Molten whip needs this change…

Danse_Mayhem

Once you have full stacks for molten whip, after casting the 3 abilities, you use it like normal… But if you miss, you don’t lose the stacks. Why??

No other class works this way. DKs have been way overtuned with the buffs recently and are just everywhereeee right now, but this is the icing on the cake.

DKs that get a stack of 3 for whips can just keep spamming it whilst you dodge roll and keep their 3 stacks until they hit you.

Can you imagine if crystal crag worked this way? Or assassins will for nightblades? Like they could just keep shooting them at dodge rollers without losing the proc until it hit? Bearing in mind molten whip can match the tooltips on these nowadays…

Not asking for a huge nerf on DKs, just to bring this one skill in line. It honestly feels like an oversight if anything

Vevvev

O-k..... then you'll have to put the delay back on Flame Lash, because we're going to use that one next.

How about instead asking for the stacks and procs on those other abilities to not get consumed if you miss instead of begging for someone else's playstyle to be made less fun? Bring everyone up to our standards, not the other way around.

Edit: And Crystal Frags doesn't require 3 whole expensive ability casts to get it's proc, and Grim Focus's stacks are based off light and heavy attacks. Crystal Frags can get it's free cast instantly without any kind of build up if you roll the dice well enough.

Urzigurumash

Vevvev wrote: »

Bring everyone up to our standards, not the other way around

Allow me to chime in with another Sorc-ism: Whip can be blocked and dodged. Only bad players die to DKs.

Danse_Mayhem

Yeah I literally addressed that. Allowing other classes to be brought up to par would allow spectral bow and crystal frags to be constantly fired until they hit, which would be an instant RIP for anything stamina in pvp overnight.

It’s not a massive nerf, it’s pulling DKs in line with everything else. Atm there is no drawback or counter to whip. DKs already have a huge amount of undodgable skills, and this just adds to that with the way they can keep spamming until it hits with no drawback or careful timing as to when to use it.

Urzigurumash

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

they can keep spamming until it hits with no drawback or careful timing as to when to use it.

Not if we're Stam

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Can you imagine if crystal crag worked this way? Or assassins will for nightblades? Like they could just keep shooting them at dodge rollers without losing the proc until it hit? Bearing in mind molten whip can match the tooltips on these nowadays…

Both of these skills are ranged. If the proc conditions and the damage among these 3 skills are comparable, this thing you describe would appear to not be an oversight whatsoever.

Danse_Mayhem

Ok then what about incap and ults? They require a build up and are lost if the opponent dodges? I get that people wanna defend their precious DKs now they are finally OP but molten whip keeping its stacks after being missed is a terrible idea.

Urzigurumash

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Ok then what about incap and ults? They require a build up and are lost if the opponent dodges? I get that people wanna defend their precious DKs now they are finally OP but molten whip keeping its stacks after being missed is a terrible idea.

That's different because it's a debuff on the target, not a buff on the caster, right? So perhaps computationally it's difficult to have this debuff apply without a successful hit.

Let's ignore all Mag specs for a moment. Do you think there is decent balance among the 6 Stam Classes?

Your post is an astute observation and an interesting point. However, perhaps this is something that helps balance StamDK with the other Stam classes? If a StamDK's whip misses, we may have to wait before we can cast another.

There are a number of things in the class kits that MagDK, MagPlar, and MagCro can use more effectively than their Stam counterparts. There are also a number of non-class things which provide for the current Mag meta among these 3 classes, but they may help MagDen and MagBlade in a way that they should avoid adjustment for now.

About that Incap debuff, I'd have to test but I suspect this is comparable to Berserker Rage: probably without a successful hit the caster still gets the Immovable buff, but not the Resistance Buff, since it computes from the Target's Resistances. This Ult also has a cast time and is dodged quite easily.

Believe it or not, I don't think long time mains of a class want our class to be outrageously OP. For years some of us were the best DKs on our servers - because there were only a few of us still playing the class. It's in our collective interest to accurately isolate what makes a certain spec OP.

