How to counter? spin to win

OWLTHEMAD

Yesterday. Played battle grounds in a group of three

Before anybody says as much its our fault queueing together without building for team dynamic. I get that.

That being said, my group encountered a whole team of identical nightblades all running presumeably the same settup.

Their strat. Come out of cloak into whirling blades usually multiples at a time.

They absolutely dominated.

As a nightblade who relies on cloak my self i have no clue how to counter that. Once im hit their is no escape. Usually got about three seconds after that.

They barely used anything else just whirling blades.

How would you counter that? I cant figure it out and the execute scaling was just too punishing when four of them were doing it at a time

joseayalac

Get a source of major evasion.

Vevvev

Block and Major Evasion.

If you try and dodge it you're dead. Same reason I use Engulfing Flames in PvP because of the fact it hits people who are cloaked and dodge rolling.

OWLTHEMAD

Ah, i forgot you cant roll dodge that seems kinda busted if you think about it but i guess you gotta counter infinidodge some way.

Still i do already have major evasion and was blocking. Couldnt beat the execute

One was tough, two was impossible.

Im only just retutning to pvp after having come back from a almost 2 year hiatus about a month ago and it through me off.

The other team was coordinated too but getting mowed down by whirling blades just felt kinda cheap. Once they were on top of you without being able to roll dodge there was just no pressing an offense; a point that is more to the spirit of the question i suppose

Not how to defend against it but how to COUNTER it.

The other team was coordinated as well (at least more so than my own) and they were equally decimated.

Jaimeh

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

As a nightblade who relies on cloak my self i have no clue how to counter that. Once im hit their is no escape. Usually got about three seconds after that.

They barely used anything else just whirling blades.

How would you counter that? I cant figure it out and the execute scaling was just too punishing when four of them were doing it at a time

Use your shade to teleport away, and generally try to stay out of range of it. Also, use major evasion for mitigating aoe damage, and build into extra healing or health regen when your health drops. Having said that it sounds like it was a premade group which is always tough to keep up with if you are PUGing.

Fennwitty

If you're coming back after 2 years, make sure you're building tougher. Damage has gone way up generally.

Drdeath20

Sounds more like your looking for a counter to a pre made group. Build to be a tank.

Brrrofski

To be fair, if you have 3 NBs on you in a BG you're dead no matter what skill they use. Sure, you might dodge a skill, but they'll hit you with the next one.

Major evasion and block cast a heal is your best bet.

Sun7dance

It's really hard to counter.
There was a time you could still dodge the damage glyphs, while your opponent do his spin to win and so you could dodge steeltornado every few seconds too.

Today you can only block and slot major evasion and that is no solution, sorry!
It simply cannot be the case that a 360° direct aoe spam attack does as much damage to single targets as to multiple ones.
For this reason it is far too easy to play.

Btw spin to win builds are the only way for redguards not to be completely useless.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Shouldn't be able to counter 4 players as one guy. Anything you could possibly do to counter them would only buy you time. Best bet would be to just stay away from team mates(so you don't get caught in the aoe) and pick them off from a distance. If you got no ranged attack then stealth over to an enemy spawn and just start spawn killing squishies. Can't beat you if you deprive them of kills and never fight them.

gariondavey

Slot flare, throw it down, never get attacked again from stealth

Dojohoda

It's ironic that there are fewer counters to spin to win aoe execute than the nightblade's single target execute. It's why nightblades use it.

Amottica

I saw several good points in what I read. One thing to consider is running one of the multiple skills to pull someone out of cloak. There are active ans passive skills that will do this.

OWLTHEMAD

Dojohoda wrote: »

It's ironic that there are fewer counters to spin to win aoe execute than the nightblade's single target execute. It's why nightblades use it.

I try not to [snip] and moan about skills and balance in this game. But i gotta wonder who thought an aoe execute was a good idea

[Edit for profanity.]

