Thoughts on Medium Armor Tanking?

Jusey1

So, the more I shape/reshape my main's build, the more I have been making him an effective tank while wearing medium armor... So, I am curious on how good/bad it is to do this in the eyes of other players? I will share some of my own thoughts and my build's stats that I have (mind you, with a few buffs active but they are buffs that I have active 100% of the time anyways).

As for my thoughts on why I am doing medium armor over heavy armor... Well, it is a solo build mindset so I needed to sacrifice heavy armor in favor of being able to do some damage (my front bar is 2h dps while my back bar is the one you see in the stats above with shield and weapon) but I still wanted to make sure that I am effective for something in group content when I do daily random dungeons, trials, or do a dungeon with other people in general (including in Veteran, though I can solo some dungeons for sure in Veteran even). However, after the armor change in 2021 (or was that 2020?), I kinda am debating on whether or not I just want to run all my tanks in med or not. The penalties they added to heavy armor is rather annoying and medium armor has no penalties while still having passives to make tanking even better. For example, you naturally get 3% reduction to blocking cost for each piece of medium armor which is really good to have for tanking in general, plus more stamina focus stuff to help managing your stamina for blocking and using abilities (which in turn opens up more for your overall toolkit, such as using stamina base heals and shields). Yes, losing out on extra health recovery, extra resistance, etc but that can be applied elsewyr in the build anyways. Actually, I personally don't think health recovery is even needed anyways but that's just me... Plus, you don't get a damage penalty to magical attacks (why is that a thing ZOS?).

Anyways, am I crazy here or what?

Oh, and reference to what sets I am using... I am using The Master's weapons, Bone Pirate, and Grisly Gourmet currently.

Tannus15

yolnah is really good for the group and yourself. not running it seems like bad.

in my opinion for dungeons you cannot really go past yolnah & vateshran sword and shield. i usually go yolnah, vate and vo and swap out vate for master on a boss.

i like bow backbar, sword and shield front and in content i do somewhere between 20k to 26k dps.

HonestFarmer

It wouldn't be bad though you would need to adjust your playstyle towards more roll-dodging instead of blocking

1-3 pieces of medium armor should be fine, but I wouldn't recommend a full medium armor tank build. You'll lose a lot of health, and most importantly, block mitigation.

Jusey1

Tannus15 wrote: »

yolnah is really good for the group and yourself. not running it seems like bad..

I think Yolnah is only good for Veteran Trials. In a 4-group content, I don't think it's good enough overall compare to a 100% up time on two damage buffs I get from Gourmet. That extra 215 damage is nice and all, but it feels very weak compare to 40% more damage on weaving and 10% more critical damage. Yes, the latter is only applied to me and one other player but that is 50% of the group getting a good damage increase in a dungeon environment but that is a different story when there are 12 players in a trial entirely.

As for Vateshran. I did try that out before. It's a good set, don't get me wrong but requires using an ability that is normally just useless, and it has a cooldown. I rather use Silver Leash to pull in enemies. Yes, I have to do it one at a time but there's no cooldown to worry about, and I get FG passives for having it slotted. I think The Master's is better too since you get a heal and armor buff from your taunt that you will always have slotted anyways because you need a taunt, so I rather buff up the main ability that I will have than buff an ability that I normally will never use otherwise and can replace said ability with Silver Shards.

HonestFarmer wrote: »

It wouldn't be bad though you would need to adjust your playstyle towards more roll-dodging instead of blocking

1-3 pieces of medium armor should be fine, but I wouldn't recommend a full medium armor tank build. You'll lose a lot of health, and most importantly, block mitigation.

Health & Armor is already covered. I am missing out on 7% block mitigation though, yes. That is true. Also, I really don't need to roll-dodge that much, though I'll still do it sometimes because why not?

Tannus15

Jusey1 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

yolnah is really good for the group and yourself. not running it seems like bad..

I think Yolnah is only good for Veteran Trials. In a 4-group content, I don't think it's good enough overall compare to a 100% up time on two damage buffs I get from Gourmet. That extra 215 damage is nice and all, but it feels very weak compare to 40% more damage on weaving and 10% more critical damage. Yes, the latter is only applied to me and one other player but that is 50% of the group getting a good damage increase in a dungeon environment but that is a different story when there are 12 players in a trial entirely.

