Combat Prayer cost is NOT okay

p00tx

Dear Zos,

Just as dps in trials have spammables like elemental weapon, force pulse, Necro skulls, etc, healers too have a spammable. We use Combat Prayer, which offers a nice directional aoe heal, plus two very helpful buffs that organized groups depend on, minor berserk and minor resolve. Before this new patch, it was the best, most well rounded skill in a healer's toolkit. However, with this patch, it received a massive cost increase alongside a rather sizeable healing increase. This cost increase is making it impossible to use this skill as a spammable, making it more difficult to keep up the needed buffs and provide our groups with the needed maintenance healing in fights.

Here's the thing: literally no one asked for the healing increase. It doesn't even add to our toolkit in any sort of useful way. No healer ever has ever said "Man, I really wish my already strong AoE heal hit harder. We might have survived that boss fight". That's just not how healing in this particular game works. We rely on carefully keeping up a selection of strong heals over time, and use bursts to fill in any needed gaps. If your Hots are kept up properly on a proper build, you shouldn't need big burst heals to fill those gaps.

Combat Prayer is also a smart heal, meaning it targets players in its field of effect who are missing the most health. This is a fantastic mechanism that was added to the resto skills. However, the buff is not a smart buff, which necessitates casting the skill more than twice for the healers to cover the entire group, and so, it becomes a spammable heal. We've found workarounds like separating dps into two distinct stacks so the buff is easier to keep up, but not all content allows that, and some content even requires dps to spread out, which means several casts of the skill are needed to distribute the buff. In its current iteration, healing feels terrible. On certain fights, I've had to swap out my spell dmg jewelry glyphs for all recovery, which decreases my healing output, which is super detrimental in some of the newer content, and even then with all recovery glyphs, I'm still hurting for resources. I will be trying the Atro mundus next, but it's absolutely ridiculous that we have to spec entirely into sustain just to function properly. If dps were forced to do this, they'd have a meltdown. Healers should not have to build this way either.

There are some possible solutions:

1. Revert the change. It was not needed, and there are not enough aoe burst heals in the game for an "AoE burst heal standard" to have existed, as was claimed. Especially since the only two that are ever used were both changed this patch. A standard was created ex nihilo this patch in order to justify these changes, so it [the standard] can be adjusted to make the skills more usable.

2. Separate the heal from the buff, and make the buff a smart targeted buff like the treatment PA was given (We loved this btw. Absolutely brilliant change to the skill and very well implemented). This would help halfway, since we really don't have room on our bars for two maintenance AoE heals, but halfway is better than nothing.

3. Leave the Combat Prayer heal as-is and revert the cost increase. There is still no need for a burst heal that strong, but if people are really adamant about hanging onto it for some reason, the cost is still far too high and needs to be adjusted. We just cannot sustain it while properly keeping up buffs.

4. Any combination of the previous three. Giving Combat Prayer a smart targeted buff (like PA) while reducing the cost would be the gold standard ideal in any situation, but I'm not really holding my breath with that one.


PS. Yes, I'm aware that Kinras exists, but anyone who has used it extensively already knows it's an unreliable proc and tends to go to summoned pets as often as it targets actual players. The uptimes on it are also not stellar. It cannot supplant a diligent healer applying the buff.

FantasticFreddie

Yeah of all the nonsensical healing changes this patch, the combat prayer cost increase was the most noticeable, and most annoying. Even my Bretons are having a hard time with sustain! Devs need to stop relying on aligning to a spreadsheet and look and how certain skills actually get used.

Amottica

Considering the duration of the valuable buffs which they also increased to 10 seconds from 8 seconds, I expect this heal is not intended to be a spamable. Granted, we can choose to spam any skill but there are probably better choices for a spamable heal.

Even then, as a spamable heal, they increased the cost by about a 1/3 and increased the cost by almost a similar amount. So anyone wanting to use it as spam is getting about the same bang for the buck.

It would be nice if they included their reason for the change.

p00tx

Amottica wrote: »

Considering the duration of the valuable buffs which they also increased to 10 seconds from 8 seconds, I expect this heal is not intended to be a spamable. Granted, we can choose to spam any skill but there are probably better choices for a spamable heal.

Even then, as a spamable heal, they increased the cost by about a 1/3 and increased the cost by almost a similar amount. So anyone wanting to use it as spam is getting about the same bang for the buck.

It would be nice if they included their reason for the change.

