Can we talk about update 33 healing and especially cross healing?

SippingPotions

It seems like a bit much to me but I’d really like to hear some other perspectives on it.

VarisVaris

It is too much especially with hybridization allowing people to put even more heals on their bars.

The biggest offenders are:
Radiating regen
Intensive Mender
Living Darkness (for self heals)
The whole magdk toolkit after the changes made throughout the last 4 patches (self healing again)

In a 4 man group you can casually have 12k hps without any effort which can be further increased by spamming burst heals every one has access to now.

The result of this will be that the devs pull out a big fat sledgehammer and nerf heals across the board rather than changing the problems although with hybridization the generated so many issues that they will never get close to even think about getting on top of the issues.

xylena_lazarow

Individual self healing is mostly fine. Group healing continues to be game breaking, not just optimized 12mans, literally any group that deliberately stacks Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor. Groups with zero chance of winning the objective can nonetheless stall forever just running around healing each other. If you can't take the flags, you shouldn't get to hold the objective hostage while 40 guys chase you around the walls or a field outside. It's one-sided fun that leads to all kinds of toxicity, faction stack zerging, pug stomping, players raging at each other...

The main culprits are the aforementioned HoTs that travel with players, Snow Treaders deleting counterplay, and the Maelstrom Resto allowing raid healers to mostly ignore building sustain (mag healers in 5med armor lol). Endless nerfs to damage sets like Hrothgar while healing gets buffed and buffed and buffed... even Coldfire siege feels useless.

SippingPotions

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Individual self healing is mostly fine. Group healing continues to be game breaking, not just optimized 12mans, literally any group that deliberately stacks Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor. Groups with zero chance of winning the objective can nonetheless stall forever just running around healing each other. If you can't take the flags, you shouldn't get to hold the objective hostage while 40 guys chase you around the walls or a field outside. It's one-sided fun that leads to all kinds of toxicity, faction stack zerging, pug stomping, players raging at each other...

The main culprits are the aforementioned HoTs that travel with players, Snow Treaders deleting counterplay, and the Maelstrom Resto allowing raid healers to mostly ignore building sustain (mag healers in 5med armor lol). Endless nerfs to damage sets like Hrothgar while healing gets buffed and buffed and buffed... even Coldfire siege feels useless.

I’m even running a maelstrom resto on a stamblade this patch. I mostly play solo or with 1-2 others but even just having radiating regen on 2 ransoms give me enough mag sustain for pretty much intimate cloaks and I’m now able to spam healthy offering as well. Solo I don’t feel OP or anything, but last night running around with 5-6 other players in front of sej we were just farming people while practically standing in oils and watching cold fire bolts bounce off us. Obviously I’m going to build to be as strong as I can in any patch, but it just feels a bit silly to me right now.

rauyran

Said it before but ZOS really need to make the heals from Radiating Regen (and probably Echoing Vigor) a named buff so it won't stack: Major Regeneration

Dem_kitkats1

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Individual self healing is mostly fine. Group healing continues to be game breaking, not just optimized 12mans, literally any group that deliberately stacks Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor. Groups with zero chance of winning the objective can nonetheless stall forever just running around healing each other. If you can't take the flags, you shouldn't get to hold the objective hostage while 40 guys chase you around the walls or a field outside. It's one-sided fun that leads to all kinds of toxicity, faction stack zerging, pug stomping, players raging at each other...

The main culprits are the aforementioned HoTs that travel with players, Snow Treaders deleting counterplay, and the Maelstrom Resto allowing raid healers to mostly ignore building sustain (mag healers in 5med armor lol). Endless nerfs to damage sets like Hrothgar while healing gets buffed and buffed and buffed... even Coldfire siege feels useless.

Healing was overpowered before, but I agree it's worse now with players being able pull from any combo of burst and h.o.t heals they want. I disagree with self healing being fine. Not when more often than not it takes multiple players to take down 1 target who is surviving off of self heals alone. If it wasnt for so much self healing, that one guy wouldn't be able to take on 20,40 people. It's also no coincidence that the classes with the best self healing tool kits are the ones dominating PvP at the moment. It doesn't make sense for a toon built for damage to have higher healing tool tips than an actual healer build. IMO healing should be separated from damage.