Vevvev

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Believe it or not, I don't think long time mains of a class want our class to be outrageously OP. For years some of us were the best DKs on our servers - because there were only a few of us still playing the class. It's in our collective interest to accurately isolate what makes a certain spec OP.

Being OP means getting nerfed, and I don't wanna get nerfed lol.
Molten Whip still costs magicka to cast even if we miss, and our mag spec, at least this patch (Not sure about next patch as it's going to be the wild west), lacks an execute ability. Since magDKs lack an execute we need abilities like Molten Whip and Leap in order to put us on par with other specs in PvP.

And Urzigurumash has a good point about the stamina version of DK. They don't have the magicka to keep casting that ability like it's free, especially since their class heals, stun, and buffs all cost magicka.

Urzigurumash

Vevvev wrote: »

Being OP means getting nerfed, and I don't wanna get nerfed lol.

Right, I guess if we could try to describe an ideal, it's that the "average competitive player" is faced with a tough choice as to which class to play in PvP.

I've made this case before - I think the most stable way to balance mDK in particular is to remove the extra Flame Damage Taken from Vampirism. Vampirism might need adjustments more than or see adjustments sooner than mDK.

While I'm on that subject - remove the Fighter's Guild Damage Taken too, since I mentioned Berserker Rage. What's the ratio of Dawnbreakers cast to Berserker Strike in PvP history, 1 million to 1, probably?

Danse_Mayhem

Then give them a stamina morph that scales and costs with stamina, and has a unique effect… I think that would be an excellent change that literally everyone has asked for since release.
Having a skill that takes stacks to build, and isn’t lost on a missed attack is bad. Nothing else works that way and it shouldn’t be a thing

the1andonlyskwex

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I've made this case before - I think the most stable way to balance mDK in particular is to remove the extra Flame Damage Taken from Vampirism. Vampirism might need adjustments more than or see adjustments sooner than mDK.

By that logic, wouldn't an alternative way to balance DK be to nerf Vampirism's Undeath passive so there aren't any more vampires for DKs to beat on?

That said, fire damage in general probably needs a nerf. It's obviously the most powerful damage type in PvE (because of various group buffs), and it has a special advantage against Vampires in PvP (without any other damage types having similar advantages).

Thinking out loud, it seems like a reasonable solution for PvP would be for Vampires to be weak to most/all damage types (instead of just fire) before Undeath starts to kick in.

Alchimiste1

Vevvev wrote: »

O-k..... then you'll have to put the delay back on Flame Lash, because we're going to use that one next.

How about instead asking for the stacks and procs on those other abilities to not get consumed if you miss instead of begging for someone else's playstyle to be made less fun? Bring everyone up to our standards, not the other way around.

Edit: And Crystal Frags doesn't require 3 whole expensive ability casts to get it's proc, and Grim Focus's stacks are based off light and heavy attacks. Crystal Frags can get it's free cast instantly without any kind of build up if you roll the dice well enough.

what 3 whole expensive abilities ? flames of oblivion is a huge part of magdks dps and its dirt cheap.

Elendir2am

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

. Atm there is no drawback or counter to whip. DKs already have a huge amount of undodgable skills, and this just adds to that with the way they can keep spamming until it hits with no drawback or careful timing as to when to use it.

This isn't true. Molten whip being melee skills is significant draw back. DK has also limited time to use buff, so no infinite spaming.

All three skills has advantages and drawbacks, which need to be played correctly. Your description looks purposely unbalanced.

I use DK only as tank by the way and magsorc as DD, if you wanted accuse me of DK favorism.

Danse_Mayhem

On the contrary, I think you’re reaching to defend DKs.
For the 3rd time, this isn’t a call to nerf the balls off the whole class or to make it unplayable, it’s a call to have molten whip brought in line with other skills.
From a game mechanics point of view, it just doesn’t make sense to keep stacks of something once it’s used, just because it didn’t hit the target. Nothing else works like this. Every other stack based mechanic is spent once used.

