DK really need any more buffs?

Patro

Hi! Today i took this screenshoot, my character has 30k spell resistance.
Cyrodiil is now full of DK that move faster than sorcerer and it's really hard counter their damage without a purge.

OBJnoob

I’ve never seen a dk move faster than a sorc. None of that damage in your recap is purgable anyway. And you didn’t get hit with anything hard.

Alchimiste1

no dks don't need any more buffs but zos seems intent on giving them more, same as magplar.
# buff the already strong classes

Patro

OBJnoob wrote: »

I’ve never seen a dk move faster than a sorc. None of that damage in your recap is purgable anyway. And you didn’t get hit with anything hard.

I'm a sorcerer so i know what i'm talking about. My talk refers generically to the dots that the DK applies and anyway Volatile Armor is purgeable.

olsborg

Its insane that they actually give buffs to the ONE class that absolutely need a nerf instead. Molten whip, sustain through charged trait and corrosive armor + all their already strong selfhealing... magdk (and magplar) meta will continue it seems. Its a shame.

Rhaegar75

Patro wrote: »

Hi! Today i took this screenshoot, my character has 30k spell resistance.
Cyrodiil is now full of DK that move faster than sorcerer and it's really hard counter their damage without a purge.

I am sorry but any of us can generate similar screenshots related to ALL classes.

'Character 'A' has ''x' amount of resistance and was killed by [insert class] - please nerf '

Nerf threads are getting a little tedious in my opinion.

Xarc

Patro wrote: »

Hi! Today i took this screenshoot, my character has 30k spell resistance.
Cyrodiil is now full of DK that move faster than sorcerer and it's really hard counter their damage without a purge.

you vampire phase4 or phase5 ?

btw I like the tips under the recap, "use the grouping tool located in the group menu". Ok zenimax

Patro

Xarc wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

Hi! Today i took this screenshoot, my character has 30k spell resistance.
Cyrodiil is now full of DK that move faster than sorcerer and it's really hard counter their damage without a purge.

you vampire phase4 or phase5 ?

btw I like the tips under the recap, "use the grouping tool located in the group menu". Ok zenimax

Vampire stage 3
I take 13% more flame damage but i also have 30% damage mitigation so i took 8.3k of Molten Whip having 17% mitigation.

VarisVaris

I mean is there anyone who unironically says that magdk is balanced?

It needs some proper nerfs along with magplar and magnecro, because right now there is no reason to ever fight either of those specs unless you play one yourself and at that point it'll end in a draw anyway.

Larcomar

VarisVaris wrote: »

I mean is there anyone who unironically says that magdk is balanced?

Yup. For all the whining on the forums, I don't think it's far off. If you actually look at the changes they made to magdk, the vast majority were to adjust it's... sustain. And magdk sustain was horrible before. Because they have - and still have - the most expensive skills in the game.

More generally, while I wouldn't say balance is perfect this patch, it's a lot better than it has been in a long time. I'd actually play a mag toon in pvp now, rather than just automatically defaulting to my stamden, stamcro or maybe stamblade. Is it perfect, ofc not, but is it better than everyone running the same class, spamming d-swing d-swing dawnbreaker execute...? Yeah.

None of that's to say there arn't a few problems. I certainly think templars got over buffed, while wardens got hit unduly hard - it's not just artic, it's introducing a set like plaguebreak when netch auto purges. Stamsorcs arn't doing too badly but feel like they haven't seen much love recently. There's certainly room for adjustment....

More generally, I think an awful lot of what people complain about isn't actually to do with classes at all. Take healing - people often complain about magdk's mysteriously healing to full in gcd; that's not cauterize, that's someone popping rapids and probably a resto ulti. Or tankiness - I think all temps and magdks get there is an 10% extra to block; it's vampire stage 3, sets like daedric, ironblood and probably mist form that are letting people just shrug off damage.

The problem is, people come up against someone with more experience, a better build and probably a better ping than them, they die and they don't like it. So they want to say it was a unfair fight, the other player was OP and they don't get much further than looking at the class.

