How to deal with the incoming ball group buffs, and also how to become a ball group

doesurmindglow

Ball groups are set to be stronger than ever in the incoming patch! Between an increasing arsenal of sets designed to advantage outnumbered but highly optimized group compositions and massive buffs to already strong cross heals, and despite numerous warnings from ball group organizers like myself that the proposed changes give us many more tools than we actually need, it is clear we are moving forward with a patch that will severely weaken the counterplay against optimized full raids of experienced players. I am not a huge fan of these changes, even though they are likely to benefit me personally and improve the power of the types of groups I usually run with, as I do remember and value the experiences I had as a player in a less optimized group and believe that should still have a place and viability in PVP.

But as I am limited to providing feedback and recognize that this is the incoming reality, I can only offer players a few important suggestions based on a review of the patch notes and testing by endgame PVP groups utilizing the Public Test Server:

• Look to acquire the new sets as soon as possible: Sets like Hew and Sunder, Rallying Cry, Nunatuk, Turning Tide, and Nazaray are likely to be very strong for a ball group composition. All of these sets offer tools that when combined with each other and coordinated between a group of experienced ball group PVPers could offer very powerful additions to the raid. You'll be able to strip the armor of enemies, especially when your group is bombing outnumbered, in conjunction with properly timed abilities and offensive pushes. The result is even some of the tankiest, well-stacked zergs will be demolished like a hot knife through butter.
  
• Consider backbarring restoration staves, even on traditionally stamina DPS. Restoration staff cross-heals are already some of the strongest in the game, and contribute significantly to the "unkillable" configuration of most ball group compositions in open world. Currently, though, there is a limit on stacking these cross-heals that is essentially the maximum number of restoration staff users in your composition, in essence, there is no viable benefit to running restoration staves on non-healers. Next patch, this is set to change. Cross-heals can now be stacked by everyone in your group, meaning it's likely an optimized composition that plans ahead for its sustain will have 12 stacks of both Radiating Regeneration AND 12 stacks of Echoing Vigor, both operating at full strength all of the time.
  
• Avoid running with casual groups or pugs outside of your optimized composition. The effect of a succession of changes is that supporting teammates on your faction that are not part of a strong, organized group with meta builds for health and cross-heals is now more dangerous than ever. It will be impossible to know if players in and around your groups have sufficient builds to be competitive, or are adequately avoiding procs for Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence, Baron Thirsk, Rallying Cry, or Hew and Sunder (are there others? I'm sure there soon will be!) applied by their enemies. To this end, it's probably detrimental to ressurrect allies outside of your group, or to support pushes by groups that aren't similarly optimized. A huge change to the way we think about open world gameplay for sure!
  
• Major vulnerability could see a lot more use in PVP. Right now, this debuff is largely only accessible to Necromancers, and has been the backbone of some very powerful "bomber" builds leveraging the Dark Convergence, Vicious Death, and Plaguebreak sets. Update 33 will introduce access to this debuff on other builds, meaning it might be possible to now apply it to large groups from a support DPS on a Sorcerer or Dragonknight, or even potentially a healer. Groups that know how to block incoming damage will be the most likely to see an advantage from this new debuff, which is very likely to include ball groups where a raid lead actively calls out block to their group over voice comms. Zergs of more casual players will still potentially be able to apply the debuff, but it'll be much less likely and less common than in a composition that is optimized to follow up their blocking with a powerful combination of coordinated abilities while the debuff is active on their targets. The Turning Tide set will proc on six enemies in an AOE, and its potential should not be overlooked either.
  
• Now is the time to organize as a ball group. It's clear the direction of developers is both to increase the potency of cross-heals and the penalties for failing to time your attacks and coordinate your builds with other players on your faction. I'm not a huge fan of this direction personally as I think ball group compositions are already very strong, and that there should be viability for PVP that doesn't require you to always be in a highly optimized group, either as a solo player fighting outnumbered (this still will have viability I think) or as a large group that is more casually-oriented. I realize ball group play is not for everyone, and as a result, I don't think it should have this many potent and specialized advantages over other modes of PVP. But I am not one of the developers and all I can do is provide my feedback to the developers and other players, so I have no power to set the direction here.

