ZOS, this was what you knew was coming. Prepare for the salt.

RedTalon

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

So basically I still have no reason to go back to Battlegrounds, as DM-ers are wantonly ruining it for everyone else, as I understand the OP. Huh.

Ruining it?

The screenshot in the OP clearly shows that they won the objective, and killed the other teams repeatedly.

So, clearly they were just better at the objective mode and at killing the other teams. That isn't ruining it. That just means the other teams were bad at the game mode.

exactly this, how on earth do people not understand the most effective strategy is to actually PvP?

experienced players know that fighting for kills IS part of the picture with objective based maps, its the same in any other AAAa mmorpg out there. , The issue is some DM only fans struggle with the concept of fighting for kill while also juggling and reacting to other objectives.

You do realize fighting is optional in winning objective games right ?

There is no objective mode where you need to fight in order to win. Which is the whole reason why it should not be in the PVP category

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

before all this nonsense with the queues

We had to hit accept 100 times before we got into a match. I believe this is what began the series of revisions to the queues. That old problem is gone.

Well also matches getting stuck cause not enough would join them or just plain old broken remember the days when you got in and spent 20 mins waiting for teams to fill then when they did the match would hang forever and not start

At-least bgs dont do that anymore so we have come a long way.

M0ntie

Oh! Thanks for reminding me. Now I'll start playing BGs again that they aren't all DM. By all means play everything as DM - and lose when it isn't DM.

I do wish tho that ZoS had listened to feedback and made a DM only queue, and a non-DM random type queue. Then more people would be happy.

gariondavey

M0ntie wrote: »

Oh! Thanks for reminding me. Now I'll start playing BGs again that they aren't all DM. By all means play everything as DM - and lose when it isn't DM.

I do wish tho that ZoS had listened to feedback and made a DM only queue, and a non-DM random type queue. Then more people would be happy.

Hi @M0ntie perhaps you missed the photo in the initial post.

Yeah your suggestion is one of my 3 options in the initial post.

Dem_kitkats1

gariondavey wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Oh! Thanks for reminding me. Now I'll start playing BGs again that they aren't all DM. By all means play everything as DM - and lose when it isn't DM.

I do wish tho that ZoS had listened to feedback and made a DM only queue, and a non-DM random type queue. Then more people would be happy.

Hi @M0ntie perhaps you missed the photo in the initial post.

Yeah your suggestion is one of my 3 options in the initial post.

To be fair the leaderboard showed that green won because 1 person on their team really cared about the objective, 1 person thought about the objective, while the other 2 just farmed.

Also, as other's have mentioned, it's an example of a bad MMR system. If I end the match with a high kill score it's usually not because players were trying to avoid me, it was because they were inexperienced. But from my experience so far players have been great with balancing killing and objective play.

Necrotech_Master

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

before all this nonsense with the queues

We had to hit accept 100 times before we got into a match. I believe this is what began the series of revisions to the queues. That old problem is gone.

im referring to the "lets entirely remove objective modes without giving an option to play them" to the "oh lets have a DM only queue but also allow it to pull from the random queue, heavily skewing the results of that queue" nonsense

if im queueing for "random" i expect it to be 100% random, not 99% DM, 1% other (i dont mind DM being in the random queue, but i want all game modes to have equal chance of popping)

i dont really have any comment on the other numerous problems BGs have (no division between "ranked" and "unranked", map variety, or the population issues where you see the same 2 dozen people in each match (compounded by mmr))

gariondavey

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Oh! Thanks for reminding me. Now I'll start playing BGs again that they aren't all DM. By all means play everything as DM - and lose when it isn't DM.

I do wish tho that ZoS had listened to feedback and made a DM only queue, and a non-DM random type queue. Then more people would be happy.

Hi @M0ntie perhaps you missed the photo in the initial post.

Yeah your suggestion is one of my 3 options in the initial post.

To be fair the leaderboard showed that green won because 1 person on their team really cared about the objective, 1 person thought about the objective, while the other 2 just farmed.

Also, as other's have mentioned, it's an example of a bad MMR system. If I end the match with a high kill score it's usually not because players were trying to avoid me, it was because they were inexperienced. But from my experience so far players have been great with balancing killing and objective play.

My 3 friends were farming on objectives. The 1 random player with them did very little. Also, this was group queue.

Dem_kitkats1

alberichtano wrote: »

My 3 friends were farming on objectives. The 1 random player with them did very little. Also, this was group queue.