VarisVaris

Larcomar wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

I mean is there anyone who unironically says that magdk is balanced?

Yup. For all the whining on the forums, I don't think it's far off. If you actually look at the changes they made to magdk, the vast majority were to adjust it's... sustain. And magdk sustain was horrible before. Because they have - and still have - the most expensive skills in the game.

More generally, while I wouldn't say balance is perfect this patch, it's a lot better than it has been in a long time. I'd actually play a mag toon in pvp now, rather than just automatically defaulting to my stamden, stamcro or maybe stamblade. Is it perfect, ofc not, but is it better than everyone running the same class, spamming d-swing d-swing dawnbreaker execute...? Yeah.

None of that's to say there arn't a few problems. I certainly think templars got over buffed, while wardens got hit unduly hard - it's not just artic, it's introducing a set like plaguebreak when netch auto purges. Stamsorcs arn't doing too badly but feel like they haven't seen much love recently. There's certainly room for adjustment....

More generally, I think an awful lot of what people complain about isn't actually to do with classes at all. Take healing - people often complain about magdk's mysteriously healing to full in gcd; that's not cauterize, that's someone popping rapids and probably a resto ulti. Or tankiness - I think all temps and magdks get there is an 10% extra to block; it's vampire stage 3, sets like daedric, ironblood and probably mist form that are letting people just shrug off damage.

The problem is, people come up against someone with more experience, a better build and probably a better ping than them, they die and they don't like it. So they want to say it was a unfair fight, the other player was OP and they don't get much further than looking at the class.

No magdk is flat out op, the sustain buffs were completely overtuned, not only did they get access to a passive that allows for 2k magregen but they've also given them more buffed power lash which costs a mere 1k mag for 7 seconds while also healing for 5-12k on every hit, then they decided that battle roar should work as a full reset button.
Then they further buffed magdk's offenses that were never bad, magdk always had one of the highest damage outputs in the game and still they've decided to give magdk corrosive armor.

Between shattering, coagulation, power lash, embers and radiating regen there is no way a magdk should ever die while they still dish out insane pressure.

I've been playing every single spec in the game for 7 years now and magdk this patch is flat out ridiculous, it was perfectly fine 1 year ago but Zos decided to go full monty and just thrown in a bunch of unnecessary and overtuned buffs.

[snip]

[edited to remove baiting comment]

Larcomar

I don't know about that. But we seem to have debates like this constantly on these forums. It goes back and forth, there's a lot of claim and counter claim, a lot of heat and light, but not much else. From everything I've seen, I think balance is in a better place than it has been for along time and I'd rather they focused on sorting out performance. But bottom line I guess, if someone kills you in pvp, their class/sets/abilities must be "flat out OP" and need to be nerfed. If you kill them, well, it's all down to skill isn't it...

VarisVaris

Larcomar wrote: »

I don't know about that. But we seem to have debates like this constantly on these forums. It goes back and forth, there's a lot of claim and counter claim, a lot of heat and light, but not much else. From everything I've seen, I think balance is in a better place than it has been for along time and I'd rather they focused on sorting out performance. But bottom line I guess, if someone kills you in pvp, their class/sets/abilities must be "flat out OP" and need to be nerfed. If you kill them, well, it's all down to skill isn't it...

There is a general consensus that magdk, magplar and magnecro are broken right now amongst good players.

Feel free to ask any good player on Pc Eu what they think about the current balance and not a single one of them will tell you that those three specs are fine.

MEBengalsFan2001

Larcomar wrote: »

I don't know about that. But we seem to have debates like this constantly on these forums. It goes back and forth, there's a lot of claim and counter claim, a lot of heat and light, but not much else. From everything I've seen, I think balance is in a better place than it has been for along time and I'd rather they focused on sorting out performance. But bottom line I guess, if someone kills you in pvp, their class/sets/abilities must be "flat out OP" and need to be nerfed. If you kill them, well, it's all down to skill isn't it...