Unless and and until that direction changes, I can say is that it will be fairly easy next patch to organize a strong ball group and quickly see outsized results from doing so. If you've considered a ball group setup in the past, or run with a group that enjoys organized PVP but hasn't taken the next step of cataloguing your group's builds and coordinating your composition so as to maximize the availability and uptime of buffs/debuffs, heals, and AOE damage, next patch will probably be a lot more fun if you consider doing so. Organizing a large group is not necessarily easy, but many players of varying skill levels and experience do so with considerable success. Ahead of the patch it's hard to say exactly what will be the most potent combination, but I can offer some tips from the current meta:

1. Build for adequate survivability at base. Currently, anything under about 30-35k HP is generally "VD/PB proc" territory in Cyrodiil. Most ball groups run all tristat glyphs on their armor and further typically sink a dozen or more attribute points into Health as well as their primary offensive stat. It's possible the changes to healing might make it viable to outheal damage going all in on your offensive stat (which will be the source of scaling for ALL heals next patch), but with the incoming buff to Dark Convergence and the added penetration of Hew and Sunder, a strong health pool is likely to remain an important aspect of your defense.
2. Utiltize powerful cross-heals, and keep them up all the time. This remains the core of ball group survivability, and it's set to only get stronger next patch. Potent sources of healing currently locked behind magicka-based healers optimized for sustain will now be viable on stamina and high damage builds as well. While it's likely healers will still be needed to maintain good uptimes of cross-heals, it's going to be worth it to make sure everyone is using at least one and stacking them considerably.
3. Avoid purge wherever possible, especially in group. It's basically been nerfed into the ground with the addition of plaguebreak, and good groups have optimized accordingly by stacking more cross-heals and health as above. This means you can afford to soak at least a couple incoming damage over time effects as you're building to outheal rather than purge them.
4. Coordinate with your group on timing of your abilities, and stacking area of effect damage simultaneously. A major source of power in optimized groups is their ability to prepare a large burst of concurrent damage, timing synergies, ultimates, and Proximity Detonation to all land at the same time in a target area. Most players cannot outheal this burst, lack the experience or guidance to block it, and simply melt in the resulting explosion. The addition of both Plaguebreak and Vicious Death make this combination especially punishing, as both sets proc on a single player's death and then scale with the number of players in their target area. This means that bursting the lowest health (or most already damaged, or least healed) player in a group will quickly result in a brutal cascade of exponentially increasing damage that is provided for free by these highly overpowered proc sets. As a result, both sets are important sources of damage that should be in every ball group composition.
5. Coordinate crowd-control abilities and their targeting. This is another important source of ball group power set to gain even more strength with the incoming patch. Ball groups currently get the most use out of Dark Convergence (aside from maybe small-scale Necromancer bombers) as it allows them to "stack" their enemies adequately so they can then apply the vicious scaling effects of Plaguebreak, VD, and Proximity Detonation. With Hew and Sunder, Rallying Cry, and a freshly buffed Dark Convergence now joining this mix, you can ensure the maximum potency of these sets by coordinating with group about when you (or another group member) is applying a snare so that you're ready to stack area of effect damage on the snared targets. Also, all targets that are snared are placed on cooldown from future snares, so it's very important to ensure you're only snaring when your damage is ready; Dark Convergence for some reason bypasses this universal cooldown, though, so it has the most value as a stacking tool for groups that use it well. The thing to remember is that applying another stun (ie. Chains, Surprise Attack, and the like) will usually, though not always, prevent Dark Convergence or another CC from pulling the same enemy immediately thereafter, reducing the potency of a potential stack and bombing opportunity, so these must be used with care and coordination.
6. Optimize your composition to include all the necessary classes, sets, and abilities. There are several new sets being added to the meta of ideal raid compositions, and what an ideal raid composition is will vary somewhat from group to group and fight to fight. It's important though to plan for damage, buffs and debuffs, and healing all ahead of time and ensure that you're not doubling up too much on abilities that aren't adding value (ie. if you have Major Sorcery/Brutality from a couple sources already, you might see more value by adding a source of Major Courage instead of yet another source of Major Sorcery/Brutality, and the like) and also making sure you have all the most important abilities covered by someone in your group.
7. Pick your fights carefully also. If you're lacking a particular element of your composition, next patch could be especially painful. For example, a group without Dark Convergence running might have a harder time stacking large groups of enemies, but still might have access to less potent snares they can coordinate. Knowing this, you might avoid pushing a very large group but still have success against a smaller one. The most powerful results will still come from full compositions against large numbers of enemies, as this is where the scaling of ball group sets and abilities really kick in.
8. Alternate raid leads to prevent burnout and develop new leaders. Leading a ball group is often very exhausting for a particular raid lead, and it requires a high level of skill, attention to detail, and a degree of just plain luck that can get challenging week after week in PVP. Most good groups try to have a couple different raid leads so that they aren't totally crippled when the actual crown goes down, and so that they're able to adapt if one of their raid leads needs to take a step back or step down. Cultivating and developing new raid leads takes time, so it's important for the group to have patience as they develop their skills and timing. Conversely, it's important for raid leads to recognize their ability to lead effectively is entirely dependent on the strengths and limitations of their group and their composition, so while things can get frustrating, it's critical to continually recognize and reward each member of their group for the contribution they provide, as well as provide out-of-raid coaching on how to better optimize individual performance. Few raid lead will have experience with every single role and class kit in the game, either, so identifying rockstars in one area or another within group that can help develop their fellow players can be highly valuable as well.
9. Coordinate your group's schedules and encourage everyone to prepare for raid ahead of time. This is going to be especially vital with so many penalties to simply being present in a group getting added to the game. Having a group member that is underprepared, underequipped, or underleveled might simply signing up for one proc set bomb or another. It's going to be very important, especially next patch, to ensure everyone is committed to a particular raid time and has the tools they need to attend and reliably contribute, whether this means helping to farm or acquire gear, helping to level out skill lines and abilities, or even just reviewing performance to identify ways to be a better asset to the group.
10. Keep logs and learn how to review them. Logs are fairly ubiquitous in endgame PVE, but have recently come into service as a vital part of PVP raid groups also. It's usually important to have a couple different players tasked with logging, especially in the crash-prone environment of Cyrodiil, and to develop skills in reading logs and identifying important metrics for performance that give your group a competitive edge in PVP. Just like in PVE, there are critical uptimes for heals over time, buffs and debuffs, and cast frequency on abilities that should be identified and explored. Many ball groups have minimum numerical standards for damage and healing per second, though set those with some degree of flexibility to recognize the limitations imposed by game performance.

