A hard look at NB invisibility and why I believe it requires a cool-down.

PvP_Exploiter

It's still not as broken op as Streak.

wheresbes

Cloak has many counters, the skills you've mentioned are just some of them. Moreover, you may still want to slot one of those skills on your bar anyway because of the passives.

Imo, best use of cloak is for improved speed, proc major resolve and 100% crit. You ain't saving your hide against a competent player with it.

Beardimus wrote: »

If you are getting one banged by NBs something up with your build..

This.

Besides, go play a stamsorc with invisibility pots if you want to gank, they're much better.

rbfrgsp

Nah, it's a massive buff. Either way, it's a stupid suggestion.

francesinhalover

Magelight and hunter need a duration increase.

francesinhalover

Snamyap wrote: »

Sure, let's screw over pve Nightblades for pvp, again...

Cloak is used on pve?

LesserCircle

I don't like the idea. You're supposed to be an assassin that comes, kills and disappears. I'm also in perma stealth as a vampire just crouching. I use cloak when near enemies so if you want that option it's already there with that or sprinting as a stage 4 vampire.

robpr

Just fix the *** inconsistency on reveal skills.
Cloaking ALWAYS succeeds. Reveal may fail. Revealing does not prevent to immediately cloak again if out the range of the reveal skill. Flare has "cast time" with projectile speed that is enough for NB to go out of range. The only true method to reveal is using the pot.

If the clear counterplay is fixed, you can give nb something back by making Cloak last longer.

BronzeCaiman

I think all it needs is a cost increase when you use it repeatedly within a short time frame, maybe within 4 seconds, like how Bolt Escape and roll dodge received nerfs in the same way.

Artim_X

Roll dodge and streak treatment sure with the initial cost adjusted so that it is fair for both mag and stam playstyles. However, cast times and cool downs would be overkill.

fred4

robpr wrote: »

Revealing does not prevent to immediately cloak again if out the range of the reveal skill.

The counterplay is honestly a lot clearer than it used to be. If the nightblade attempts to cloak while you have a reveal skill running, they get the blue light above them and cannot recloak for several seconds. The time was recently extended by one second compared to older patches. As a nightblade I can confirm that that works. This part of what you're saying is incorrect.

Drdeath20

Revealing flare grants you major protection for just slotting it and prevents a nightblade from returning back to stealth after.

This is a fair counter to cloak.

fred4

Actually, never mind. Whatever.

PuddingZebra

The issue i have with cloak is the ease of getting out of situations you shouldn't. Detection skills are clunky at best, cost WAY too much for what they do, and only hard-counter 1 skill from 1 class in the game.

IMHO stealth should only come from a few source: stealth pots, vampire sprint and sneaking.
Why am i forced to run detect pots to reliably counter a rolling stamblade spamming cloak and shade.
Invis Cloak currently is the ONLY skill in the entire game that forces a NON-Core gameplay mechanics on the enemy.

Yeah, streak is strong. Extremely strong. But it doesn't break LoS, it doesn't visually remove you from the field. nor does it provide a 100% mitigation to any attack fired at you.
It also doesn't allow you to position yourself for (another) surprise attack . ( Not the skill, necessarily)
Streak is also "countered" by a core mechanic: movement (sprint, etc). If you are in a slower build struggling to deal with streak, then run a gap closer. Unlike flare, magelight and camo hunter , gapclosers actually do something meaningful when activated against anything but a cloaking nightblade.

Yes. It's not a big issue to deal with Cloak because detect pots exist. But it's extremely frustrating to be forced into running objectively inferior potions Just to counter that one singular skill on that one singular class.

Ryuvain

PuddingZebra wrote: »

The issue i have with cloak is the ease of getting out of situations you shouldn't. Detection skills are clunky at best, cost WAY too much for what they do, and only hard-counter 1 skill from 1 class in the game.

IMHO stealth should only come from a few source: stealth pots, vampire sprint and sneaking.
Why am i forced to run detect pots to reliably counter a rolling stamblade spamming cloak and shade.
Invis Cloak currently is the ONLY skill in the entire game that forces a NON-Core gameplay mechanics on the enemy.