Respectfully, I don't think there are many things in this game that they "intend". I think they make the changes, and we figure out how to use them. As it stands, all mid and upper tier healers use this skill as their spammable.

The majority of the heal it provides is also completely wasted. You only need to provide enough healing to replace your target's lost health. Dps don't generally run more than 18k-24k health unbuffed, and you're rarely going to be healing someone for the entirety of their HP value. You're not actually getting anything from the increased heal. It was a pointless addition.

If you read back through my post, you'll find where I explained why there is currently a need to spam this skill in content.

AcadianPaladin

My healer does not really run with highly skilled groups who have good positional discipline and are a solid team coordinated via voice comms. Therefore, Combat Prayer does not earn a slot on her skill bars.

For the healing my elf does, the buff is too short for how hard it is to ensure all get it and we don't consider any heal a candidate for 'burst heal' unless it reaches out to a full 28m.

Janni

As a PvP healer I thought that change was odd too. I use the other morph that gives an armor buff but it is still my goto tool for keeping people and myself alive when stuff and fans collide.

The cost increase was not my favorite thing to see but the the increase to healing was... I don't know? I like that it is a stronger heal since in PvP the stronger the better but at the same time I'm not sure why. It was already incredibly powerful last patch and now it's even moreso. And it really didn't take any extra effort on my part to sustain but being a pvper I guess we tend to already have better sustain than our pve counterparts.

Overall even though the change mostly benefits me I'm still in the same boat as you - wondering why this was targeted. And why someone thought this of all things was what needed a looksee (*cough cough* dark conversion *cough cough*)

LesserCircle

We're shouting into an echo chamber people, they changed it because they wanted to. We complain all the time about changes but in their mind it's always "They will get used to it and adapt". Sorry for all healers.

bachpain

You are getting it all wrong. The game is getting rid of the healing role again. With the new hybridization there is no need for a dedicated healer role anymore. Just need enough cross heals from the abilities empowered so greatly now on DPS toons and the group is fine. Working as intended. In fact, probably no real need for a tank any longer either, just slap a taunt on someone and keep that nuke rolling. I can't wait to see the all DPS clear videos on YouTube.

the1andonlyskwex

Amottica wrote: »

Considering the duration of the valuable buffs which they also increased to 10 seconds from 8 seconds, I expect this heal is not intended to be a spamable. Granted, we can choose to spam any skill but there are probably better choices for a spamable heal.

Even then, as a spamable heal, they increased the cost by about a 1/3 and increased the cost by almost a similar amount. So anyone wanting to use it as spam is getting about the same bang for the buck.

It would be nice if they included their reason for the change.

I agree with most of this. They did give a reason for the change though, "this ability and its morphs now follow the Area of Effect burst heal standards".

It's pretty clear from other skills that burst heals and buffs aren't meant to be spammed, and this change pretty much just brings Combat Prayer in line with that standard.

LurgidBean

p00tx wrote: »

As it stands, all mid and upper tier healers use this skill as their spammable.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

It's pretty clear from other skills that burst heals and buffs aren't meant to be spammed, and this change pretty much just brings Combat Prayer in line with that standard.

Exactly this. The devs have made it pretty clear they don't like one skill being used by a large number of players, in ways they didn't intend, to avoid; using other skills in their toolkit, playing the game, mechanics or content. Like the Mistform nerf.

They are changing it *because* every healer is using it exactly the same way. If it wasn't the "Gold Standard" spammable chosen by/required for healers, it wouldn't have gotten the attention necessary for the rework in the first place.

CP5

It's used for the buff, and getting the buff to reliably hit an entire raid can be a chore, just given how the game decides who to give the buff to. There's a reason in pve why combat prayer is the go-to morph, not for the healing, but the buff. This change mostly goes to show they don't understand that this skill was used differently than their spreadsheet guided standard of 'aoe burst heal.' The others are used almost exclusively for the heal, where this skill was mostly not, and a majority of the time the bulk of the heal was wasted because, again, it was cast to apply the buff. A pointless change that only suits to make their numbers look better, just like their nerfing of bursting vines to heal for just shy of what an aoe burst heal would do.

guarstompemoji

It would have been good if, with the 33% cost increase to what was a spammable, the buff had been made into a smart buff.