For now this is the best I can do: offer feedback on what I've learned from playing in a ball group alongside the caution that I don't think shoehorning everyone into a ball group comp by means of sets and scaling factors that make them crazy overpowered is the greatest idea.

Ball groups will always be strong no matter what you do -- that's simply the nature of open world PVP in an MMO in the age of Discord. But adding sets that give them the ability to scale up damage while fighting outnumbered increases the frustration of a more casual or less experienced playerbase. Additionally, it imposes arcane requirements on those venturing into PVP: it's very hard to know, short of a post like this, what exactly these groups are doing that makes them so hard to kill in comparison to a larger group of less optimized players. We're seeing more and more very particular and punishing costs to groups in the game that increase the skill gap between a group that adequate plans for and optimizes its way around those costs and those that do not or cannot (ie. one group knows to prefer cross-heals over purges, while a less knowledgeable or less up-to-date group might not; one group is able to run powerful mythics as a result of their near-universal adoption of ESO+ and various DLCs, while other groups with more casual players cannot).

Anyway, I hope this helps some players access the tools they need to have a rewarding experience in PVP while at the same time providing the development team with a word of caution from an experienced player that the changes to the game with "sets designed to punish grouping in PVP" are not only failing to do so, they're merely increasing the number and the knowledge of tools groups now require, and thus limiting the number of players that will have access to either.

VaranisArano

Good write up.

Also, gotta love being the Cassandra telling ZOS, "Hey, this is going to make my already strong organized raid even stronger...did you really mean to do that?"

doesurmindglow

Yeah I can't entirely tell if it's their intention or not with the series of interlocking changes that have rolled out and are set to continue to roll out on Monday.

Where I'm not convinced, regardless of the intention, is that the impact will be welcome and appreciated by the majority of the playerbase. And I'm concerned how the response of the playerbase to the impact might affect the population and health of PVP longer-term.

It's possible I think that two separate tracks of thinking inform the changes, and that they're being pursued without clear or fully thought-out comprehension of how they'll impact one another: one is the drive toward hybridization that has the effect of overpowering cross-heals in PVP, the other is the desire to add more crazy and powerful sets to PVP that say "hey, we haven't forgotten about you and though we can't give you new content, we can give you THIS." Neither is necessarily bad or problematic on its own, but when taken together I see potential pain points: we have stronger cross-heals and a larger number of offensive PVP tools, meaning that the advantage goes to groups that can efficiently utilize both, which is to say, that have a strong optimization already in the former and the coordination to avoid overlapping too much of the latter, which is almost exclusively a "ball group" as a result.

In either case I cannot stop it, so I have to be content with providing that feedback and doing what little I'm able to prepare the playerbase with the hope that *some* might listen and find value in the preparation.

neferpitou73

How are they buffing ball groups exactly?

The other sets are of limited use and Enervating Aura is going to be an absolute pain in the neck to deal with.

doesurmindglow

They're dramatically increasing the power of cross-heals while adding numerous sets that scale damage with the number of enemies, but are most effective when used in coordination with one another, and when used by a group that is optimized to deal with them against groups that are not.

This includes the buff to Dark Convergence to be sure but consider also how Plaguebreak plays out in real world PVP: it has little real effect on an optimized "ball" group, as they basically just switched to more cross heals and more HP so as to soak up the DOTs just fine without need to purge, and yet, is incredibly potent as a tool used by those groups against their enemies, as the enemies might not be optimized with cross-heals, HP, and other tools that prevent the need to purge or otherwise keep them alive (and death also procs PB).