Iriidius

Of course 3 players should be stronger than one player. You shouldnt be able to kill them easily as a solo player but at least you should have a chance to escape them. A few years ago I was able to roll back to maingate or to my battleground group when i got attacked by enemy group near them. Nowadays I get killed as fast with roll dodging than without because everyone is spamming whirling blade, jabs and other AOEs and single target damage skills are also hitting while dodging although they shouldnt. Roll Dodge is only wasting my stamina and preventing me from casting heal(because thanks to lag the healing skills i dodge cancel arent used).
And the Player that startet the threat didnt said he was fighting the nightblades alone. Whirlwind is an AOE skill so they can also kill a whole group with spamming it. And because they are nightblades they can attack gank only solo players and dont come out of stealth if they see a group that has any chance against them.

tsaescishoeshiner

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

It's ironic that there are fewer counters to spin to win aoe execute than the nightblade's single target execute. It's why nightblades use it.

I try not to [snip] and moan about skills and balance in this game. But i gotta wonder who thought an aoe execute was a good idea

[Edit for profanity.]

It sounds like what's killing you is group coordination, not Whirlwind. I use whirlwind on my stamsorc—it's strong in the right moment, but not an "i win" button.

Using whirlwind when the enemy is above 50% health wastes a lot of stamina and does little damage.

As an individual, you can't do much to counter 3 players using a high-damage burst build. Having 26k-30k health and using damage shields will help you survive, as well as saving an AoE stun to slow them down—but then what? If you survive their initial assault, how do you fight them unless your groupmates are playing really well and all focusing the same player down 1-by-1?

An equally-coordinated group that is tanky, has a healer, and can coordinate ult/set drops could give them a run for their money or just wear out their stamina.

As an individual, I could only recommend waiting for them to jump on your teammate, and then trying to flip the battle. Drop your stun/ult, heal your allies, and focus on control. That would likely cut into your 1v1 potential ... because group builds counter groups.

fred4

Yeah, a coordinated group doing that is probably the main problem. Spin to win is nasty when your main defense is damage avoidance. I get executed by it on my magblade occasionally. I say occasionally, because not that many people run it in open world. Judicious use of Shadow Image would seem the obvious answer, or Temporal Guard. I also have to say that my magblade feels tankier than my stamblade, since being able to switch from resto to a 1H+S back bar, this patch. Shrewd / Healthy Offering spam, while blocking, is pretty strong, better than Vigor + unreliable Rally on my stamblade that does not have 1H+S. Offering may also work on a stamblade, next patch.

I play with very high speed and without Shadow Image, making me vulnerable to this. I use Zoal, though. That set has a habit of stopping ganks dead and stuns everyone around you. Might help a little. I'm also experimenting with Vateshran DW on my stamblade. That means I don't necessarily have to stay close for my own attacks.

MashmalloMan

Just throwing this out there because I haven't seen it, but should be noted.

Whirling Blades is extremely costly and not nearly as potent as single target executes. WIth it being effected by evasion, the most you'll ever see it do is 6-7k in no cp and thats if it crits. Maybe slightly more with Major Vulnerability or Incap, on average it will do 4-5k damage when someones at 20% hp.

On the flip side, Executioner, Killers Blade, Impale, Mages Wrath and Radiant Destruction regularly hit for 8-12k at 20%. They have much higher scaling and lower cost, but they're single target and therefore can be dodged. (Radiant Destruction is 8-12k every 2 ticks).

The reason people usually prefer Whirling Blades, at least right now, is because it's more friendly to an unstable connection and more reliable since it can't be dodged. When I use to use Executioner regularly about 1-2 years ago, I was able to secure kills much more frequently because it was doing 9k+, but when the performance of PVP degraded around Harrowstorms update, I couldn't stand the abilitty anymore.

Trying to execute someone at 5-10k hp who is roll dodging and line of sighting around a pebble while being forced to hit them in a 5m range will give you a brain aneurysm. Hit detection would frequently get messed up, even though it's an instant skill, my character would show the animation fire for about 200mileseconds only to cancel because the player was apparently out of range which makes no sense if it's suppose to be instant.

Now I only have a lot of experience with Executioner, but look at the other skills. Killers Blade would have the same issue. Impale and Mages Wrath have insanely long travel times and only really kill players who are unaware they're being fired on, it's fairly easy to predict and dodge those skills when you're low health. The only great single target execute left is Radiant Destruction and thats because it's busted strong as a channeled beam for fast ticks at 28m range with an insane multiplier of 500%. It's leagues ahead of Whirling Blades, but it's a different playstyle.