Unfortunately this is how many players behave on the forums. X class killed me and I'm a blank and they are a new player therefore that class is OP it needs a nerf.

I understand the player frustration when you get killed, been there and done that. Especially with 1v1 and you think the classes are imbalanced because you feel you should have won. I get that.

I think the bigger issue at hand isn't class balance. It is that player abuse abilities to cause desync and that simply makes it so you are more prone to lose. I hate playing against players that are purposely using abilities that cause desync; two most abused classes that cause desync are DK & Templar. As someone that plays a templar I try to not use any ability that causes others to be desync because it cause unfair advantage in the game and IMO ruins PVP 1v1 combat.

Next issue is around CC, CC Immunity, and CC effect timers and how CC effects interact with other CC effects. For instance a DK can root you which causes you to break free than another player can root/immobilize you which you can break free from again. Someone starts throwing ranged attacks as you such as a fire staff so you dodge roll to avoid the dot damage than you get stunned and without stamina, so now you are locked into place and can't move and died from the amount of damage you take while stunned.

Other games I have played with CC effects typically immunity is 3-5 seconds from all CC effects. It ensure a smoother and cleaner play in PVP and even PVE.


Game needs adjustments with CC mechanics and abilities so they don't desync the game. Fixing these issue may improve the game play in PVP.

Vevvev

Only an 8k Molten Whip? Wow, that DK sucks or went super easy on you.

I'm not buying that they went faster than your Sorc unless they used a gap closer on you or had the Wild Hunt Ring or Swift Jewelry. I seriously doubt by his name he was using Race Against Time, but if he is that could also fall into why he caught up. Sorcs when properly countered with speed are not fast. They have great repositioning but don't actually outrun dedicated speed builds.

MEBengalsFan2001

Vevvev wrote: »

Only an 8k Molten Whip? Wow, that DK sucks or went super easy on you.

I'm not buying that they went faster than your Sorc unless they used a gap closer on you or had the Wild Hunt Ring or Swift Jewelry. I seriously doubt by his name he was using Race Against Time, but if he is that could also fall into why he caught up. Sorcs when properly countered with speed are not fast. They have great repositioning but don't actually outrun dedicated speed builds.

Sorc could be all in light or a mixture of light and heavy.

Other player could be in all medium and a woodelf along with CP and maybe a ring to boost their speed.

sbam66

MagSorc & StamNB we’re on top for a very long time
Necro & Warden we’re on top for very long time
Currently, it’s DK & Plar which are very good.
I’m just waiting for the next new class to be released already

xDeusEJRx

.

sbam66 wrote: »

MagSorc & StamNB we’re on top for a very long time
Necro & Warden we’re on top for very long time
Currently, it’s DK & Plar which are very good.
I’m just waiting for the next new class to be released already

Next patch the top playstyles are gonna be Lag & Healbots

soniku4ikblis

Stam warden bash build will be the next meta!

I am hyped.

WaltherCarraway

that person was on corrosive, corrosive ignores your 30k resistance.

Patro

Magicka DK has been my main character for 4 years. Zos

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

that person was on corrosive, corrosive ignores your 30k resistance.

That person has been doing that damage all the fight.

gariondavey

Patro wrote: »

Magicka DK has been my main character for 4 years. Zos

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

that person was on corrosive, corrosive ignores your 30k resistance.

That person has been doing that damage all the fight.

You can have almost perma uptime on corrosive with major + minor heroism + decisive + nord + bloodspawn

Major from dt, hc to boost decisive, bloodspawn + nord, then minor from pots

You get uhhhhhh a lot of ult

Patro

gariondavey wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

Magicka DK has been my main character for 4 years. Zos

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

that person was on corrosive, corrosive ignores your 30k resistance.

That person has been doing that damage all the fight.

You can have almost perma uptime on corrosive with major + minor heroism + decisive + nord + bloodspawn

Major from dt, hc to boost decisive, bloodspawn + nord, then minor from pots

You get uhhhhhh a lot of ult

Right observation! Probably that bash in my death recap was used for the Drake's Rush set proc.