I agree that ability to stack h.o.ts is a problem, but I think it's exacerbated just by the sheer amount of base healing that every toon has. And it definately doesnt help that there is no viable way to counter any of it.

MEBengalsFan2001

Problem with this game is that you have offensive stats and a resource pool which impacts both damage and healing. IMO offensive stats for damage and resource pool impacts healing.

VarisVaris

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Problem with this game is that you have offensive stats and a resource pool which impacts both damage and healing. IMO offensive stats for damage and resource pool impacts healing.

No this is a terrible idea.
That would be yet another horrible attempt to fix something with a sledgehammer that should only be fixed by making direct changes to the outliers.
It would just add so many new issues that the devs can't predict and it would take them years to start fixing the problems that would emerge just by adding it while them attempting to fix it would cause even more issues.

Healing and offense being tied to the same stats has worked for the most part of 8 years of ESO and the only time it became an issue was when it was related to a limited amount of certain skills or when Zos introduced heals that didn't scale with those stats like HP scaling heals or healing procs being too powerful.

DrSlaughtr

They know what they're doing. It's on purpose. Whether we like it or not, this is what we're dealing with. One can only assume that "working as intended" means 12+ spending minutes trying to kill one mistforming DK who can pop out around a corner for 4 seconds, get 5k+ mag tick and heal and buff without flinching.

I don't really get it. All I can do is adapt. These are the same people who complain about NBs using Caluurions and sending angry messages when they get caught slipping. Trust me, I hate using proc sets but when you're stacking hots with all this mitigation with some of the best burst heals in the game, it's the only way to have a chance.

Supershutze

There are some foundational issues with PvP balance.

First problem: Building for durability offers way too much return on investment.

Someone who builds for durability can burst down someone who builds for pure damage, but the reverse is not true. This is a problem, especially given that most PvE builds are based around pure damage, and that's the build most new players have when they first step foot in PvP, essentially guaranteeing a horrible first impression.

Second problem: There is no counterplay for healing, especially self-healing.

If your opponent builds lots of armour, counterplay is high pen, breach, crushing enchants, etc...

If your opponent builds high health, counterplay is DoT's, oblivion damage.

If your opponent builds high mobility, conterplay is snares, immobilizations, stuns.

If your opponent builds high stealth(i.e nightblade), counterplay is magelight, tracker, flare, situational awareness.

If your opponent builds high healing, counterplay is... ? (and don't say defile, it's so weak that it might as well not exist).

Defile *used* to be useful. It was one of the absolute most useful effects in pvp, and it was so useful because it was the *only* counterplay to healing. Then it got nerfed hard.

When you pair problem one with problem two, what you end up with are fights that resemble a bunch of tanks slapping each other with pool noodles. This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Potential solutions?

Change how impen works, so it can at most reduce critical damage by 50% (100% crit damage boost becomes 50%, 150% becomes 75%, etc..) This makes the game more easily approached by PvE players with these builds and makes high damage builds more capable of bursting tank builds. Afraid this means that non-tank builds are gonna get one-shot? This happens anyway.

Give more counterplay to heals. Buff defile back to something useful. Apply a debuff to healing done and healing recieved for 1 second after taking damage. This makes it a lot harder to just heal through incoming damage and forces players to either get their healing from a dedicated healer(yay, teamwork), or disengage from combat to heal.

Necrotech_Master

there are technically 2 ways to combat healing

• defiles (as mentioned, are nerfed so much they arent useful AND they cannot be buffed by cp anymore)
• healing absorption (heavily underused, and underpowered mechanic, there are only about 2 things in the entire game that even apply this (soldier of anguish set, and a morph of the first psijic skill), and the amounts they apply are so low as to be laughable)

the one new set added with U33 should help, the one that creates an aoe that applies -recov based on how many people hit, but the problem i see with it already is the aoe on this i think is only 5 meters, which is basically the size of sellistrix proc, which means it wont be easy enough to hit enough people to apply a massive enough recov debuff to actually break up a ball/zerg

will the -recov still be useful? oh im sure it will, but you would have to hit 10 people to apply -1259 recov, which wont happen easily with a 5 meter aoe on a 1 sec delay, you might be able to hit 3-5 people easy, which is still roughly -300 to -500 recovery on the targets hit

edit: spelling

WordsOfPower

I'm a big believer in promoting the kind of world one would like to see.