Next patch, according to the tooltips and my groups' testing, we're set to see more of that plus some new tools besides.

Sluggy

neferpitou73 wrote: »

How are they buffing ball groups exactly?

The other sets are of limited use and Enervating Aura is going to be an absolute pain in the neck to deal with.

Well coordinated groups are already next to invincible this patch. Next patch with the final limits of skill scaling removed it will open up the doors for much larger combinations of high-tooltip skill use. This will increase strength of nearly everyone that takes advantage of it but it is a force multiplier - meaning coordinated groups that build and play around this will become much MUCH stronger than any individual.

neferpitou73

doesurmindglow wrote: »

They're dramatically increasing the power of cross-heals while adding numerous sets that scale damage with the number of enemies, but are most effective when used in coordination with one another, and when used by a group that is optimized to deal with them against groups that are not.

This includes the buff to Dark Convergence to be sure but consider also how Plaguebreak plays out in real world PVP: it has little real effect on an optimized "ball" group, as they basically just switched to more cross heals and more HP so as to soak up the DOTs just fine without need to purge, and yet, is incredibly potent as a tool used by those groups against their enemies, as the enemies might not be optimized with cross-heals, HP, and other tools that prevent the need to purge or otherwise keep them alive (and death also procs PB).

Next patch, according to the tooltips and my groups' testing, we're set to see more of that plus some new tools besides.

Which sets specifically? and what changes to healing? Not trying to be smart I'm genuinely curious because nothing stood out to me.

The only attractive ones to me were Nazaray, Turning tide, Baron Thirsk, Hew and Thunder, Rallying Cry and Enervating Aura.

Out of those I don't think there's any sets I'd take out of my comp to replace for one of these.

I guess I just feel groups are already so powerful there's nothing really left I could ask for I already have several builds I can't fit into our current comp.

doesurmindglow

Sluggy wrote: »

Well coordinated groups are already next to invincible this patch. Next patch with the final limits of skill scaling removed it will open up the doors for much larger combinations of high-tooltip skill use. This will increase strength of nearly everyone that takes advantage of it but it is a force multiplier - meaning coordinated groups that build and play around this will become much MUCH stronger than any individual.

Yes, this is my anticipation also. It's hard to know what the effects will be until we can actually test out the changes with the population and realities of the live server, but I certainly don't see how anything that's on offer will not add strength to coordinated group play, let alone sufficient to "stop" ball groups.

Truth be told, nothing can "stop" ball groups. Lots of people say "just nerf cross-heals" which, I agree, is more likely to have an impact than buffing them as is currently the design on PTS, but just like "just nerf purge" before it, the groups will likely adapt and overcome that also, leading to yet another skill gap that newer and less organized players will have to face.

The smarter approach would probably be set aside the notion of set- or ability-based interventions entirely and instead to develop additional game modes where many different playstyles (battle royale, dueling arenas, GvG queues, a Cyrodiil group finder, to name a few that came up in my Discord in discussing this) are more readily accommodated, but at the very least, I think they should avoid continuing to stack up advantages and tools in ball groups' arsenals beyond the downright radioactive complement they already have on hand.

Unless and until they do, I can only provide my ideas of how players not currently in ball groups can become players in ball groups, as increasingly the only playstyle reliably competitive against ball groups is other ball groups. Which I don't think is healthy or balanced, but here we are.

maxjapank

neferpitou73 wrote: »

How are they buffing ball groups exactly?

Enervating Aura is going to be an absolute pain in the neck to deal with.

I suspect this will be the strongest set out there. I have no idea how big the area is. But I expect everyone will be wondering why their resource regen seems so poor. Should make sets and skills that return a flat amount of resource more valuable if so. I have one set in mind to help counter this. Looking forward to seeing how well it helps.

doesurmindglow

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Which sets specifically? and what changes to healing? Not trying to be smart I'm genuinely curious because nothing stood out to me.

No problem, I'm happy to address this though I thought I'd done so in my original posting.

First off, Dark Convergence is receiving a significant buff that's essentially in the notes as a bug fix. All this patch, the set has not been applying the advertised increasing damage with the number of targets in its area effect. The set remains very popular as a stacking and bombing tool, primarily for its unusually potent CC, but it is currently up to the groups to provide the vast majority of the burst required to get the most use out of it. Next patch, this is less the case, as it will now scale with the number of enemies pulled, and hit much like Plaguebreak or VD does in those cases. Not only will this likely mean a return to the ubiquity of Dark Convergence pulls we saw last patch, ball groups use this set often and in a group that's also got the slots to apply VD, Plaguebreak, Nazaray, and synergies, I'm sure it'll have a dramatic effect.

