was doing was just a lot. What got me running dungeons was a guild I joined. A PvP guild to be specific, which was weird and unexpected lol. But, I met these amazing people and we ran dungeons together and with the help of one lady in particular guiding me with what builds I should be following and just being super amazing and supportive with everyone she ran content with, building them up, and I've now done almost all the dungeons on normal and vet, almost all of the trials on normal and some on vet, every arena. I'm just a bit behind now after a bit of a break from ESO, so have to update my build and play catch up. So my advice is to join friendly guilds and be a little chatty. Running content you aren't super comfy with is WAY better with friendly folks than it is with strangers in my opinion. I don't know that I ever would have completed a lot of the more advanced PvE things I have done over the last few years without this group of people coming into my life.

Not sure what build you have, if you are following anyone in particular, but I personally like Xynode's builds for PvE content. And a friend of mine swears by Hack the Minotaur's builds.

And lastly, I'm not sure what platform you are on, or what your hours are like. But if you are on PC/NA, I'd be happy to grab a couple folks I know and we can take you through some dungeons

Bitter_Apple21

@architekt

Gonna be interested in this post. I went from DPS to now running tank, and occasionally I go back to DPS. Running Magplar, and I have a Ogrim dummy target.

My practice numbers are - to be kind - low, but on one forum someone did mention that it might be that the dummy I am using does NOT have the debuffs that might occur in dungeon, and that is what is causing my numbers. Whereas with the CMX addon someone told me to put in, I saw much higher numbers in dungeon.

So I am gonna be interested in what answers come from your question.

As to getting back into vet dungeons, to add to the points from @El_Borracho and @Loralai_907 , as the tank, do not worry about the vet base dungeons. if I am doing my job, it will not be the DPS. There might be some mechanics that can stress things, but those are different from pure damage output.

Step into the water and enjoy.

architekt

Thanks for the tips. I'm on PC-NA. I'm using a vet boss dummy to test on. As for my gear, I have 5x light mother's sorrow (divines, 3 jewelry 2 armor), 5x light law of julianos (divines, 1 piece being weapon), and am using inferno staves on both bars. Bar 1 is fiery weapon enchant/precise, bar 2 is weapon damage enchantment/infused. I don't have any monster set stuff besides some shoulder pieces I got from the undaunted store, haven't had any helms drop (only playing normal dungeons atm) so I don't have any equipped. All gear is yellow that I crafted (while not playing for a long time I did at least manage to keep my crafting character constantly researching so have that guy maxed on crafting). Currently using thief boon.

Originally, as far as skills went, I tried using the ones from this guide: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-build-pve/#skills but I couldn't get my dps up much, in fact, it was worse than my solo build. That could be of course most likely due to non familiarity with the rotation. Also had issues with keeping my mana up. I tried using this which I somewhat made up instead, which is where I found my highest dps at 22-24k on the vet boss dummy (with ~7200 base spell pen 66% crit):

bar 1: Inner Light, Degeneration, Radiant Glory (boss under ~35% spammer), Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep (main spammer), Elemental Rage ulti

bar 2: Channeled Focus, Elemental Drain, Destructive Reach, Solar Barrage, Unstable Wall of Elements, Ice Comet ulti

I guess I technically shouldn't have to bring ED to a fight as previous posters mentioned and could replace it with Mystic Orb. I found though that by using Degeneration and Destructive Reach and keeping them up, my dps increased over the build I linked.

My biggest problem with wanting to even try vet is that I straight up can't learn the mechanics in normal dungeons because every group I join the players are like CP level 1800 and can basically solo everything so I have like rarely any time to try and get good at my rotations, let alone even worry about the mechanics. I mean, I get why that is, it just means that to do vet dungeons I feel like it's going to wind up being something akin to a study session where I have to watch the fights before hand for every possible random dungeon I may get into and memorize them, which seems a bit daunting to say the least.

Bitter_Apple21

@architekt

architekt wrote: »

My biggest problem with wanting to even try vet is that I straight up can't learn the mechanics in normal dungeons because every group I join the players are like CP level 1800 and can basically solo everything so I have like rarely any time to try and get good at my rotations, let alone even worry about the mechanics. I mean, I get why that is, it just means that to do vet dungeons I feel like it's going to wind up being something akin to a study session where I have to watch the fights before hand for every possible random dungeon I may get into and memorize them, which seems a bit daunting to say the least.

The other folks might be able to give some better advice.

The only thing I have tried to do is right out of the gate, I tell the group that I am

"...running for the first time, trying to learn dungeon...".

Sometimes I get a nice answer and sometimes I do not get an answer.

Good luck, and if you need a tank.....