That's why I still crowns for 350 per even though most scalpers will ask for 2000.

That's why I sell my Tempering Alloy for 7500, because I think it's a fair price and I don't want to contribute to the price getting even higher.

That's why, even though it may be optimal to slot one, I'm not gonna put a resto staff on my backbar just to take advantage of what a healing ability does with 7k weapon damage.

Same reason I don't run Plaguebreak or Dark Convergence.

Same reason I don't zerg or stand on a flag in a domination game with Malcolm's Cyrodiil Angler build.

Because its wanky to do so, and if none of us were wanky, we'd live in a better world.

xylena_lazarow

For the 9000th time, nerfing individual self healing will NOT solve the unkillable group problem, it will only make things more miserable for solos and pugs. I'll admit that Living Dark and Spirit Mender should be nuked from orbit.

DrSlaughtr

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

For the 9000th time, nerfing individual self healing will NOT solve the unkillable group problem, it will only make things more miserable for solos and pugs. I'll admit that Living Dark and Spirit Mender should be nuked from orbit.

Absolutely self healing is too high. On my NB my vigor toolip is 26k. My rally heal tooltip is 8k. On my templar my honor the dead tooltip is 16k. That's before crit. Before % increases to the heal from passives, sets, and CP. That character has 32k health. I've went from red screen to 100% with one skill on several occasions. And the thing is, that's not even that high.

Every class in this game is capable of that. Some better than others.

xylena_lazarow

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Absolutely self healing is too high... Every class in this game is capable of that. Some better than others.

You're not wrong, way too many 1v1s stall out, but one tanky player doesn't break PvP, they still get zerged down or forced to run very far away. Unkillable groups are a far worse problem from BGs to Cyro, and I'd really like to avoid the sort of blanket nerfs that only exacerbate the problem.

DrSlaughtr

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Absolutely self healing is too high... Every class in this game is capable of that. Some better than others.

You're not wrong, way too many 1v1s stall out, but one tanky player doesn't break PvP, they still get zerged down or forced to run very far away. Unkillable groups are a far worse problem from BGs to Cyro, and I'd really like to avoid the sort of blanket nerfs that only exacerbate the problem.

First, you can address both group heals and self heals in one patch without destroying either. They just seem to not want to do it right now for whatever reason.

Second, one tanky player can absolutely break the game. Here are a few scenarios.

One tank sits on a pin, and cannot be killed, preventing flipping, giving plenty of time for allies to come wipe the enemies.

One tank pops immovables and burns every piece of siege while enemy players fail to kill them, giving plenty of time for allies to arrive and wipe the enemies.

One tank leads 12+ around the inside of a keep for five minutes, preventing them from moving to their next target in a timely fashion.

Here's the hitch to this, though.

That same tank? Can turn around and spank pure DDs left and right, because their s/w damage is still through the roof despite also being spec'd for mitigation and heals. S/W damage jacks up heal tooltips to the point where it's just obscene. A magDK doens't need a pocket healer. They can do everything above AND murder players left and right.

It's the way the game works now, so I don't blame players for taking advantage of this. I blame the current build of the game allowing this absurd playstyle where a character can have ridiculous survivability through mitigation and heals, while also putting out gonzo damage. It wasn't that long ago we had a decent balance between damage and tankiness. Right now it's completely out the window. If you're a properly built DK, Necro or templar, you can eat so much damage, heal through that damage, and also womp womp other classes into the ground.

xylena_lazarow

TheEndBringer wrote: »

One tank leads 12+ around the inside of a keep for five minutes, preventing them from moving to their next target in a timely fashion

Nobody better tell this person what 12 unkillable players all healing each other inside a keep can do...

DrSlaughtr

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

One tank leads 12+ around the inside of a keep for five minutes, preventing them from moving to their next target in a timely fashion

Nobody better tell this person what 12 unkillable players all healing each other inside a keep can do...