Yeah, streak is strong. Extremely strong. But it doesn't break LoS, it doesn't visually remove you from the field. nor does it provide a 100% mitigation to any attack fired at you.
It also doesn't allow you to position yourself for (another) surprise attack . ( Not the skill, necessarily)
Streak is also "countered" by a core mechanic: movement (sprint, etc). If you are in a slower build struggling to deal with streak, then run a gap closer. Unlike flare, magelight and camo hunter , gapclosers actually do something meaningful when activated against anything but a cloaking nightblade.

Yes. It's not a big issue to deal with Cloak because detect pots exist. But it's extremely frustrating to be forced into running objectively inferior potions Just to counter that one singular skill on that one singular class.

Exactly why I hate fighting cloak. I'm running detection for 1 class and could end up fighting dks, templars, and necros. Wasted slot for a chance you see the right class. Otherwise taking detection off means you get rolled by a nb.

robpr

fred4 wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Revealing does not prevent to immediately cloak again if out the range of the reveal skill.

The counterplay is honestly a lot clearer than it used to be. If the nightblade attempts to cloak while you have a reveal skill running, they get the blue light above them and cannot recloak for several seconds. The time was recently extended by one second compared to older patches. As a nightblade I can confirm that that works. This part of what you're saying is incorrect.

I fought enough NBs in the event to confirm it doesnt work. I reveal them with Camo Hunter and they disappear one-two GCDs later. Maybe its the issue with Expert Hunter, idk.

Necrotech_Master

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

What I don't get is that Flare, Cameo Hunter and Mage Light abilities actually don't work as intended. They all state X amount of time the player can't do XYZ yet NB can go invisible immediately after I hit them with a flare or if I see them with mage light. So how is Invisible as a skill not broken?

Cameo Hunter - "Invoke your expertise in anatomy and enemy behavior to detect stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 4 seconds."

Mage Light - "Summon a mote of magelight, revealing stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 4 seconds."

Flare - Launch a blinding flare, revealing stealthed and invisible enemies in the target area for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies are stunned for 4 seconds, and cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 4 seconds.

Today while using Radiant Glory on a NB he went invisible while I was hitting him. How is that possible? I thought direct attacks like that would not allow the NB to go invisible.

So the skill is broken where you can use it rather earlier than you are allowed to and can go invisible while you are also taking damage from a channeling attack.


I also want to know how some NB can go invisible 10x in a row, use multiple magika based abilities and continue to push when they clearly should be out of magikea, even after using a potion. Running my Arigorian NB with over 40K magika I can't do that even with a potion poppped to sustain my resources.

I have no issues with facing NB even if they can escape and use invisible easily and constantly.

radiant glory is technically a DOT, not direct dmg, which is why you get weird situations where your hitting a NB even while they are invis (only direct dmg will pull them out of stealth)

personally i feel any dmg should pull someone out of stealth/invis regardless if it is direct or dot, but i also understand that would put cloak back into an even nerfed fashion

Olen_Mikko

Detection pot, inner light or evil hunter. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

PvP_Exploiter

One of the most easy skills to counter in the game.

Streak should also be blockable, currently has no counter.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

This would be a pretty massive nerf. While I believe that cloak is the single most powerful tool in open world PVP, it has very clear counters, and enough people run them to keep things balanced. Frankly, if you PVP without detect pots, you are, well, unwise seems the most PC thing I can think of to say.

DrSlaughtr

BlackArgonian wrote: »

I think all it needs is a cost increase when you use it repeatedly within a short time frame, maybe within 4 seconds, like how Bolt Escape and roll dodge received nerfs in the same way.

The only reason a NB uses cloak repeatedly is because it's being broken every second by persuers hitting them with damage. It's a short term attempt to get away that usually won't work if your enemies know what they're doing. Not to mention the fact that a stamblade can hit it 3, maybe 4 times at most IF they are at max mag, which they likely aren't.

Bolt escape is competely different because 2 hits+ can remove your from battle entirely. That's why it has ramping cost. Shadowy doesn't transport me from the battlefield. It doesn't protect me from reveal or direct damage. Both morphs of bolt escape also have significant other effects besides just the escape.

Shadowy gives you a fragile 3 seconds that doesn't even guarantee the crit it's supposed to half the time (see my topic in regards to this.)