As for Vateshran. I did try that out before. It's a good set, don't get me wrong but requires using an ability that is normally just useless, and it has a cooldown. I rather use Silver Leash to pull in enemies. Yes, I have to do it one at a time but there's no cooldown to worry about, and I get FG passives for having it slotted. I think The Master's is better too since you get a heal and armor buff from your taunt that you will always have slotted anyways because you need a taunt, so I rather buff up the main ability that I will have than buff an ability that I normally will never use otherwise and can replace said ability with Silver Shards.

assuming it's you and 3 dps that's a total of 860 damage. it really comes down to whether you think you're "carrying" the group with your solo tank build or not.

your build gives nothing apart from taunt to the rest of the group and you've gimped yourself as a dps by a lot so it depends on what your intent is. take the difference between vate and master. sure silver leash can get the job done, but if you have a dps running pulsar or a half decent trash build it's significantly faster to just vate them in and watch them disappear.

compared to a dps setup you've got very low damage and no crit so it becomes a question of what your in content damage equates to. i've said my build puts out 20k to 26k but a proper dps build is usually between 40k and 60k depending on the fight etc. I'm also aware that my build is rubbish beyond a certain difficulty. it's super fun, but i know i can't perma block a serious fight with it.

Jusey1

Tannus15 wrote: »

assuming it's you and 3 dps that's a total of 860 damage. it really comes down to whether you think you're "carrying" the group with your solo tank build or not.

I don't think a split up 860 damage buff for a normal comp doesn't do enough. Also, why assume 3 dps? It should 2 dps, tank, and healer. It has nothing to do with carrying, I just think Empower & Major Force for two players in a four player group will do more than a small 215 weapon damage buff all across the board. Now, it is different in a trial due to being way much more player, but not in a small group... I disagree.

Tannus15 wrote: »

your build gives nothing apart from taunt to the rest of the group.

Except I do give multiple different buffs, both aggressive and defensive, to the other players in the group. Just because I am NOT using your specific set doesn't mean I ain't providing stuff to the rest of the group via abilities or other means. Plus, again, one set I am using is providing two decent buffs to myself and one groupmate anyways which as I said before I do think providing a better overall group dps than the 215 weapon damage across the board.

Tannus15 wrote: »

and you've gimped yourself as a dps by a lot

compared to a dps setup you've got very low damage

Yes, my front bar that I use for dps does around 30k max dps (usually around 21k to 24k normally. Depends on a fear factors). I know it isn't a dedicated dps set-up and I know I will not reach a normal dps numbers, I get that but I am not gimping myself as much as you think I am since you have no idea what I am using on my dps bar. I also know that I can easily move a lot of my stamina recovery into my weapon damage and get it up much higher, but I choose not to do so to keep a high stamina sustain instead.

Tannus15

Jusey1 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

assuming it's you and 3 dps that's a total of 860 damage. it really comes down to whether you think you're "carrying" the group with your solo tank build or not.

I don't think a split up 860 damage buff for a normal comp doesn't do enough. Also, why assume 3 dps? It should 2 dps, tank, and healer. It has nothing to do with carrying, I just think Empower & Major Force for two players in a four player group will do more than a small 215 weapon damage buff all across the board. Now, it is different in a trial due to being way much more player, but not in a small group... I disagree.

Tannus15 wrote: »

your build gives nothing apart from taunt to the rest of the group.

Except I do give multiple different buffs, both aggressive and defensive, to the other players in the group. Just because I am NOT using your specific set doesn't mean I ain't providing stuff to the rest of the group via abilities or other means. Plus, again, one set I am using is providing two decent buffs to myself and one groupmate anyways which as I said before I do think providing a better overall group dps than the 215 weapon damage across the board.

Tannus15 wrote: »

and you've gimped yourself as a dps by a lot

compared to a dps setup you've got very low damage

Yes, my front bar that I use for dps does around 30k max dps (usually around 21k to 24k normally. Depends on a fear factors). I know it isn't a dedicated dps set-up and I know I will not reach a normal dps numbers, I get that but I am not gimping myself as much as you think I am since you have no idea what I am using on my dps bar. I also know that I can easily move a lot of my stamina recovery into my weapon damage and get it up much higher, but I choose not to do so to keep a high stamina sustain instead.

you're right, i don't know much about your build or your class and i barely even know what content you're doing with it, so i'm mostly extrapolating from my own experience with dps tank setups where i'm trying to hit resist cap and have > 30k health and still put out a decent amount of damage.