Hew and Sunder is being introduced, which allows damage dealers to scale their penetration with the number of targets. As Balorgh is already part of every ball group comp, I suspect we'll find this one highly useful as well, providing us the option to forgo Balorgh in favor of something else. This more or less replaces the spot Mechanical Acuity has. Or perhaps even Vicious Death -- I'm able to hit six player targets on PTS fully buffed for 60k Dark Convergence procs between those two sets alone.

Rallying Cry is, to my mind, a little better designed in that it has diminishing returns for a full ball group comp, but smaller groups of bombers might find great use in it. Again, it's something that works for an optimized, coordinated group and against one that isn't optimized or coordinated, which is the balance I'm primarily concerned about.

Nazaray seems an obvious addition if Hew and Sunder can replace Balorgh. Turning Tide gives ball groups without Necro DDs access to one of the most powerful debuffs in the game. Necro DDs tend to be off-meta in ball group compositions as their damage otherwise doesn't look as great in the logs. But adding this the power of this debuff alongside Nazaray to extend it will make the central ball group damage classes as potent as the Necro bombers currently loving DC.

Finally, the changes to hybridization will make traditionally magicka-scaled heals scale from weapon damage. This seems a change more balanced with PVE in mind than PVP, but in PVP it certainly unlocks significant cross-healing potential for ball group comps. Currently, a lot of these comps lean heavy into stamina for their damage, as the access to localized AOE damage is very strong on stamina builds. Stamina builds can also stack weapon damage more easily than magicka builds can stack spell damage, which is the scaling factor for Vicious Death, Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak, the recently buffed Proxy Det, as well as every other proc set in the ball group kit.

The effect of all these changes together is that we'll see more and increasingly powerful cross-heals along with damage that is powerful in a small but optimized composition against a large set of targets, but less useful in a disorganized composition against a small set of targets (which is the ball group, comparatively).

Sluggy

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Truth be told, nothing can "stop" ball groups. Lots of people say "just nerf cross-heals" which, I agree, is more likely to have an impact than buffing them as is currently the design on PTS, but just like "just nerf purge" before it, the groups will likely adapt and overcome that also, leading to yet another skill gap that newer and less organized players will have to face.

The smarter approach would probably be set aside the notion of set- or ability-based interventions entirely and instead to develop additional game modes where many different playstyles (battle royale, dueling arenas, GvG queues, a Cyrodiil group finder, to name a few that came up in my Discord in discussing this) are more readily accommodated, but at the very least, I think they should avoid continuing to stack up advantages and tools in ball groups' arsenals beyond the downright radioactive complement they already have on hand.

Unless and until they do, I can only provide my ideas of how players not currently in ball groups can become players in ball groups, as increasingly the only playstyle reliably competitive against ball groups is other ball groups. Which I don't think is healthy or balanced, but here we are.

There are certainly things that I think could be done to reign in their power to something more reasonable. The big three I've advocated for ages now are:

a) Heal Stacking needs to go (in PvP, I don't care about PvE so do it with Battle Spirit if need be). There should only ever be once instance of a HoT ticking on you and that should be the strongest one that was cast.

b) Let's face it, there comes a point where no one can reasonably be expected to track *everything* that is affecting their character at some point. I think limiting debuffs to something sane like say seven would make the game much more friendly for both casuals and hardcore players alike. And it would mean that an individual at least has a *chance* to react to the effects that a coordinated group might put on them.

c) Reduce/remove group-buff sets available (again, PvP only). I know this would be very unpopular but hear me out: I think the core skill-set of players should revolve around players correctly using their own, well, skills (both in-game skills as well as out-of-game skills like communication and situation reading). Sets that strengthen their ability to do this rather than ones that strengthen everyone else in the group *still* promotes skillful gameplay and team effort at the same time. In fact, I think it does it moreso. It also, once again, gives individuals at least a small chance when they know that a 12-person group isn't stacking all of their mechanically complimentary class skills on top of set effects as well. Also, this isn't to say something simply like 'I hate proc sets'. On the contrary, I've never had a problem with most of them (let's not get into Dark Convergence though, eh. that set can go burn in a fire) and as long as they are enabling the *individual* to perform better, which in a group setting can enable them to help the group out still through coordination than I really don't take issue with it.