El_Borracho

@architekt I figured your setup was something like that. Its not bad. One thing you need to know about Alcast builds is that they are mostly trial-focused and assume you can do a strong rotation. I'm familiar with that build and its not the easiest to run. The Channeled Acceleration/Elemental Weapon thing is easy to miss when in combat and the animation on the Ele Weapon is wonky. It takes some practice.

First and easiest way to up your DPS: get the VMA inferno staff. Run it on normal, its easy to get RNG permitting. It will help.

Two easy and effective monster sets to get are Grothdarr from Vaults of Madness and Ilambris from Crypt 1. They are solid and will help get other sets. Selene's and Stormfist are viable for damage, but the first piece is stamina. Maw of the Infernal is a bit harder to get out of Banished 2, but a good set. Zaan and Kjanar's are my preferred sets, but harder to get.

Go farm Arx for Medusa on normal for jewels and staves to replace Julianos. In the meantime, slot Trap Beast on one of your bars to get a similar effect.

Someone might recommend the kilt. Its good, but you have to be good at not taking damage and/or rebuilding stacks. If you are just starting out on vet dungeons, its not ideal at this time.

jaws343

I'm just going to throw this out there, 40K, 50K, 60K recommendations for dungeon content are insane. They are certainly attainable, I clear 45K on my solo build (which can solo most vet/non-dlc dungeons), but unless you are directly pushing for speed runs, 20K is enough to clear every single vet dungeon in the game. 30K is probably the bar for more comfortable runs in DLC vet dungeons from the last 3 years or so. The only time you really need anything more than that is for speed runs and when the other DPS on the team can't even hit 15K let alone 20K.

Elendir2am

@architekt

You can do several things to increase your DPS. Most of them demand to go through some dungeon, arena, or trial. I will let others to advice about it. Instead that, I will tell you one easy way, you can increase your DPS by a few percent.

Go to "fighter guild" skills, buy "Dawnbreaker" and place it on your front bar. You will use your ultimate from back bar only from now. Then buy all levels of "Slayer", passive also from "fighter guild" skills.

Hey, you increase your DPS through passive bonus now.

FluffyReachWitch

I’ve been running dungeons for a few years now, and I did weekly trials for about a year, so what I’m going to say might sound weird. My biggest piece of advice is don’t think too hard about the numbers.

The numbers that people get on target dummies are rarely a reflection of what they can do trials and dungeons. Most of the time, people showing off their builds will use trial dummies that mimic the circumstances of having a fully optimized group. While this is possible in trials, it requires a lot of work and planning, especially on the part of the tanks and healers. Performance in dungeons can be much lower in terms of raw damage, while enemies still melt regardless.

Veteran dummies don't provide the same buffs or resources, so your numbers on those will naturally be lower. Getting 22-24K on a veteran dummy isn't a bad thing, especially if nobody is buffing you but yourself. As in trials, ideal circumstances in dungeons involve work and planning from the tank and healer, not just the raw power of the DPS. And you're not likely to get ideal circumstances in the group finder. That's okay.

As you already know, rotation matters. I’m not going to spend much time on that because you’ve already got the idea. Keeping up all your damage over time skills does help. So does light attack weaving, although that can be tricky at first.

Sometimes people will tell you not to use buffs, debuffs, or heals because that’s not your job, but this mainly applies to trial and veteran dungeon groups where everything is planned in advance. When you don’t know who you’ll be running with, it’s not guaranteed that the tank and healer will bring support skills to the table. So it doesn’t hurt to bring your own as backup.

As for equipment, Law of Julianos and Mother’s Sorrow is a solid classic, so you’re good there. In place of a monster helm and shoulder, you can get away with crafting two pieces of gear from a single set to get a slight buff in something like magicka recovery. It’s not as strong, but it helps a bit. Having a mythic item instead of a full monster set is nice too, but mythics can be hard to acquire.

You’re also right that practice matters. Not just learning mechanics, but also being able to develop awareness on the battlefield, learning how to fight under pressure, and doing more complex stuff like keeping up a rotation while mobile.

I would actually recommend trying out some of the base game normal dungeons alone or with a friend. It’ll be hard at first, but most of these dungeons can be done solo with enough practice, and they’ll give you the environment you need to learn. Bringing a healing skill or two and a damage shield skill will help. You will probably die a lot, but it’s all part of the learning process.

If you want to take that approach, and you have Blackwood, it wouldn’t hurt to bring Bastian or Mirri to reduce the pressure. They are not required, and they need training and gear, but they’re useful in a pinch.

The rest is food to get higher resources and/or recovery (I like Witchmother's Potent Brew here) and potions to help if your health or resources get too low.

architekt

All very good advice in here, thanks people.

