Grey Host/NA AD getting low population bonus while all factions are full populations

FinneganFroth

Any ideas why this is happening? All factions are population full but on score evaluations AD is getting the low population bonus.

Silversmith

Ad tends to get the low pop bonus when DC tends to always have the lowest pop.

xylena_lazarow

It's apparently based on the previous 3 evals and doesn't seem to be designed to handle a volatile server population, so wacky results like "pop locked with low pop bonus" is a disturbingly common event. It also usually fails to activate in time to help the low pop faction while they're actually low pop. Here's hoping ZOS fixes/improves this mechanic someday...

FinneganFroth

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's apparently based on the previous 3 evals and doesn't seem to be designed to handle a volatile server population, so wacky results like "pop locked with low pop bonus" is a disturbingly common event. It also usually fails to activate in time to help the low pop faction while they're actually low pop. Here's hoping ZOS fixes/improves this mechanic someday...

Thanks for the explanation. Seems to be a pretty big problem.

EdmondDontes

With population caps of about 75/faction the low pop scoring bonus just makes things chaotic, and it seems like that is what ZOS wants now days because they are refusing to fix the broken system after knowing about it since immediately after dropping the caps so low.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

The low pop bonus is designed as a catch up to help the faction that was under populated make up for it a bit and also encourage more population. It's not an indication of current population. It would be almost worthless if it only affected players whilst they were gate camped and had no one online because the bonus points would be 0.

xFocused

AD player here on NA PS4. I can't speak for everyone but lately we've been the only alliance with 2 bars most of the time. A lot of AD went to other alliances this campaign and I know that majority of my PvP guild doesn't even bother with Cyrodiil lately due to the all broken stuff in it. So if we're getting low pop it's most likely due to legit low population. There's just not enough AD on most of the time

FinneganFroth

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The low pop bonus is designed as a catch up to help the faction that was under populated make up for it a bit and also encourage more population. It's not an indication of current population. It would be almost worthless if it only affected players whilst they were gate camped and had no one online because the bonus points would be 0.

AD has been getting this bonus for days, with a majority of the map capped, and blowing past EP and DC in points. As of this morning, they still have the bonus. It's not working as intended.

xylena_lazarow

FinneganFroth wrote: »

AD has been getting this bonus for days, with a majority of the map capped, and blowing past EP and DC in points. As of this morning, they still have the bonus. It's not working as intended.

There's also supposed to be a "Low Score Bonus" applied to factions that fall further than (IIRC) 6k down, which never activated a single time the previous campaign in which the top faction held a 10k+ lead for 3 weeks. I haven't seen this bonus come up in years, I don't see how anyone can say the Underdog System is currently working properly.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

It would be almost worthless if it only affected players whilst they were gate camped and had no one online because the bonus points would be 0.

The fact that you can still reduce the low pop faction's score to 0 by gate camping them makes this system pretty worthless in my view. We don't need extra incentives for high pop PvDooring and gate camping. It's a janky way to rig the score to be close and it couldn't even do that in the previous campaign. It encourages the low pop faction to just give up and log out to force the bonus, then come back a few hours later when it kicks in (when the next time zone logs in to pop lock them while the bonus is up). There's no need to defend this trash, we get the idea, it needs a lot of improvement.

Kwoung

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's apparently based on the previous 3 evals and doesn't seem to be designed to handle a volatile server population, so wacky results like "pop locked with low pop bonus" is a disturbingly common event. It also usually fails to activate in time to help the low pop faction while they're actually low pop. Here's hoping ZOS fixes/improves this mechanic someday...

Yeah, based on spending most of the last 3 days in Cyro, that isn't the case at all. All 3 factions were pop-locked for 12+ hours with fairly close scores, yet 1 of them had a low pop bonus almost every time I looked, which was a lot since we were playing the map to win the campaign. The other faction only got it a few times, but it moved them from last to first in the final hours and pretty much ended any hope of us winning the campaign, since we never seem to be the ones who get to benefit from this broken system. We were actually pretty proud we were even able to keep up with, then pass the 2 factions that kept getting this bonus... only to be beaten by it in the end.

I hope they fix it. We still had fun, crowned a friend emp who got to use it for 20+ hours, most of my friends also got their gold rings, even though we came in second, and we had a heck of a lot of fun trying regardless of the disappointing outcome.

Kartalin

I don't know if you have seen the bug in Gray Host but we've had an issue in Ravenwatch (PC/NA) where the populations will occasionally show as 1 bar across even though it's 3-2-3 or whatever. We've also seen AD get the low pop bonus, albeit briefly, when they outnumbered each of the other two factions for the previous two hours. It's possible these bugs are connected and there's some causation there.

As far as low score bonus goes, I've only ever seen that show up when both of the other factions trail the leading faction with less than half the points of the lead faction.