I don't want to be misunderstood here. I have nothing against players grouping up, getting in voice, practicing tactics, and generally being coordinated. But all of that alone makes ballgroups a force to reckon with. Having distinct in-game mechanical advantages that no individual or smaller-numbers group could ever possibly have parity with... that's where I take issue.

doesurmindglow

Sluggy wrote: »

There are certainly things that I think could be done to reign in their power to something more reasonable. The big three I've advocated for ages now are:

I like your ideas a lot better than this concept of "the set to end all large groups" currently prevailing as the solution both on live and PTS. I am a little skeptical the heal stacking would be as potent a change as is generally thought, simply because I remember a time when purge was singled out for the same reason, and having implemented changes to make purge less powerful hasn't really had the result that was promised before the change. But I concede fully that heal stacking is incredibly powerful, especially in good groups, and really doesn't make sense at the level it's currently utilized. At the very least, I think limits on it (say, 3 stacks instead of "however many you can cast") seems like a start.

I think b and c might be better still, though I have no idea the technical implementation required to make either work, if it's even possible. I definitely think it's more in line with a solution than this notion we can banish large groups, ball or zerg or anything in between, "to the void" with a single set bonus in a way that won't also be exploited by those groups.

I also think an interesting alternative to c might be to give the sets the Pale Order (and now Rallying Cry) treatment, that is, make them less effective the more they're stacked. This might retain their value in small-scale situations but prevent the silly and overpowered applications we see in larger arrangements.

McTaterskins

I gave up and went to Elden Ring for a bit. I'm still on here and there to play with the GF when she needs a vet dungeon tanked or wants to pvp.

It's likely going to be a couple of patch cycles before it's ok to return for regular play.

VaranisArano

neferpitou73 wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

They're dramatically increasing the power of cross-heals while adding numerous sets that scale damage with the number of enemies, but are most effective when used in coordination with one another, and when used by a group that is optimized to deal with them against groups that are not.

This includes the buff to Dark Convergence to be sure but consider also how Plaguebreak plays out in real world PVP: it has little real effect on an optimized "ball" group, as they basically just switched to more cross heals and more HP so as to soak up the DOTs just fine without need to purge, and yet, is incredibly potent as a tool used by those groups against their enemies, as the enemies might not be optimized with cross-heals, HP, and other tools that prevent the need to purge or otherwise keep them alive (and death also procs PB).

Next patch, according to the tooltips and my groups' testing, we're set to see more of that plus some new tools besides.

Which sets specifically? and what changes to healing? Not trying to be smart I'm genuinely curious because nothing stood out to me.

The only attractive ones to me were Nazaray, Turning tide, Baron Thirsk, Hew and Thunder, Rallying Cry and Enervating Aura.

Out of those I don't think there's any sets I'd take out of my comp to replace for one of these.

I guess I just feel groups are already so powerful there's nothing really left I could ask for I already have several builds I can't fit into our current comp.

I play as a MagDK Healer, and while the hybridization changes won't let me cast any more Vigors than I could before, it means that the Vigors I do cast - such as when my group gets negated in a choke point - will be stronger than ever.

Sluggy

VaranisArano wrote: »

I play as a MagDK Healer, and while the hybridization changes won't let me cast any more Vigors than I could before, it means that the Vigors I do cast - such as when my group gets negated in a choke point - will be stronger than ever.

Funnily enough I've had a hybrid 2hand/resto healer DK since 2019. And it's grown in power with almost every patch over the last year and a half. This next patch will probably make it one of the best group healers in Cyrodiil with insane damage, healing, tankiness, AND sustain. But alas, I haven't bothered to play since the start of this last patch and nothing in the next has gotten me thinking it will be worth returning yet...

EDIT: Just a heads up: if you go with charged traits and flame + poison enchants, along with a maelstrom resto staff and some double-dot poisons you can easily sustain mag and stam with a little as 700 regen for each. Maybe try heartland conqueror's too if you are still having trouble.

bachpain

Sadly Zos is just taking the already difficult world to break into and making it even less new player friendly. The gap will be almost insurmountable and only sweaty ball groups of people who sit in discord together with whiteboard strats for every keep are roaming Cyrodiil. It will be like Battlegrounds where the cross healing is so high people rarely die and without the objective play it is a virtual stalemate.

I have never seen a patch feel so broken for PVP. I can't believe that we haven't seen more outcry from the streamers and community at large as to what is coming. I know Zos isn't developing the game for PVP, but it shouldn't feel like they are trying to develop PVP away.

xylena_lazarow

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Ball groups are set to be stronger than ever in the incoming patch!

You can say this about every patch since launch, yet players are still gonna solo and pug...