It sounds like we're landing in the same rough area of dps and what I personally found is that this is a great build to smash through a random normal or base game vet dungeon, i really ran into limits when hard hitting bosses could 1 shot me unless i was blocking because a lot of the advantages of a build like that is the high stam regen and damage from light attack weaving.

lets be clear, if you have to spend a lot of the fight blocking your damage drops off a cliff and you're suddenly on a terrible build.

i also found that when i ran with my guild mates instead of a pug the extra damage from my tank was irrelevant since the group dps is more than enough for easy content and for hard content they need me to not die more than give an extra 10% group dps.

so, to reiterate my previous opinion, if you're carrying a low dps group through relatively easy content this is the best kind of tank build. at times i've done > 60% of the dps in a random normal.

if you're doing difficult content or are with a strong group then a serious supporting tank build is probably better.

Jusey1

Tannus15 wrote: »

lets be clear, if you have to spend a lot of the fight blocking

I usually reserve blocking for bosses or specific mobs that can do a lot of damage. With all the buffs active, I do have roughly around 85% damage reduction BEFORE blocking and since I have access to every single skill, I tend to swap stuff out in some cases (For example, swapping out Silver Shards for something else that might be more important for a given boss).

mocap

go full dd with 30k health and heavy attack build. Slot Inner Beast and Elemental Susceptibility.
5 medium + 2 light or full medium with Crasher enchant back bar.

DK > Sorc

Jim_Pipp

Jusey1 wrote: »

As for my thoughts on why I am doing medium armor over heavy armor... Well, it is a solo build mindset so I needed to sacrifice heavy armor in favor of being able to do some damage

How much damage though? with 3076 weapon spell damage and 10% crit your stats aren't half of a normal dps, although your resistances are amazing for medium armor, and maybe a bit in excess of what you need.

I totally believe you can tank in medium armor, and do some damage, but not as effectively as someone who builds for one role specifically. My medium armor tank (1L/5M/1H) taunts using the tormentor set on the front bar with the two-handed charge "stampede" - on the back bar I run powerful assault, that leaves me 4 free gear slots (currently; monster set, mythic, and 1 piece trainee). Apply AoE taunts with stampede, apply AoE major breach with caltrops/noxious breath/etc... drop some dot's and group buffs...

... I am confident taking this build into the random group finder with any class, but some dlc dungeons are challenging. The main use of this build is to get a quick que for the undaunted daily dungeon quest, which lets me be picky about which dungeons I choose to do.

BXR_Lonestar

Jusey1 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

yolnah is really good for the group and yourself. not running it seems like bad..

I think Yolnah is only good for Veteran Trials. In a 4-group content, I don't think it's good enough overall compare to a 100% up time on two damage buffs I get from Gourmet. That extra 215 damage is nice and all, but it feels very weak compare to 40% more damage on weaving and 10% more critical damage. Yes, the latter is only applied to me and one other player but that is 50% of the group getting a good damage increase in a dungeon environment but that is a different story when there are 12 players in a trial entirely.

As for Vateshran. I did try that out before. It's a good set, don't get me wrong but requires using an ability that is normally just useless, and it has a cooldown. I rather use Silver Leash to pull in enemies. Yes, I have to do it one at a time but there's no cooldown to worry about, and I get FG passives for having it slotted. I think The Master's is better too since you get a heal and armor buff from your taunt that you will always have slotted anyways because you need a taunt, so I rather buff up the main ability that I will have than buff an ability that I normally will never use otherwise and can replace said ability with Silver Shards.

HonestFarmer wrote: »

It wouldn't be bad though you would need to adjust your playstyle towards more roll-dodging instead of blocking

1-3 pieces of medium armor should be fine, but I wouldn't recommend a full medium armor tank build. You'll lose a lot of health, and most importantly, block mitigation.

Health & Armor is already covered. I am missing out on 7% block mitigation though, yes. That is true. Also, I really don't need to roll-dodge that much, though I'll still do it sometimes because why not?

Is gourmet better than Powerful Assault for 4 man content? I run Yolo + PA + Encrantis on my DK tank.

WrathOfInnos

I think Medium Armor is fine for survivability in most 4 man content, but the question is whether you are adding more DPS individually than you are subtracting from the others by not providing typical tank buffs/debuffs.

