A Mortal's Question: Why are criminals of Nirn punished in Fargrave?

moleculardrugs

The Grasp and the Stricture do not adhere to the mortal laws of Nirn. However, the powerful Grasp which do not meddle in mortal affairs and the Guards of Fargrave which adhere by the Stricture enforce the pathetic arbitrary rules of mortals?

For example, if this mortal were to purposely expose themselves to a guard in Blackwood for killing Nolus (purposely because this mortal is a cunning master of stealth and has been gifted by the Night Mother with the Blade of Woe to deliver the swift gift of Sithis to those marked by the Black Sacrament), and then this mortal decides to purposely escape to Fargrave, the guards of Fargrave still punish this mortal!?

This mortal has committed no crime against the Stricture or the Daedra in Fargrave and yet the guards decide to punish this mortal!

Even so, this mortal knows of a vampire (related to this mortal) who does not have services granted to them because they are a "monstrous vampire." Even those who follow Lord Hircine are punished in Fargrave for merely existing as Hircine's gifted form.

Please elaborate for today is this mortal's mortal birthday (thank you!)

alberichtano

Same reason why criminals in Aldmeri lands are seen as criminals rather than heros in Daggerfall or Ebonheart territory - there is only one law.

The "real" reason is exactly that though - the system is global. You can steal an apple in Khenarti's Roost and magically everyone around the universe knows about it. It is an odd system to be sure, but I guess ZOS thought that it was too complicated to make it local, or perhaps it would just be too easy to escape to another area where you had no bounty.

moleculardrugs

alberichtano wrote: »

Same reason why criminals in Aldmeri lands are seen as criminals rather than heros in Daggerfall or Ebonheart territory - there is only one law.

The "real" reason is exactly that though - the system is global. You can steal an apple in Khenarti's Roost and magically everyone around the universe knows about it. It is an odd system to be sure, but I guess ZOS thought that it was too complicated to make it local, or perhaps it would just be too easy to escape to another area where you had no bounty.

This is truly evidence of something far more powerful than Daedra or the Divines. Even the Daedra are willing to go against their nature to enforce the rules of Nirn :O

Serious note, I guess it makes for easier programming if you create a single criminal system rather than multiple.

moleculardrugs

alberichtano wrote: »

Same reason why criminals in Aldmeri lands are seen as criminals rather than heros in Daggerfall or Ebonheart territory - there is only one law.

The "real" reason is exactly that though - the system is global. You can steal an apple in Khenarti's Roost and magically everyone around the universe knows about it. It is an odd system to be sure, but I guess ZOS thought that it was too complicated to make it local, or perhaps it would just be too easy to escape to another area where you had no bounty.

I kid you not, I saw a Aldmeri Khajiit in Glenumbra slay a bunch of people at the Daggerfall Covenant rally by the market place. It was epic haha

spartaxoxo

Sometimes our gameplay isn't Canon, this is one such example

moleculardrugs

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sometimes our gameplay isn't Canon, this is one such example

I think someone brought up the gameplay Canon issue too when they brought up they were a member of the DB and also the Psijic Order. I personally think both can exist, since you know (spoilersssss)

the Blackwood main quest you tell everyone you're a member of the Black Hand.

They just basically shrug and go back to fighting Dagon.

spartaxoxo

moleculardrugs wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sometimes our gameplay isn't Canon, this is one such example

I think someone brought up the gameplay Canon issue too when they brought up they were a member of the DB and also the Psijic Order. I personally think both can exist, since you know (spoilersssss)

the Blackwood main quest you tell everyone you're a member of the Black Hand.

They just basically shrug and go back to fighting Dagon.

That's actually a lore discrepancy since it happens in the story quests. But for example stuff like stealing, your dps number, how much hp a character has, the strength of the bosses, and other gameplay conventions aren't necessarily canon unless they are also described in the lore (like the Vestige's ability to use wayshrines is made theoretically canon in a lore book).

ArchangelIsraphel

I'm just here to tell you your post was awesome and a fun read, also very insightful concerning the lore.

Happy birthday!

Snamyap

spartaxoxo wrote: »

(like the Vestige's ability to use wayshrines is made theoretically canon in a lore book).

Does that lore book also explain how people can use the wayshrines before being abducted by the wurmcult?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Snamyap wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

(like the Vestige's ability to use wayshrines is made theoretically canon in a lore book).

Does that lore book also explain how people can use the wayshrines before being abducted by the wurmcult?

Not really. I guess you could make up a backstory wherein you got your soul unmoored prior to the Worm Cult kidnapping.

morrowjen

For the same reason a tiny hold in Skyrim knows that you took a piece of bread in Whiterun even though they don't know the dragon's have returned until you tell them? Seriously, IDK why the criminal justice system is so game wide rather than across zones. I do know that I got an enormous fine for fighting in Reaper's March arena shortly after Necro came out. I don't know if that was ever fixed but when I did that quest as a Necro I came away much poorer.

LostHorizon1933

Santa is hard-core in Nirn. You really do NOT want to be on the naughty list.

Wolf_Eye

I just assume it's the case of daedra looking for a convenient excuse to bully/attack mortals for sport.

Hapexamendios

The guard mindset is universal:

"Stop right there, criminal scum!"

dmnqwk

I think the main reason is because you're wanted for murder, and you pay a small fine.

Let's be honest, while roleplay and immersion are great fun if we try to nitpick a single aspect, we'll completely unravel the game mechanic and you'll suddenly find that any character who commits a crime is simply murdered, causing you to have to re-roll.

I apologise if you meant to post this in the Fiction and Storytelling section.

spartaxoxo

Snamyap wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

(like the Vestige's ability to use wayshrines is made theoretically canon in a lore book).