DrSlaughtr

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

xFocused

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

Facts. There's a few ball groups on PS4 NA that do this. One in particular has left GH entirely and went to BR where there is little to no resistance and they can farm players for hours, lol

DrSlaughtr

xFocused wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

Facts. There's a few ball groups on PS4 NA that do this. One in particular has left GH entirely and went to BR where there is little to no resistance and they can farm players for hours, lol

There are ball group guilds on XB that always change to the same alliance to avoid fighting one another. They'd rather just run down pugs all night.

xFocused

TheEndBringer wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

Facts. There's a few ball groups on PS4 NA that do this. One in particular has left GH entirely and went to BR where there is little to no resistance and they can farm players for hours, lol

There are ball group guilds on XB that always change to the same alliance to avoid fighting one another. They'd rather just run down pugs all night.

Which is so strange to me because how does that not get boring after a while?

Breakwell

They don’t like to be called ball groups anymore, they’re known as “ball teams” or “egg group”

Wolfpaw

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

On PS NA we have some good ball groups on yellow. Win or lose I always enjoy going up against.

Red (especially this campaign) is just a server zerg. Yellow has multiple ball groups that make a mini zerg at times. So basically us blue (10-15player ballcomp) are fighting zergs most of the time, w/o a choice.

I hope ZOS keeps pushing ballcomp play like they have been, small (12+/-) and organized. Zergs (&/or "solo" players) running around 30-60+ deep is what kills performance.

DrSlaughtr

xFocused wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

Facts. There's a few ball groups on PS4 NA that do this. One in particular has left GH entirely and went to BR where there is little to no resistance and they can farm players for hours, lol

There are ball group guilds on XB that always change to the same alliance to avoid fighting one another. They'd rather just run down pugs all night.

Which is so strange to me because how does that not get boring after a while?

Same reason why people build mist tanks just to drag 20 people around a keep after the battle is already decided. That's what they find fun. A 12 man group stacking hots, out healing massive damage from overwhelming odds for as long as possible. There are a few ball groups that actually seek open combat but most would rather ulti bomb in towers or around rocks. Their goal isn't to play the map and help their faction. Often what they do actually hurts the efforts of their alliance. For example, picking up one of their home scrolls and farming it until it respawns right back at the enemy keep rather than taking it home.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

On PS NA we have some good ball groups on yellow. Win or lose I always enjoy going up against.

Red (especially this campaign) is just a server zerg. Yellow has multiple ball groups that make a mini zerg at times. So basically us blue (10-15player ballcomp) are fighting zergs most of the time, w/o a choice.

I hope ZOS keeps pushing ballcomp play like they have been, small (12+/-) and organized. Zergs (&/or "solo" players) running around 30-60+ deep is what kills performance.

My issue with this is it's inherently imbalanced. A special forces team might be able to storm a tactical position and take out targets but if you forced them to meet an army 6 times their size in open battle they'd die.

That logic doesn't hold in ESO because we keep getting sets and healing mechanics that overwhelming benefit a narrow playstyle that most people find unfulfilling.

Don't get me wrong. A 12 man ball group should have a large advantage over a 12 man pug group. Or even 15 or 20. But when I see multiple coordinated attacks on a ball group, from direct assaults by players to siege, fail over and over, it makes me question the reasoning.

Wolfpaw

TheEndBringer wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

Facts. There's a few ball groups on PS4 NA that do this. One in particular has left GH entirely and went to BR where there is little to no resistance and they can farm players for hours, lol

There are ball group guilds on XB that always change to the same alliance to avoid fighting one another. They'd rather just run down pugs all night.

Which is so strange to me because how does that not get boring after a while?

Same reason why people build mist tanks just to drag 20 people around a keep after the battle is already decided. That's what they find fun. A 12 man group stacking hots, out healing massive damage from overwhelming odds for as long as possible. There are a few ball groups that actually seek open combat but most would rather ulti bomb in towers or around rocks. Their goal isn't to play the map and help their faction. Often what they do actually hurts the efforts of their alliance. For example, picking up one of their home scrolls and farming it until it respawns right back at the enemy keep rather than taking it home.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

[snip]

They don't need to be nuked but they do need to be reigned in. All I ever hear is that ball groups want competitive fights but they spend most of their time cheesing through overwhelming odds and running around keeps for an hour for the lulz.

[Edit for politics.]

On PS NA we have some good ball groups on yellow. Win or lose I always enjoy going up against.

Red (especially this campaign) is just a server zerg. Yellow has multiple ball groups that make a mini zerg at times. So basically us blue (10-15player ballcomp) are fighting zergs most of the time, w/o a choice.

I hope ZOS keeps pushing ballcomp play like they have been, small (12+/-) and organized. Zergs (&/or "solo" players) running around 30-60+ deep is what kills performance.

My issue with this is it's inherently imbalanced. A special forces team might be able to storm a tactical position and take out targets but if you forced them to meet an army 6 times their size in open battle they'd die.

That logic doesn't hold in ESO because we keep getting sets and healing mechanics that overwhelming benefit a narrow playstyle that most people find unfulfilling.