MEBengalsFan2001

Spamming Blessing of Protection or its morphs is a waste of your resources. Blessing of Protection or its morphs are meant to be used to buff your group up for 10 / 20 seconds with minor resolve. If you use Blessing of Protection or its morphs with Radiating Regeneration and Grand Healing and its morphs you should have more than enough healing to keep most groups alive. You can add to this one or two class skills for additional healing.

Just don't understand why people spam buffs; its not like you can stack the buff up.

p00tx

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Spamming Blessing of Protection or its morphs is a waste of your resources. Blessing of Protection or its morphs are meant to be used to buff your group up for 10 / 20 seconds with minor resolve. If you use Blessing of Protection or its morphs with Radiating Regeneration and Grand Healing and its morphs you should have more than enough healing to keep most groups alive. You can add to this one or two class skills for additional healing.

Just don't understand why people spam buffs; its not like you can stack the buff up.

We spam it for the minor berserk primarily, and because, as I explained in length, minor berserk does not smart target, you sometimes need to cast the skill 3-4 times to get the buff onto all of your dps. Radiating regen is a super situational heal that doesn't get used in most boss fight comps in organized groups. That skill is for mobile, ranged fights, add pulls, and pvp. We use a combo of Illustrious Healing, Altar, Orb, and class HoTs and then seed the spaces in between with duff/debuff skills like Frost Cloak, Power of the Light, or Combat Prayer, with CbP being a useful spammable in between when there are no hots that need refreshing.

ixthUA

Being warden, i dont use it at all. Kinras gives minor+major berserk, frost cloak gives major resistances.

Treeshka

Nowadays many damage dealer are using Kinras which provides the Minor Berserk buff which also comes from Combat Prayer so healers do not need to spam this ability to give that buff to the group. Its heal on the meantime is a lot and i think in the category of the burst heal. But since it can heal maximum of six person at once the cost is fine.

Janni

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Spamming Blessing of Protection or its morphs is a waste of your resources. Blessing of Protection or its morphs are meant to be used to buff your group up for 10 / 20 seconds with minor resolve. If you use Blessing of Protection or its morphs with Radiating Regeneration and Grand Healing and its morphs you should have more than enough healing to keep most groups alive. You can add to this one or two class skills for additional healing.

Just don't understand why people spam buffs; its not like you can stack the buff up.

In PvP situations, spamming this skill nonstop might save some people from an untimely demise. Players are pretty clever and come up with all kinds of ways to kill you that NPCs never could. That being said, a stronger heal with a higher costs totally makes sense in this case but I think it was still pretty un-needed.

FeedbackOnly

Nah, I think some healers weren't building into sustain and instead damage.

It's a good move to separate DPS and healer role.

I respectfully disagree.

WabanakiWarrior

PVP input here. The change was needed imo. If you are using it to self buff during a fight, the heal was absolute garbage. Just no where close to the effectiveness of any other heal. Like a tiny little do nothing kind of a heal. Both buffs are powerful though and worth slotting, but the duration was so low that for the most part, I couldn't waste a gcd in the middle of a hard fight to cast it. Like, if I was under pressure from multiple opponents in a prolonged fight, I can cast combat prayer for the minor resolve, hit a burst heal to stay alive, then use the minor berserk to turn and burn (and by that point only have 4 seconds left to use it before having to recast). It's so annoying having to a hit a heal after casting combat prayer. Combat prayer is supposed to be a heal, not just a buff. This change makes a lot of sense to me. And it makes sense there would be a cost increase there.
From reading the pve complaints, it seems the ability is in need of different changes to avoid the need to spam it.

AcadianPaladin

To gain my interest, this is what would be required:

Both morphs 20 seconds, give minor resists, minor berserk and a corridor that reaches out to 28m.
One morph's heal is a burst and the other morph's heal is a HoT.

Anything less than that and I can't justify the precious bar space.

Necrotech_Master

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

To gain my interest, this is what would be required:

Both morphs 20 seconds, give minor resists, minor berserk and a corridor that reaches out to 28m.
One morph's heal is a burst and the other morph's heal is a HoT.

Anything less than that and I can't justify the precious bar space.

28 meter might be too much, but i could definitely get behind it being more of a HOT, although having option through morphs would be nice

Xuhora

we started a godslayer progressgroup 2 weeks ago. i am assigned to groupheal during lokke, so im also in charge of buffing the 8 DDs (and the 2 pets, unfortunatly) right in front of me.
everey time i look at the logs or the cmx after the fight im shattered by how low the uptime on minor berserk is. same goes with Powerfull assault. i cast both spells twice, back to back in every rotation, and the uptimes are abismal. Just because these buffs decide to do what ever the frick they want.