Ah well it is very difficult to take points when you're dead.

xDeusEJRx

It's already happening on console before the update even rolled out

RealLoveBVB

Threatening with "we will kill you all" in a PvP area sounds somehow... well, it's new for sure

The current queue option is the best solution we can have now. The BG popularity is extremely low, so this option allows the "fastest" possible queing.

I am happy the cool modes are back and we can play strategic again. No salt from me, just sweet sugar

jaws343

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Threatening with "we will kill you all" in a PvP area sounds somehow... well, it's new for sure

The current queue option is the best solution we can have now. The BG popularity is extremely low, so this option allows the "fastest" possible queing.

I am happy the cool modes are back and we can play strategic again. No salt from me, just sweet sugar

The best option is one that I have been saying since they started messing with the queues last year:

Weight Deathmatch within the queue differently than the other modes.

50% Deathmatch
50% Objective

The two types of gamplay are fundamentally different, and the current queue is heavily in favor of non deathmatch modes, with DM only having a 20% chance to pop up. Make it 50%, and have the queue do two "rolls" for game mode:

First roll: DM or Objective. 50/50 chance for either

Second roll: Only if Objective is the first roll, 25% chance for one of the 4 objective game modes.

This gives players a more equal chance to play DM in the queue compared to objective modes.

lockesty

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

Rugby_hook

How are people getting objective modes? I only queue for random and out of 50+ matches I have gotten one (maybe two) non-dm. ZOS should add another queue for non-dm as well.

I don't hate dm, but I have gotten most of the achievements from it and am trying to earn the achievements from the other modes, but at this rate I doubt it will ever happen since I can't get into a non-dm match. I suppose I might get some when the achievements merge (I'm on PS-NA), but def not all the ones I want.

I don't even care if the queue would be very long. I would happily gather resources for over an hour while in queue if it meant getting to work on achievements I want.

_adhyffbjjjf12

jaws343 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Threatening with "we will kill you all" in a PvP area sounds somehow... well, it's new for sure

The current queue option is the best solution we can have now. The BG popularity is extremely low, so this option allows the "fastest" possible queing.

I am happy the cool modes are back and we can play strategic again. No salt from me, just sweet sugar

The best option is one that I have been saying since they started messing with the queues last year:

Weight Deathmatch within the queue differently than the other modes.

50% Deathmatch
50% Objective

The two types of gamplay are fundamentally different, and the current queue is heavily in favor of non deathmatch modes, with DM only having a 20% chance to pop up. Make it 50%, and have the queue do two "rolls" for game mode:

First roll: DM or Objective. 50/50 chance for either

Second roll: Only if Objective is the first roll, 25% chance for one of the 4 objective game modes.

This gives players a more equal chance to play DM in the queue compared to objective modes.

This works

gariondavey

Rugby_hook wrote: »

How are people getting objective modes? I only queue for random and out of 50+ matches I have gotten one (maybe two) non-dm. ZOS should add another queue for non-dm as well.

I don't hate dm, but I have gotten most of the achievements from it and am trying to earn the achievements from the other modes, but at this rate I doubt it will ever happen since I can't get into a non-dm match. I suppose I might get some when the achievements merge (I'm on PS-NA), but def not all the ones I want.

I don't even care if the queue would be very long. I would happily gather resources for over an hour while in queue if it meant getting to work on achievements I want.

The patch isn't live for you yet. So you still have dm + "random" (dm because zos didn't remove dm from random queue) queue for another week or so

Dem_kitkats1

lockesty wrote: »

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

I want to be clear, ALL players want separate DM and Objective queues. This decision was made because ZOS is afraid of splintering the population between all of the separate queues. It's not because Objective players want to get rid of DM all together. Don't bully players for things they have no control over. Keep in mind also that a lot of these players are new to PvP and we need the population to grow.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

lockesty wrote: »

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

I want to be clear, ALL players want separate DM and Objective queues. This decision was made because ZOS is afraid of splintering the population between all of the separate queues. It's not because Objective players want to get rid of DM all together. Don't bully players for things they have no control over. Keep in mind also that a lot of these players are new to PvP and we need the population to grow.

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

CameraBeardThePirate

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

I agree that this solution would be easy to implement, but I disagree that it's the only solution. At the end of the day, DMers don't like objective modes because they're poorly balanced and actively discourage confrontation between teams. The best solution would be to redesign most of the objective modes.