I'm well aware. I was addressing the issue that solo heals are also an issue. Both group and solo need adjusting.

xylena_lazarow

It's a disturbing trend when groups don't even try to zerg me down anymore, they just spam heals and rezzes on each other and pray their numbers force flip the flags.

divnyi

Supershutze wrote: »

If your opponent builds high healing, counterplay is... ?

High-DPS builds. This is why DK and Plar got so popular lately.

But it only really work in BG scale. Openworld, you would need way too many people to be in close range for outDPS to happen, and CP doesn't help too.

MEBengalsFan2001

Supershutze wrote: »

There are some foundational issues with PvP balance.

First problem: Building for durability offers way too much return on investment.

Someone who builds for durability can burst down someone who builds for pure damage, but the reverse is not true. This is a problem, especially given that most PvE builds are based around pure damage, and that's the build most new players have when they first step foot in PvP, essentially guaranteeing a horrible first impression.

Second problem: There is no counterplay for healing, especially self-healing.

If your opponent builds lots of armour, counterplay is high pen, breach, crushing enchants, etc...

If your opponent builds high health, counterplay is DoT's, oblivion damage.

If your opponent builds high mobility, conterplay is snares, immobilizations, stuns.

If your opponent builds high stealth(i.e nightblade), counterplay is magelight, tracker, flare, situational awareness.

If your opponent builds high healing, counterplay is... ? (and don't say defile, it's so weak that it might as well not exist).

Defile *used* to be useful. It was one of the absolute most useful effects in pvp, and it was so useful because it was the *only* counterplay to healing. Then it got nerfed hard.

When you pair problem one with problem two, what you end up with are fights that resemble a bunch of tanks slapping each other with pool noodles. This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Potential solutions?

Change how impen works, so it can at most reduce critical damage by 50% (100% crit damage boost becomes 50%, 150% becomes 75%, etc..) This makes the game more easily approached by PvE players with these builds and makes high damage builds more capable of bursting tank builds. Afraid this means that non-tank builds are gonna get one-shot? This happens anyway.

Give more counterplay to heals. Buff defile back to something useful. Apply a debuff to healing done and healing recieved for 1 second after taking damage. This makes it a lot harder to just heal through incoming damage and forces players to either get their healing from a dedicated healer(yay, teamwork), or disengage from combat to heal.

The counter for healing is negate, defile and the set/ability that takes away the first 4K of healing done to a player. Those three things right there makes healing harder. You also have the poison to deplete their magika pool as well.

Healing is bit to strong at the moment.

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Problem with this game is that you have offensive stats and a resource pool which impacts both damage and healing. IMO offensive stats for damage and resource pool impacts healing.

No this is a terrible idea.
That would be yet another horrible attempt to fix something with a sledgehammer that should only be fixed by making direct changes to the outliers.
It would just add so many new issues that the devs can't predict and it would take them years to start fixing the problems that would emerge just by adding it while them attempting to fix it would cause even more issues.

Healing and offense being tied to the same stats has worked for the most part of 8 years of ESO and the only time it became an issue was when it was related to a limited amount of certain skills or when Zos introduced heals that didn't scale with those stats like HP scaling heals or healing procs being too powerful.

Removing weapon and spell damage from the calculation of a heal and only using resources as the means to increase healing is a great change that would make healing harder on players who have low resource pools.

At 40K magika/stamina you hit the tool tip standardize value. Anything above 40K increases your healing out as well as CP, gear sets etc... Anything below 40K and your healing output decreases. This would make healers more important in PVE and improve healing in PVP.

soniku4ikblis

There is absolutely no room on my already cramped sets to run defile or healing absorption.

1v1 healing is not a problem at all. The healing changes are a welcome addition.

Ball Groups and small scale groups are now just more harder to kill than before. It's broken in the fact that these groups can run high heals and have a low player skill threshold that they are able to hold flags or choke points indefinitely.

ZOS just has to fix that. I'd say they just need to add a healing reduction to the amount of people in a group, like a scaling equation that if you have 2-12 party members, the healing scales down from 10-50%. Maybe cutting group heals in half further.

Well, for the moment, the answer is: stop soloing and start grouping and enjoy the stalemates across the map lol.