I would be totally A okay with the increase in cost of combat prayer IF ONLY it would buff the right people. I was so frustrated after yesterdays raid that i wanted to start a thread this morning, and here i am after finding this.

Im not sure, but it feels like that CP and PA both can apply to the same target when casting twice, thus resetting the timer, instead of buffing the target right next to it. Otherwise i cant explain the abismal uptimes in my group.

anyway, thanks for the thread pootx, im off to spamming CP and PA three times in a row until they give these buffs the major intellect buff, so that they are smart

p00tx

Xuhora wrote: »

we started a godslayer progressgroup 2 weeks ago. i am assigned to groupheal during lokke, so im also in charge of buffing the 8 DDs (and the 2 pets, unfortunatly) right in front of me.
everey time i look at the logs or the cmx after the fight im shattered by how low the uptime on minor berserk is. same goes with Powerfull assault. i cast both spells twice, back to back in every rotation, and the uptimes are abismal. Just because these buffs decide to do what ever the frick they want.

I would be totally A okay with the increase in cost of combat prayer IF ONLY it would buff the right people. I was so frustrated after yesterdays raid that i wanted to start a thread this morning, and here i am after finding this.

Im not sure, but it feels like that CP and PA both can apply to the same target when casting twice, thus resetting the timer, instead of buffing the target right next to it. Otherwise i cant explain the abismal uptimes in my group.

anyway, thanks for the thread pootx, im off to spamming CP and PA three times in a row until they give these buffs the major intellect buff, so that they are smart

I feel that frustration. I can point you to some killer addons that have helped me with this issue a little. Message me if you're interested and I'll pass the info along.

CP5

That's exactly it WabanakiWarrior, if we only needed to re-cast it to keep the buff up then the increased cost wouldn't be the worst, though in pve the heal is so powerful that most cast will have a majority of the heal going to waste, but since buff application is a nightmare the skill has to be cast far more often, and since this always comes up whenever a new buff set or skill is added it is something ZOS isn't particularly good at fixing. Something like the Spaulder of Ruin, when running 2 in group, doesn't always actually apply it to everyone, despite technically having enough of the buff going out to hit everyone in the raid.

BXR_Lonestar

I'm on console, so I haven't played with the new changes, but if this is true, what really needs to be done IMO is combat prayer buffs need to have an extended duration. I probably over-cast combat prayer just a little bit to maintain a high uptime on the buffs, and if the cost increased, that is what is going to be difficult about cost increase - keeping that high uptime. If it is now really meant to be an "oh [snip]" heal for the group, then the buffs should either be taken away, or perhaps the other morph can be a far weaker heal that has the buff.

Either way, this does not sound like a great change for healers. I really don't need this heal for a group heal so much as I like it for its ease of applying the buffs. If groups are going to phase out this ability due to difficulty in keeping a high uptime, it just feels like another step towards getting rid of the dedicated healer role.

[edited for profanity bypass]

p00tx

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I'm on console, so I haven't played with the new changes, but if this is true, what really needs to be done IMO is combat prayer buffs need to have an extended duration. I probably over-cast combat prayer just a little bit to maintain a high uptime on the buffs, and if the cost increased, that is what is going to be difficult about cost increase - keeping that high uptime. If it is now really meant to be an "oh [snip]" heal for the group, then the buffs should either be taken away, or perhaps the other morph can be a far weaker heal that has the buff.

Either way, this does not sound like a great change for healers. I really don't need this heal for a group heal so much as I like it for its ease of applying the buffs. If groups are going to phase out this ability due to difficulty in keeping a high uptime, it just feels like another step towards getting rid of the dedicated healer role.

[edited for profanity bypass]

They did extend its duration by two seconds, but it's only helpful if you can get the buff onto the people who need it. I transferred to PC from Xbox, and the first thing I noticed was that CbP doesn't proc the way it ultimately should. The buff is really tough to get onto everyone, so you have to cast it a bunch of times, and even then it's a bit rough. We just adjusted to it on PC by building like we did when we were baby healers and switching all of our jewelry enchants to recovery. It sucks, but it's the best we have right now, since Zos has already patted themselves on the back for a job well done on this one and doesn't seem interested in adjusting it.