You can and should 100% be able to survive 1 NB ganking you with Whirling Blades, but 3, anyway you spin it, you're most likely dead. As others stated, this is not a question of balance regarding Whirling Blades, but more so to do with a coordinated group of competent NBs abusing players that don't know how to shut them out. All it would take is for 1 person to cast Lingering Flare every 10s. If even 2 people of the 8 between your 2 groups cast that, they'd be completely useless if they were relying on stealth to wombo combo you guys.

MEBengalsFan2001

Whirling blades you should be able to counter with a bash. All channeling abilities should be able to bash.

VarisVaris

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Whirling blades you should be able to counter with a bash. All channeling abilities should be able to bash.

Whirling blades isn't a channeled skill.

MEBengalsFan2001

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Whirling blades you should be able to counter with a bash. All channeling abilities should be able to bash.

Whirling blades isn't a channeled skill.

It should be considering how long the ability last and that is part of the problem IMO. It should have a 2 second channeling time allowing players to counter that spinning more.

gariondavey

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Whirling blades you should be able to counter with a bash. All channeling abilities should be able to bash.

Whirling blades isn't a channeled skill.

It should be considering how long the ability last and that is part of the problem IMO. It should have a 2 second channeling time allowing players to counter that spinning more.

Imo it should last 5 seconds, and you gain 50 percent movespeed. It hits 2 x per second (damage is halved from current value)

Beyyyyyyblaaaaades

VarisVaris

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Whirling blades you should be able to counter with a bash. All channeling abilities should be able to bash.

Whirling blades isn't a channeled skill.

It should be considering how long the ability last and that is part of the problem IMO. It should have a 2 second channeling time allowing players to counter that spinning more.

What?
Whirling blades is an instant cast ability that deals damage exactly once.


An execute is ment to kill players that made mistakes either by killing them due to high damage if they don't avoid them like killer's blade or executioner or they should finish people off who let their health drop too much with less damage but fewer Counterplay options which is the case for Jesus beam or whirling blades.

katorga

Sun7dance wrote: »

It's really hard to counter.

Today you can only block and slot major evasion and that is no solution, sorry!

Block is the most % damage mitigation in the game.

Major evasion is easy to get, another 20%. Plus you have two 10% CP reductions that apply if you choose to slot.

Spin2Win is not what is killing you. It is the coordinated group blasting players down to execute range, then everyone swaps to pulsar and whirling blades. Vicious Death and Plaguebreak does the rest.

marius_buys

The best option is to block cast a burst heal, then shield without dropping block to soak up that damage
I presume you have minor & major resolve up yes?

1 - slot Revealing flare for major protection
2 - slot Radiant Magelight to prevent the stun from stealth
3 - slot the psijic ulti for minor protection (also gives an extra 5K shield when blocking)
4 - slot something on your backbar that ups your resistance when you swap to backbar
5 - use the psijic ulti to get out of the area
6 - one player with woodelf/sentry/way of the air really goes a long way to spotting the ambush way before it can trigger.

TheImperfect

Leave spin to win alone.

marius_buys

TheImperfect wrote: »

Leave spin to win alone.

Yup, its so OP im going dualwield as a mag toon in u33

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Stay out of the battleground premade queue unless your group of 4 has coordinated builds and voice comms. You will get murdered by any decent group. Spin to win is really not the issue here, but it is certainly a bit overtuned.

That said, its not an automatic I win button. If they were really dominating you, either they were actually doing a lot more than whirling blades, or there was some serious L2P issues with the other 8 (or 7) players in the match.

Akinos

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

Yesterday. Played battle grounds in a group of three

Before anybody says as much its our fault queueing together without building for team dynamic. I get that.

That being said, my group encountered a whole team of identical nightblades all running presumeably the same settup.

Their strat. Come out of cloak into whirling blades usually multiples at a time.

They absolutely dominated.

As a nightblade who relies on cloak my self i have no clue how to counter that. Once im hit their is no escape. Usually got about three seconds after that.

They barely used anything else just whirling blades.

How would you counter that? I cant figure it out and the execute scaling was just too punishing when four of them were doing it at a time

Just move your computer chair away from your desk, spin in it in the opposite direction of whirlwind until you pass out, then you won't have to worrying about getting spun and won upon any longer, EZ.