Does that lore book also explain how people can use the wayshrines before being abducted by the wurmcult?

There's a lore book about the unique properties of our Vestige and why they can do things others cannot.

His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection.

This fits into the idea presented in the wayshrine lorebook

However, in order to learn how to do this, the great Direnni wizard believed a mortal's soul would have to be, temporarily or permanently, "unmoored from the Mundus." I am not at all certain what that phrase means, and if Lord Corvus understood it, none of his written memoirs explain what he meant by it.

Narvuntien

Its game system reasons it is just too hard to implement it, particularly when they are trying to pair back some systems to reduce server load.

Interestingly Coldharbour has no law at all.

Snamyap

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Snamyap wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

(like the Vestige's ability to use wayshrines is made theoretically canon in a lore book).

Does that lore book also explain how people can use the wayshrines before being abducted by the wurmcult?

There's a lore book about the unique properties of our Vestige and why they can do things others cannot.

His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection.

This fits into the idea presented in the wayshrine lorebook

However, in order to learn how to do this, the great Direnni wizard believed a mortal's soul would have to be, temporarily or permanently, "unmoored from the Mundus." I am not at all certain what that phrase means, and if Lord Corvus understood it, none of his written memoirs explain what he meant by it.

Yes, yes, I know the soul shriven theory, but since ZOS saw it fit to no longer make players start in Coldharbour with their soul already gone there are now legions of people with their soul in place using the wayshrines.

moleculardrugs

Snamyap wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Snamyap wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

(like the Vestige's ability to use wayshrines is made theoretically canon in a lore book).

Does that lore book also explain how people can use the wayshrines before being abducted by the wurmcult?

There's a lore book about the unique properties of our Vestige and why they can do things others cannot.

His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection.

This fits into the idea presented in the wayshrine lorebook

However, in order to learn how to do this, the great Direnni wizard believed a mortal's soul would have to be, temporarily or permanently, "unmoored from the Mundus." I am not at all certain what that phrase means, and if Lord Corvus understood it, none of his written memoirs explain what he meant by it.

Yes, yes, I know the soul shriven theory, but since ZOS saw it fit to no longer make players start in Coldharbour with their soul already gone there are now legions of people with their soul in place using the wayshrines.

I started with the Greymoor chapter and when I got kidnapped and sacrificed. I was like, "WHAT IS GOING ON?!?!?!"

spartaxoxo

Snamyap wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Snamyap wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

(like the Vestige's ability to use wayshrines is made theoretically canon in a lore book).

Does that lore book also explain how people can use the wayshrines before being abducted by the wurmcult?

There's a lore book about the unique properties of our Vestige and why they can do things others cannot.

His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.

The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection.

This fits into the idea presented in the wayshrine lorebook

However, in order to learn how to do this, the great Direnni wizard believed a mortal's soul would have to be, temporarily or permanently, "unmoored from the Mundus." I am not at all certain what that phrase means, and if Lord Corvus understood it, none of his written memoirs explain what he meant by it.

Yes, yes, I know the soul shriven theory, but since ZOS saw it fit to no longer make players start in Coldharbour with their soul already gone there are now legions of people with their soul in place using the wayshrines.

Except the new tutorial has you hurtling through the Aurbis and ending up arriving mysteriously through a portal into Direnni Tower. If you take that in conjuctuon with the idea that Nirn can spontaneously create a Paragon, it's possible you already had some unmoored aspect as you were created by Nirn for this purpose. It's intrinsic to your nature. And that's why you were sent to Direnni tower and why a Daedra was sent to stop you there.

Thus this unexplained aspect of Anuic Valence created by the Heart of Nirn is sufficient on it's own to allow the Vestige to do the things they do even before Molag takes their soul. And that by taking your soul he was merely exerting control over you rather than all of your power coming from him. As you should have been forced to reform in his realm and been trapped, but lucky you there are skyshards that help reattune you to Nirn. A temporary measure till you get your soul back.

Snamyap

None of my 12 characters ever went through the Direnni tutorial.

spartaxoxo

Snamyap wrote: »

None of my 12 characters ever went through the Direnni tutorial.

Sure but the speculation that the Heart of Nirn created you as a defender can work with any of the openings, the Direnni tutorial just simply hints more strongly than others that this is likely the case with the Vestige. This all just stated as a theory so you can also just decide that none of it applies to your characters and that would also be valid. But if you're looking for something lore supported, that's a plenty good explanation.

Edit: It's also been a plausible theory since 2014. It doesn't hinge on the Direnni tutorial, that one merely reinforces it.

Bradyfjord

moleculardrugs wrote: »

The Grasp and the Stricture do not adhere to the mortal laws of Nirn. However, the powerful Grasp which do not meddle in mortal affairs and the Guards of Fargrave which adhere by the Stricture enforce the pathetic arbitrary rules of mortals?

For example, if this mortal were to purposely expose themselves to a guard in Blackwood for killing Nolus (purposely because this mortal is a cunning master of stealth and has been gifted by the Night Mother with the Blade of Woe to deliver the swift gift of Sithis to those marked by the Black Sacrament), and then this mortal decides to purposely escape to Fargrave, the guards of Fargrave still punish this mortal!?

This mortal has committed no crime against the Stricture or the Daedra in Fargrave and yet the guards decide to punish this mortal!

Even so, this mortal knows of a vampire (related to this mortal) who does not have services granted to them because they are a "monstrous vampire." Even those who follow Lord Hircine are punished in Fargrave for merely existing as Hircine's gifted form.

Please elaborate for today is this mortal's mortal birthday (thank you!)

This piece of immersion is part of the collateral damage of the many layers of systems as they've been implemented. As ZOS works on the base code, maybe in the future they will be able to address the justice system and other issues.