Dojohoda

Yes, I am leaning toward "this is a bug". Funny that it favors AD but, could that detail help them figure out how to fix it?

@Kartalin Yes, just a couple days ago I queued for Gray Host (pcna) and all bars showed as one bar, yet the queue was 54.

NordSwordnBoard

Speculation:
1 - If you only had 1 bar or less
2 - Take two full alliance groups or more into a delve before every or every other eval is taken
3 - Remain at/extend low pop buff until the groups refuse to enter delves near prime time.

The server thinks your pop is lower than it is because the real number were in a delve which is not Cyro technically. Most refuse to believe the enemy can be that organized. I'm not sure myself.
The people who play all day/night long, pushing for Emp and such see this stuff happen in real time. Just a little info from devs here would end some toxic banter and at least give some insight.

Kartalin

Maybe there is an extra negative sign being applied at times, that would make the highest pop appear the smallest if the numbers are negative -- the conditions for low pop bonus might be met and the populations would just default to 1 across at that point.

Minnesinger

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Speculation:
1 - If you only had 1 bar or less
2 - Take two full alliance groups or more into a delve before every or every other eval is taken
3 - Remain at/extend low pop buff until the groups refuse to enter delves near prime time.

The server thinks your pop is lower than it is because the real number were in a delve which is not Cyro technically. Most refuse to believe the enemy can be that organized. I'm not sure myself.
The people who play all day/night long, pushing for Emp and such see this stuff happen in real time. Just a little info from devs here would end some toxic banter and at least give some insight.

And this speculation has caused DC to enter the delves in the hope of catching these groups. Any luck yet?

Thought so

xylena_lazarow

I haven't seen any conclusive proof that players are able to manipulate Low Pop, though I don't doubt some have tried. There's no way that Low Pop flickering on and off multiple times in the same eval can be intended behavior, right? Would be real nice if ZOS gave us some transparency here...

Feaky

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

maxjapank

Feaky wrote: »

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

When I logged in last night during Oceanic time, AD had no scrolls and was one bar. Both EP and DC were two bars. As usual, nothing happening up north.

Delphinia

maxjapank wrote: »

Feaky wrote: »

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

When I logged in last night during Oceanic time, AD had no scrolls and was one bar. Both EP and DC were two bars. As usual, nothing happening up north.

Exactly this @maxjapank . Although, being that we've played forever, we're familiar with this song and dance and it's not much of a shocker unfortunately. (Even when you see posts from other faction leads pleading on the forums that it not be done to them when they get a taste of it themselves, they seem to forget just how much it kills morale, numbers, and any potential for organized groups.. and yet they are back at it).
Also, @Feaky , those "bonuses" for low pop don't always apply it seems. It does indeed seem very off right now. Moreso than I've ever seen in the years I've played, unless it's always been like this and I just never noticed it. It flickers on and off and even up until the very end of the eval, it doesn't always apply. I took a screenshot and posted to this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598109/zos-low-pop-bonus-bug-exploit-throws-grayhost-na-campaign-outcome-with-just-over-a-day-left#latest

TechMaybeHic

I was on tonight when DC got it briefly while people were over 100 in queue. It also happened right after a bunch of players crashed then managed to get back in. Wonder if that has anything to do with it; but I thought it looked at 3 hours Windows , and it sure seems to hit AD a lot. I do know I see that slow bug more on the south part of the map

EdmondDontes

The low pop bonus is still dropping for factions after all factions have been pop locked for over 10 hours.

If ZOS can't fix it, at least admit the error and remove the broken system. This is well within the realm of something ZOS can fix or remove very easily. If they just cared enough to actually fix the broken things in PvP they could in this case.

xFocused

maxjapank wrote: »

Feaky wrote: »

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

When I logged in last night during Oceanic time, AD had no scrolls and was one bar. Both EP and DC were two bars. As usual, nothing happening up north.

Yep. This is accurate. I play on PS4 NA and I won't even touch Blackreach right now because it's all Blue & Red running all over AD without even touching each other. There's even a well known ball group guild coordinating with Reds on his Twitch channel openly helping each other emp and basically just focusing on AD. GH is the complete opposite though

Feaky

Delphinia wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Feaky wrote: »

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

When I logged in last night during Oceanic time, AD had no scrolls and was one bar. Both EP and DC were two bars. As usual, nothing happening up north.