I’m not asking to make your precious DKs unusable, but if you look past the enjoyment of finally having a really strong class, you will surely see this mechanic stands out as something that doesn’t really make sense.

Urzigurumash

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

By that logic, wouldn't an alternative way to balance DK be to nerf Vampirism's Undeath passive so there aren't any more vampires for DKs to beat on?

Yes, I agree Undeath should be adjusted, along with other adjustments to Vampire passives to make Vampirism more of a "solo ganker module" rather than a prerequisite for competitive PvP.

But, a nerf to Undeath without other changes to Vampirism is a nerf to everyone right now, and a nerf to the subclass, so I understand if there's arguments against it. Simply removing the Flame and Fighter's Guild Damage Taken is a nerf to nobody and would go a long way to better balance both mDK and Dawnbreaker.

Urzigurumash

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Nothing else works like this. Every other stack based mechanic is spent once used.

As for skills I'm not quite sure, does the 3rd cast of Ruinous Scythe consume the stacks if nobody is hit?

For sure a few of the Heavy Attack stack sets do not consume the stacks if you miss the Heavy Attack - Senchal Defender definitely does not, I don't think Yandir's Might or Vat 2h do either.

Sets are available to all so it's not a perfect comparison, but your initial comparison was only with ranged skills. Let's take a look at every other Melee Stack Skill perhaps? Power Slam with its Resentment stacks is another.

I'd be surprised if anybody is opposed to the idea of some improvements to Merciless Resolve.

TechMaybeHic

Meh. To some degree I agree with how other burst windows can get ruined by a dodge. But I know when I've played DK in Cyrodiil with lag and position desync; there's not all that much spamming whip as the 3 stacks expire. Sometimes before you could do much else like hit your ultimate or CC before the whip to make use of the damage boost and/or make sure either land at all. Really just getting whip to go off sometimes takes longer on its own.

the1andonlyskwex

Urzigurumash wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

By that logic, wouldn't an alternative way to balance DK be to nerf Vampirism's Undeath passive so there aren't any more vampires for DKs to beat on?

Yes, I agree Undeath should be adjusted, along with other adjustments to Vampire passives to make Vampirism more of a "solo ganker module" rather than a prerequisite for competitive PvP.

But, a nerf to Undeath without other changes to Vampirism is a nerf to everyone right now, and a nerf to the subclass, so I understand if there's arguments against it. Simply removing the Flame and Fighter's Guild Damage Taken is a nerf to nobody and would go a long way to better balance both mDK and Dawnbreaker.

Vampirism is already overpowered, or "a prerequisite for competitive PvP" as you put it. Why would ZOS buff it by removing the extra flame and fighters guild damage taken? It seems like a nerf (such as expanding the extra flame damage taken to other damage types) would be a lot more appropriate.

Urzigurumash

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

By that logic, wouldn't an alternative way to balance DK be to nerf Vampirism's Undeath passive so there aren't any more vampires for DKs to beat on?

Yes, I agree Undeath should be adjusted, along with other adjustments to Vampire passives to make Vampirism more of a "solo ganker module" rather than a prerequisite for competitive PvP.

But, a nerf to Undeath without other changes to Vampirism is a nerf to everyone right now, and a nerf to the subclass, so I understand if there's arguments against it. Simply removing the Flame and Fighter's Guild Damage Taken is a nerf to nobody and would go a long way to better balance both mDK and Dawnbreaker.

Vampirism is already overpowered, or "a prerequisite for competitive PvP" as you put it. Why would ZOS buff it by removing the extra flame and fighters guild damage taken? It seems like a nerf (such as expanding the extra flame damage taken to other damage types) would be a lot more appropriate.

Yes, expanding the Damage Taken to other types would accomplish this balancing as well.

Simply removing it however wouldn't be much of a buff since everybody is a Vamp anyhow, what's the difference? All this does right now is contribute to the overpowered state of Flame Damage and Dawnbreaker.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think we still take less damage from Flame and Dawnbreaker as a Vampire than we would as a Mortal - but more than any other element / Ult.

francesinhalover

Not a change that will bother pve players so i dont see an issue