IMO Crimson Oath is the most important tank set, increasing group damage by 7% to 11%. You can wear this one set, and it's effectively like the whole group gaining a Spriggan or Spinner's set 5pc bonus. Although if you want a medium alternative that also deals some damage Alkosh could be a great choice, assuming allies are giving you synergies. You should also use Pierce Armor for the massive 9k armor reduction. Only Templars can get away with using a different taunt because they have PotL for Minor Breach.

Yolnahkriin is nice, and you could wear it on jewelry to keep 5-7 pieces medium. I don't think this one is absolutely necessary though. If you are using Vigor for self healing then Powerful Assault may be better, and is a medium armor set. There's also the option of War Machine as a damage/support set for 4 man content, especially for Necromancers.

Necrotech_Master

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think Medium Armor is fine for survivability in most 4 man content, but the question is whether you are adding more DPS individually than you are subtracting from the others by not providing typical tank buffs/debuffs.

IMO Crimson Oath is the most important tank set, increasing group damage by 7% to 11%. You can wear this one set, and it's effectively like the whole group gaining a Spriggan or Spinner's set 5pc bonus. Although if you want a medium alternative that also deals some damage Alkosh could be a great choice, assuming allies are giving you synergies. You should also use Pierce Armor for the massive 9k armor reduction. Only Templars can get away with using a different taunt because they have PotL for Minor Breach.

Yolnahkriin is nice, and you could wear it on jewelry to keep 5-7 pieces medium. I don't think this one is absolutely necessary though. If you are using Vigor for self healing then Powerful Assault may be better, and is a medium armor set. There's also the option of War Machine as a damage/support set for 4 man content, especially for Necromancers.

funny enough necromancers can also get the most benefit out of alkosh due to having basically a built in self synergy lol

there are a few sets which can also grant self synergies, but the easiest to use would probably be lady thorn monster set

Jusey1

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Is gourmet better than Powerful Assault for 4 man content? I run Yolo + PA + Encrantis on my DK tank.

Honestly, that I am not sure. It depends on your group I guess cause the DPS you are sharing the buffs with has to be a good weaver and doesn't have access to Minor Force. The 315 damage from PA is better than the 215 from Yolny. You yourself also need to be a good weaver if you want to use it effectively as.

Also, you do get bonus sustain from Gourmet, so gotta take that into account. Getting dem sweetrolls that restores magicka, stamina, and health can help surprisingly, especially if you are using both magicka and stamina but only have good recovery in one of them.

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

How much damage though?

I forgot to activate my Netch for that weapon damage increase and am not on my primary damage bar. Usually I have around 4,300+ weapon damage when I am focusing on damage but I could increase that if I really wanted to but would be giving up on Stamina Recovery and some of my armor if I do so. I think I like the balance I have though. The Master's Greatsword does helps a lot with trash mob since it's damage increase is base on number of enemies and I tend to group them all up, soloing or not, to make it easier to melt them.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

You aren't a tank when you are solo, you are all three roles simultaneously. I would never build heavy armor for solo PVE play, because as you said, you need to kill stuff, so medium makes a lot of sense.

I am sure you can "tank" most things in 4 man content just fine in medium armor, and get stats that pass the smell test. But that is not the question in 4 man content by itself. The question is can you build for the necessary survival AND provide buffs to your group. If you are only doing the first part, you are a lousy tank. It is easier to do the second part in Heavy Armor. That said, seen plenty of very effective Alkosh tanks that put out some decent DPS while they are at it.

MudcrabAttack

That’s a fun idea for some content, I used to tank in medium armor when I started playing.

But I figured out that my medium armor DPS character can be a tank for non-dlc 4 player stuff without changing much, while also dealing a lot of damage.

The last time my dps tanked involved a random vet where the 2ND DPS mentioned they badly wanted a light monster helmet at the start. The tank DCed and the healer bailed shortly after. I tanked the rest of the dungeon while doing between 30-50k single target dps, it might have been more if it wasn’t an archer, it’s hard to use lethal arrow when you block. The only change was swapping in reaving blows instead of backstabber. The other DPS still got the speed challenge and the light helmet, so it was kind of cool. That may have been a bit more group dps added than a full tank wearing support gear to buff existing dps, but it’s hard to say since I’ve also seen some 90k trial atronach type dps when a full blown buff support group joins

FluffWit

I'll start running sets that buff the dps when the dps start running sets that buff my tank ✌