Exactly this @maxjapank . Although, being that we've played forever, we're familiar with this song and dance and it's not much of a shocker unfortunately. (Even when you see posts from other faction leads pleading on the forums that it not be done to them when they get a taste of it themselves, they seem to forget just how much it kills morale, numbers, and any potential for organized groups.. and yet they are back at it).
Also, @Feaky , those "bonuses" for low pop don't always apply it seems. It does indeed seem very off right now. Moreso than I've ever seen in the years I've played, unless it's always been like this and I just never noticed it. It flickers on and off and even up until the very end of the eval, it doesn't always apply. I took a screenshot and posted to this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598109/zos-low-pop-bonus-bug-exploit-throws-grayhost-na-campaign-outcome-with-just-over-a-day-left#latest

Agreed. I've been playing pretty regularly for the past 2+ years and it seemed to work much better in the past, but lately it is really off. Last night, it must have flickered on and off about 40+ times in 8 hours while everyone was pop locked most of night. While AD seemed to benefit most from the low pop, DC and EP had a few as well. It only really matters to campaigns if it is active when scoring ticks, but regardless, it really seems broken right now.

And to clarify, I understand this impacts all factions. I just think they should suspend it until they can investigate what is going on further. It is definitely not working as intended.

Feaky

maxjapank wrote: »

Feaky wrote: »

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

When I logged in last night during Oceanic time, AD had no scrolls and was one bar. Both EP and DC were two bars. As usual, nothing happening up north.

maxjapank wrote: »

Feaky wrote: »

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

When I logged in last night during Oceanic time, AD had no scrolls and was one bar. Both EP and DC were two bars. As usual, nothing happening up north.

@maxjapank, I feel for you and have been on the receiving end of that too. I never been of fan of 2 stronger factions teaming up on the weaker one with no strategic intent other than to get some easy AP, unfortunately there is no way to prevent that from happening. I think when one alliance legitimately has lower current population than the other 2 factions, the low population bonus should be applied or maybe a more sophisticated handicapping mechanic in the future. That would be a situation where it is working as intended. Unfortunately, that is much different than what we are seeing with this mechanic right now. It seems to be randomly going off with no logic.

sbialkow

Ya twice today AD showed low population campaign score bonus over DC when they had more people on than DC (two pie slices versus one for DC). Why play if people cheat and nothing is done?

sbialkow

I am keeping snap shots of the screens that show AD are cheaters.

EdmondDontes

Feaky wrote: »

Delphinia wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Feaky wrote: »

5.5 hours into MYM and been playing in GH since start today. Queue to get into all 3 factions, and each pop locked the entire time, big AD zerg running around the map right now. AD had low pop bonus at least 4 times that I recall so far including now.

ZOS - just remove it please. It is obviously broken or being manipulated.

When I logged in last night during Oceanic time, AD had no scrolls and was one bar. Both EP and DC were two bars. As usual, nothing happening up north.

Exactly this @maxjapank . Although, being that we've played forever, we're familiar with this song and dance and it's not much of a shocker unfortunately. (Even when you see posts from other faction leads pleading on the forums that it not be done to them when they get a taste of it themselves, they seem to forget just how much it kills morale, numbers, and any potential for organized groups.. and yet they are back at it).
Also, @Feaky , those "bonuses" for low pop don't always apply it seems. It does indeed seem very off right now. Moreso than I've ever seen in the years I've played, unless it's always been like this and I just never noticed it. It flickers on and off and even up until the very end of the eval, it doesn't always apply. I took a screenshot and posted to this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598109/zos-low-pop-bonus-bug-exploit-throws-grayhost-na-campaign-outcome-with-just-over-a-day-left#latest

Agreed. I've been playing pretty regularly for the past 2+ years and it seemed to work much better in the past, but lately it is really off. Last night, it must have flickered on and off about 40+ times in 8 hours while everyone was pop locked most of night. While AD seemed to benefit most from the low pop, DC and EP had a few as well. It only really matters to campaigns if it is active when scoring ticks, but regardless, it really seems broken right now.

And to clarify, I understand this impacts all factions. I just think they should suspend it until they can investigate what is going on further. It is definitely not working as intended.

When they dropped population caps to about 75/faction the low pop bonus algorithm became dysfunctional, even more so than when pop caps were higher. For some reason ZOS refuses to update the algorithm or even admit publicly that this is even an issue.

xylena_lazarow

Here's a fun one. AD has also held emp for over 3 hours. Poor DC...

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Here's a fun one. AD has also held emp for over 3 hours. Poor DC...

Lol just can't take ESO seriously. We all act like it would be perfect without lag when it has a ton of other issues

xylena_lazarow

AD has been the highest pop faction the entire day, now having held emp almost 5hrs.

Indigogo

This is truly out of hand.

Same thing is happening across all platforms.
Alliances with numbers and map control getting low pop.
Whether it's bugged or is being exploited, it doesn't matter.
It has to go.

@ZOS_Kevin

Please... the community needs this taken seriously.
You guys patch out trial exploits ASAP and even
ban accounts of those who have benefitted from the bug. The same thing is happening with this but we're shouting into a void.