Don't get me wrong. A 12 man ball group should have a large advantage over a 12 man pug group. Or even 15 or 20. But when I see multiple coordinated attacks on a ball group, from direct assaults by players to siege, fail over and over, it makes me question the reasoning.

Siege fails because the ball group shouldn't stay in one place. Siege & a large zerg usually can flush a group away from keep or to their deaths.

I never see a stalemate BvB, either a greenbar with 22k health will vd/pb/cleanse proc a group, server joins a ball group to overwhelmingly out number, one ball screws up, or out skilled/organized.

Only speaking pre update, I'm on console so I haven't seen this update live yet.

auz

bachpain wrote: »

.

I have never seen a patch feel so broken for PVP. I can't believe that we haven't seen more outcry from the streamers and community at large as to what is coming. I know Zos isn't developing the game for PVP, but it shouldn't feel like they are trying to develop PVP away.

They did outcry and question and beg. Zos didn't listen. They went to elden ring.

xylena_lazarow

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I hope ZOS keeps pushing ballcomp play like they have been, small (12+/-) and organized. Zergs (&/or "solo" players) running around 30-60+ deep is what kills performance.

They've been pushing this playstyle hard for years. The "ball" strat is massively more powerful than anything else you can do in PvP, yet the majority of players still solo or pug. Why do you think that is?

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Siege fails because the ball group shouldn't stay in one place.

You need to stay in one place long enough to win an objective. Many of these groups instead choose to completely ignore objectives so they can roll around stalling indefinitely, which is where a lot of the toxicity comes from.

VaranisArano

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I hope ZOS keeps pushing ballcomp play like they have been, small (12+/-) and organized. Zergs (&/or "solo" players) running around 30-60+ deep is what kills performance.

They've been pushing this playstyle hard for years. The "ball" strat is massively more powerful than anything else you can do in PvP, yet the majority of players still solo or pug. Why do you think that is?

Most players don't ball group because they can't or don't want to.

ZOS keeps making support sets that benefit group players who can stay within 8 to 12 meters of each other. Basically, if the whole group can run full-tilt within the footprint of a Healing Springs cast, they'll be good at using those sets.

Frankly, that eliminates every PUG I've ever run with. I mean, we're talking me trying to heal players who've scattered across the whole width of the outer wall of a keep setting, to say nothing of the two skirmishing on the side, and the one who's late riding in from the lumber mill. I usually just heal the Crown and whoever nearby.

I like ball group play, and I even enjoy PUGing as a healer. But it takes a cohesive, organized group in voice comms to even attempt most of the ball group tactics or use their sets in a synergistic fashion like they do.

Most players don't have a cohesive, organized group, or don't want to be in one.

mocap

"doesurmindglow wrote: »

"How to deal with the incoming ball group buffs

go non cp campaign? Nice perfomance, no dark convergence BS, no bombers, wet noodle gankers, no Volendrung and other *cool stuff awaits ya.

* 1-2 bar population during prime time included. Sorry

Wolfpaw

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I hope ZOS keeps pushing ballcomp play like they have been, small (12+/-) and organized. Zergs (&/or "solo" players) running around 30-60+ deep is what kills performance.

They've been pushing this playstyle hard for years. The "ball" strat is massively more powerful than anything else you can do in PvP, yet the majority of players still solo or pug. Why do you think that is?

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Siege fails because the ball group shouldn't stay in one place.

You need to stay in one place long enough to win an objective. Many of these groups instead choose to completely ignore objectives so they can roll around stalling indefinitely, which is where a lot of the toxicity comes from.

Cyrodiil has zergs, ball, 1vX, AP farmers, solo, PvE only players, achievement hunters, & zone chatters..no right or wrong.

I personally could care less about PvE door, AP, or Emp. Organized group play w/friends is fun, and if that turns large groups of players into popcorn,..frosting on the cake.

I definitely encourage more players to ball, build their own groups, good sportsmanship, learn, adapt, & have fun.

If not your thing ZOS does give the PvP options of no proc, bg's, & dueling.

doesurmindglow

Yeah my issue is that these patches never actually eliminate either ball groups, or pugs, or solo players; these are all dynamics and playstyles that can (and should) have inherent advantages to different players.

What the changes do typically accomplish is make fighting ball groups increasingly frustrating for everyone else. I don't think that's a healthy game balance long-term and have implored ZOS to, at the very least, not add more buffs to the ball group playstyle, which is usually met with either denial that's what they're doing, or deaf ears.

I've long given up on the idea ball group power can be reined in. I've all but resigned the cause of at least preventing them from getting further buffs. What I'm left with is advice and insight to players that might be interested in becoming competitive with a highly overtuned balance decision.