Urzigurumash

In my opinion the best solution is one mode only: Chaosball, with a 90% snare on the ball, maybe increased DoT, and the Dungeon Finder Role system applied.

I think this mode goes perfectly fine with 3 teams, better than any of the others including Death Match.

It should/could/would be the most competitive mode (in my opinion).

This could also eliminate the solo queue, since with the Dungeon Finder thing random teams should have a chance against pre-mades. One queue, one mode.

Urzigurumash

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I agree that this solution would be easy to implement, but I disagree that it's the only solution. At the end of the day, DMers don't like objective modes because they're poorly balanced and actively discourage confrontation between teams. The best solution would be to redesign most of the objective modes.

Right - except Chaosball. It's more balanced than DM (besides the ball holder scurrying away to some hard to reach place), and encourages confrontation more than DM, since you can't just farm the weakest team.

gariondavey

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

I agree that this solution would be easy to implement, but I disagree that it's the only solution. At the end of the day, DMers don't like objective modes because they're poorly balanced and actively discourage confrontation between teams. The best solution would be to redesign most of the objective modes.

Yup.

Easiest - separate queues. If necessary, objective queue backfills into dm queue after 10 minutes (or whatever)

More work but best solution to bring the 2 types of players together - rework objective modes to fewer objectives or have 2 teams of 6 instead of 3 teams of 4.

I've been saying this for years. It's also in my initial post on this thread.

xDeusEJRx

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

lockesty wrote: »

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

I want to be clear, ALL players want separate DM and Objective queues. This decision was made because ZOS is afraid of splintering the population between all of the separate queues. It's not because Objective players want to get rid of DM all together. Don't bully players for things they have no control over. Keep in mind also that a lot of these players are new to PvP and we need the population to grow.

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

It's not a solved problem, it's clear lots of people left because of TDM preferred queuing and lots of people don't wanna play because of objective preferred queues. I would honestly speculate that the reason the "population is too small" is because of that fact, people are forced to play game modes they don't wanna play. The forced interaction is making people troll games and people leave because of trolls or don't play altogether.

I imagine community could grow if there was an actual effort on ZOS's part to either make proper specific queues or bridge the gap, but it's clear the reason it doesn't grow is because of how people aren't happy with BGs in its current state. A lack of effort resorts in stagnancy.

Necrotech_Master

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

lockesty wrote: »

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

I want to be clear, ALL players want separate DM and Objective queues. This decision was made because ZOS is afraid of splintering the population between all of the separate queues. It's not because Objective players want to get rid of DM all together. Don't bully players for things they have no control over. Keep in mind also that a lot of these players are new to PvP and we need the population to grow.

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

It's not a solved problem, it's clear lots of people left because of TDM preferred queuing and lots of people don't wanna play because of objective preferred queues. I would honestly speculate that the reason the "population is too small" is because of that fact, people are forced to play game modes they don't wanna play. The forced interaction is making people troll games and people leave because of trolls or don't play altogether.

I imagine community could grow if there was an actual effort on ZOS's part to either make proper specific queues or bridge the gap, but it's clear the reason it doesn't grow is because of how people aren't happy with BGs in its current state. A lack of effort resorts in stagnancy.

i would agree with this, the problem is not solved (they just went back to the original problem by reverting the queue)

i definitely stopped playing BG when they removed the random queue for the first test, and still didnt play BG when random really meant 98% DM

not going to lie DM is my least favorite mode, but i dont knock people who enjoy it, i just do not want to play it all the time and prefer random (so the current only random queue works for me, but i do believe there should be a completely separate DM only queue for those who just want to play that mode)

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a few comments, we would like to remind everyone, all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the Community Rules. Flaming is a violation of those guidelines, and is stated as follows:

• Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

Should there be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

_adhyffbjjjf12

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

lockesty wrote: »

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

I want to be clear, ALL players want separate DM and Objective queues. This decision was made because ZOS is afraid of splintering the population between all of the separate queues. It's not because Objective players want to get rid of DM all together. Don't bully players for things they have no control over. Keep in mind also that a lot of these players are new to PvP and we need the population to grow.

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

It's not a solved problem, it's clear lots of people left because of TDM preferred queuing and lots of people don't wanna play because of objective preferred queues. I would honestly speculate that the reason the "population is too small" is because of that fact, people are forced to play game modes they don't wanna play. The forced interaction is making people troll games and people leave because of trolls or don't play altogether.