I wish shadowy disguise worked as magically as non NBs think it does, but it doesn't. It's very expensive (even more expensive than mist form over 3 seconds). It's buggy. It is easily broken. And the crit doesn't always work.

Speed is what actually helps NBs avoid your attacks, hit you and escape. Shadowy is just the tool to set up burst and avoid less skilled players and guards. Wild hunt and/or Swift is king.

Jusey1

Cloak is fine. Honestly, it didn't even need to be nerfed so much that it has before because it has multiple HARD COUNTERS that completely disables it that >EVERY PLAYER< has access to. Learn to counter it and have that ability ready (or swap to it when you know there's a Nightblade around).

PileggiPileggi

So, with your changes NB would be the only class that is forced to be without Major Resolve for potentially 2 +seconds unless they initiate combat with Suprise Attack/Hidden Blade or use a random shadow skill that they may not have room to slot in their build, on top of invis because that also takes a slot. Every other class can spam their armour skill even out of combat and all classes have access to invis pots on 45 sec CD.

So many skills counter invis even magelight has a morph which makes you totally immune to NB stun.

When focus procs it makes a giant noise and the projecile is slower than a planet so everyone knows exactly when to dodge it, which is great when other class can spam their main damage ability and armour skill.

You have to take into account what NB loses in exchange for spammable invis which is a lot.

SippingPotions

This would raise the ceiling and lower the floor for NBs imo. It would also be a buff for sweaty stamblades and a nerf for all magblades and new NB players PvP wise. I have a 15k mag pool and about 1.2k mag recovery. I also need to keep up mirage, shade, RAT, and then have enough gas in the tank for cloak at the end. Often when getting a kill I also manage to *** of 5-10 other players who I now need to kite and spread out before picking off the next. Between mage light, camo hunter, flare and detects, cloak isn’t close my my main priority on defense. I’m running an orc with 3x swift for speed. I’ve got 3-4 well fitted for rolls. RAT is pretty much getting spammed every 2 secs for snare removal/immunity and finally when I have enough distance I’ll cloak out, usually after a quick shade juke. Ask any EP or AD on PC/NA that have encountered me and they will tell you I’m slippery. But it’s being a speedy RAT spamming rollerblade that makes me hard to catch, not cloak. I think personally I would welcome the change. By the time I hit my cloak to escape my mag pool is often down to fumes. No counter for 2 seconds sounds really nice, but to less skilled NBs this is just going to take away the only training wheels they have and probably have them shelf the class and go level a magplar…

MEBengalsFan2001

fred4 wrote: »

Breton, non-vampire, Atro mundus, 6x or 7x light armor, high sustain food, such as Ghastly Eye Bowl or Hissmir Fisheye Rye, Siphoning Attacks, Magicka potions, flat +90 regen from CP, just over 2K unbuffed mag regen on the stat sheet. That's all it takes. No sustain set nor sustain jewelry. Furthermore Cloak frequently transitions nightblades between in combat and out of combat status. While out of combat,

A recent patch changed what pulled someone out of invisible as DoT were able to pull NB out of stealth. I remember a few of my NB friends stop playing NB because they couldn't stay in stealth and gank anyone that threw a DoT around them. It annoyed them so they quit playing the NB.

Silversmith

Nerf invisibility in general because detection takes a tick to register if it even registers.

MEBengalsFan2001

francesinhalover wrote: »

Magelight and hunter need a duration increase.

They need range to be increased also.

McTaterskins

Sure. Cooldowns on Dark Disguise, Streak, and Ball of Lightning.


As long as cooldowns on heals go in at the same time and radiating regen and extended rituals (or other ground replicated skills) no longer stacks.

malistorr

"NB is just fine, needs buffing if anything."

THIS

Templar and DJ and probably even sorc are so far ahead of NB that it needs to be buffed if anything. Heals suck, cloak is so short that it's almost useless. Damage is lackluster vs. other classes.

lronclaw

Snamyap wrote: »

Sure, let's screw over pve Nightblades for pvp, again...

[snip] Post is about bringing cooldown to stealth but making it last much longer so others will have counterplay against nightblades in pvp AND zos can stop nerfing nightblade for pvp so they can get some decent buffs... [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Faded

No thank you.