Danse_Mayhem

Molten whip is another issue.
Have you noticed how you don’t lose the stacks if your opponent dodges it?
Nightblade using spectral bow or sorc using frags will have to get their proc back if it’s dodged, yet a DK can just keep spamming a 3 stack whip on someone who’s rolling and it will eventually just hit with full power.

No other mechanic works like this, it surely has to be an oversight like soul harvest being undodgable a whole back? Either way it’s crazy strong. Dodge roll is usually the go to defence when low hp to avoid an execute, but against a DK you just have a whip waiting for you as soon as you stop roll spamming.

Rhaegar75

Incessant whingeing about DKs but not many look at all the unkillable necros out there.....just saying

VarisVaris

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Incessant whingeing about DKs but not many look at all the unkillable necros out there.....just saying

Everyone should know that the big three with magplar, magdk and magnecro are ridiculously op and should all receive nerfs.

Urzigurumash

VarisVaris wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Incessant whingeing about DKs but not many look at all the unkillable necros out there.....just saying

Everyone should know that the big three with magplar, magdk and magnecro are ridiculously op and should all receive nerfs.

What do you think the consensus is for balance between the 6 Stam classes?

VarisVaris

Urzigurumash wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Incessant whingeing about DKs but not many look at all the unkillable necros out there.....just saying

Everyone should know that the big three with magplar, magdk and magnecro are ridiculously op and should all receive nerfs.

What do you think the consensus is for balance between the 6 Stam classes?

Stamina spec balance isn't as unambiguously as you'd have to talk about the specs in different situations.
For solo Stamnb is the best option but it falls short as soon as you start playing in groups which is when bowsorc, stamplar and stamcro/stamden are the best options.
Stamdk isn't terrible either.

But in the end it doesn't really matter because every time you think about which spec to choose the answer should always be magplar, magdk or magnecro because they are simply overshadowing anything else

Urzigurumash

VarisVaris wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Incessant whingeing about DKs but not many look at all the unkillable necros out there.....just saying

Everyone should know that the big three with magplar, magdk and magnecro are ridiculously op and should all receive nerfs.

What do you think the consensus is for balance between the 6 Stam classes?

Stamina spec balance isn't as unambiguously as you'd have to talk about the specs in different situations.
For solo Stamnb is the best option but it falls short as soon as you start playing in groups which is when bowsorc, stamplar and stamcro/stamden are the best options.
Stamdk isn't terrible either.

But in the end it doesn't really matter because every time you think about which spec to choose the answer should always be magplar, magdk or magnecro because they are simply overshadowing anything else

That sounds right to me. In other words, a smallscale player has a tough decision as to which Stam class to play, which is ideal.

I posit that it matters in that it might clarify exactly what makes a certain spec OP - i.e., why are these 3 Mag classes OP, when their 3 Stam counterparts are not? It can't be Mag universally, since sDen is widely regarded as stronger than mDen, and mNB is only situationally stronger than or as strong as sNB.

Why would Corrosive be blamed for overpowering mDK, when it doesn't overpower sDK, and for an sDK (not using Molten Whip) has only been nerfed in the last 6 years? Or is it simply Corrosive's interaction with Whip which is overpowered? On the other hand - how much more does mDK get out of the recently buffed Combustion than sDK? 4x the resources at least, maybe 10x, maybe even more than that? Perhaps a PC player has the tools to study this particular question.

Is it Blastbones and Colossus which overpower mCro, despite that they don't overpower sCro, or is it Graverobber, Intensive Mender, and Resistant Flesh?

Many of the questions are of course rhetorical in light of the impending hybridization. It's probably not unreasonable to say we should come back to this subject in a few weeks or months.

Silversmith

Magicka is easier to play than Stamina and outperforms it in every class.

Ryuvain

Silversmith wrote: »

Magicka is easier to play than Stamina and outperforms it in every class.

Meanwhile everyone is a 2-hander.