I imagine community could grow if there was an actual effort on ZOS's part to either make proper specific queues or bridge the gap, but it's clear the reason it doesn't grow is because of how people aren't happy with BGs in its current state. A lack of effort resorts in stagnancy.

sorry, to be clear, its solved in the genre and in many many games but not in ESO yet. The Root cause is low player population so the only solution is ) fix why new players are alienated by the format and 2) a single queue for both with random but not overly skewed towards one game type over another so everyone gets some but not all.

_adhyffbjjjf12

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

lockesty wrote: »

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

I want to be clear, ALL players want separate DM and Objective queues. This decision was made because ZOS is afraid of splintering the population between all of the separate queues. It's not because Objective players want to get rid of DM all together. Don't bully players for things they have no control over. Keep in mind also that a lot of these players are new to PvP and we need the population to grow.

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

It's not a solved problem, it's clear lots of people left because of TDM preferred queuing and lots of people don't wanna play because of objective preferred queues. I would honestly speculate that the reason the "population is too small" is because of that fact, people are forced to play game modes they don't wanna play. The forced interaction is making people troll games and people leave because of trolls or don't play altogether.

I imagine community could grow if there was an actual effort on ZOS's part to either make proper specific queues or bridge the gap, but it's clear the reason it doesn't grow is because of how people aren't happy with BGs in its current state. A lack of effort resorts in stagnancy.

sorry, to be clear, its solved in the genre and in many many games but not in ESO yet. The Root cause is low player population so the only solution is ) fix why new players are alienated by the format or get bored over time and 2) a single queue for both with random but not overly skewed towards one game type over another so everyone gets some but not all.

gariondavey

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

lockesty wrote: »

wait did they seriously remove the dm queue again?
ffs i guess im gonna farm objective players again
this makes me so pissed maybe i should deliberately build to one shot all these people constantly complaining about wanting to remove dm queue jesus christ

I want to be clear, ALL players want separate DM and Objective queues. This decision was made because ZOS is afraid of splintering the population between all of the separate queues. It's not because Objective players want to get rid of DM all together. Don't bully players for things they have no control over. Keep in mind also that a lot of these players are new to PvP and we need the population to grow.

that's the issue in a nutshell, there is not enough population to serve 2 queues, so the only answer is a shared random queue that is actually random but has some form of proportional representation without skewing too far in 1 direction. And again, other games do this very very successfully, its a solved problem and it was not a difficult problem to solve.

It's not a solved problem, it's clear lots of people left because of TDM preferred queuing and lots of people don't wanna play because of objective preferred queues. I would honestly speculate that the reason the "population is too small" is because of that fact, people are forced to play game modes they don't wanna play. The forced interaction is making people troll games and people leave because of trolls or don't play altogether.

I imagine community could grow if there was an actual effort on ZOS's part to either make proper specific queues or bridge the gap, but it's clear the reason it doesn't grow is because of how people aren't happy with BGs in its current state. A lack of effort resorts in stagnancy.

sorry, to be clear, its solved in the genre and in many many games but not in ESO yet. The Root cause is low player population so the only solution is ) fix why new players are alienated by the format or get bored over time and 2) a single queue for both with random but not overly skewed towards one game type over another so everyone gets some but not all.

A significant number of players in both the dm camp and the objective camp don't even queue up when they can't queue for their preferred mode.

The ability to queue for what you want would be the fastest and easiest solution AND would increase the population. I'm in full support of this until the better yet more difficult solution, a rework of objective modes, can be completed.

The7thLettter

DM queue
Objective queue

Only way to make things right. At this moment, Solo BG queue is the most chaotic it’s ever been. You have PvPer’s pvping and objective gamers running in circles avoiding any fights standing on empty flags. This clearly couldn’t have been the idea of the concept you guys had in mind.

BG queues will die in a month. And the ones that say otherwise are the ones that are standing on uncontested flags. Sick PvP arena

bachpain

100% There needs to be an option of what type of BG you are queuing for, as well as, increased incentive for doing daily BGs. Give 10 transmutes like a random normal dungeon for the first of the day and 1 Transmute per after like random dungeons to get people populating them instead of decon fodder.

gariondavey

bachpain wrote: »

100% There needs to be an option of what type of BG you are queuing for, as well as, increased incentive for doing daily BGs. Give 10 transmutes like a random normal dungeon for the first of the day and 1 Transmute per after like random dungeons to get people populating them instead of decon fodder.

Yeah I have no idea why this isn't a thing with the 10 transmutes.