Necrotech_Master

architekt wrote: »

Thanks for the tips. I'm on PC-NA. I'm using a vet boss dummy to test on. As for my gear, I have 5x light mother's sorrow (divines, 3 jewelry 2 armor), 5x light law of julianos (divines, 1 piece being weapon), and am using inferno staves on both bars. Bar 1 is fiery weapon enchant/precise, bar 2 is weapon damage enchantment/infused. I don't have any monster set stuff besides some shoulder pieces I got from the undaunted store, haven't had any helms drop (only playing normal dungeons atm) so I don't have any equipped. All gear is yellow that I crafted (while not playing for a long time I did at least manage to keep my crafting character constantly researching so have that guy maxed on crafting). Currently using thief boon.

Originally, as far as skills went, I tried using the ones from this guide: https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-build-pve/#skills but I couldn't get my dps up much, in fact, it was worse than my solo build. That could be of course most likely due to non familiarity with the rotation. Also had issues with keeping my mana up. I tried using this which I somewhat made up instead, which is where I found my highest dps at 22-24k on the vet boss dummy (with ~7200 base spell pen 66% crit):

bar 1: Inner Light, Degeneration, Radiant Glory (boss under ~35% spammer), Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep (main spammer), Elemental Rage ulti

bar 2: Channeled Focus, Elemental Drain, Destructive Reach, Solar Barrage, Unstable Wall of Elements, Ice Comet ulti

I guess I technically shouldn't have to bring ED to a fight as previous posters mentioned and could replace it with Mystic Orb. I found though that by using Degeneration and Destructive Reach and keeping them up, my dps increased over the build I linked.

My biggest problem with wanting to even try vet is that I straight up can't learn the mechanics in normal dungeons because every group I join the players are like CP level 1800 and can basically solo everything so I have like rarely any time to try and get good at my rotations, let alone even worry about the mechanics. I mean, I get why that is, it just means that to do vet dungeons I feel like it's going to wind up being something akin to a study session where I have to watch the fights before hand for every possible random dungeon I may get into and memorize them, which seems a bit daunting to say the least.

i think ive seen it posted somewhere before, but when parsing on the 6 mil dummy (vet dungeon boss dummy) the general rule for dmg approximation is:

• 10k-: low
• 20k: average
• 30k: above average
• 40k+: top tier (this one equates to the people hitting 90k+ dps on a trial dummy)

so if you are hitting between 20k and 30k on the 6 mil dummy, then your already doing good and probably slightly above average dmg

for your other note about the dungeon mechanics, you can either:

• attempt to solo the dungeon on normal or
• queue for a vet dungeon, but only a specific one you want to learn mechanics for (you wont get the random bonus but if you want to learn this is better) or
• go in with a preformed group (usually in DLC dungeons if i notice people are low cp, ill ask if anyone has done the dungeon before and explain mechs along the way, even on normal ones)

architekt

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

for your other note about the dungeon mechanics, you can either:

• attempt to solo the dungeon on normal or
• queue for a vet dungeon, but only a specific one you want to learn mechanics for (you wont get the random bonus but if you want to learn this is better) or
• go in with a preformed group (usually in DLC dungeons if i notice people are low cp, ill ask if anyone has done the dungeon before and explain mechs along the way, even on normal ones)

Actually, maybe I'll do that. Read up on a specific vet dungeon that has a set or piece of gear I want so I have the theory already in mind, and then just run that one dungeon until I am comfortable with it.

Bitter_Apple21

@architekt

Okay, this thread answers some of my DPS questions.

So for what it is worth, your numbers are fine. From personal experience, my target dummy numbers are only about 12k-13k and I have run vet base and normal DLC dungeons with no issue. This seems to translate into in dungeon numbers of 25k or so.

So, from past experience, the points of @jaws343 are bang on.

So, if you are running 20k+ on the undebuffed dummy, you are definitely fine for dungeons.

El_Borracho

jaws343 wrote: »

I'm just going to throw this out there, 40K, 50K, 60K recommendations for dungeon content are insane. They are certainly attainable, I clear 45K on my solo build (which can solo most vet/non-dlc dungeons), but unless you are directly pushing for speed runs, 20K is enough to clear every single vet dungeon in the game. 30K is probably the bar for more comfortable runs in DLC vet dungeons from the last 3 years or so. The only time you really need anything more than that is for speed runs and when the other DPS on the team can't even hit 15K let alone 20K.

You're not wrong, but running a vet DLC with two 20-30K DPS is going to let you experience every mechanic, possibly multiple times. For instance, the formerly mentioned Cradle of Shadows. You're going to do the banished sequence several times if both DDs are that level. Or Falkreath Hold, where you might run out of pillars.

The 40, 50, 60 numbers were from experience, both as a DD and a tank, as in those make the run easier and can make up for mistakes. They are not requirements by any means. But if you are just starting out with doing vet DLCs, you should put out more DPS than what you can get by with in Elden Hollow 1.

EDIT: Again, these DPS numbers are from a trials dummy. If you are putting up 20+ on a 6 mil dummy, that's more than enough for most dungeons, including DLCs.