Magicka Executes compared to Stamina?

MindOfTheSwarm

Anyone else think that Magicka could use a proper out of class execute?
In know Flame Pulsar technically serves this function but it does not compare to skills such as Poison Injection, Executioner and Whirling Blades.

Here is a suggestion for Entropy rework:

Entropy: Bind an enemy with chaotic magic, dealing X Frost Damage over 10 seconds. Deals up to 200% more damage on targets below 50% health.

Degeneration: Keep the same buff. Change damage type to Shock and it deals 50% of its damage in a 4 meter area around the target.

2 possible alternatives for the other morph:

Structured Entropy: Bind an enemy with chaotic magic, dealing X Frost Damage over 10 seconds. Every tick you gain a damage shield equal to 50% of the damage dealt. Up to a maximum of 6000.

Or rework to,

Heat Death: Bind an enemy with chaotic magic, dealing X Frost Damage over 10 seconds. Deals up to 300% more damage on targets below 50% health.

This proposed rework would achieve 3 things:

1. Give an actual real out of class execute to Magicka builds.
2. Add another Frost skill which is needed.
3. Add another Shock skill which is needed.

Thoughts?

Drdeath20

Come next patch they really should revert structured entropy and degeneration back to how it was.

Both morphs give major sorcery/brutality
Both do a small DoT
1 morph heals a little while the other morph is more damage centered

MindOfTheSwarm

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Come next patch they really should revert structured entropy and degeneration back to how it was.

Both morphs give major sorcery/brutality
Both do a small DoT
1 morph heals a little while the other morph is more damage centered

Isn’t that what it is anyway? Outside of the Major Sorcery/Brutality.

Anyway, how about having an actual Magic Execute?

Stam has 3.

I mean Fire Rune could also take a look. I think Volcanic Rune is fine and very good when used right in PvP. Scalding Rune on the other hand is a bit poor.

ealdwin

So, I've been pondering small improvements to the Mages Guild skill line in general, mainly focusing on the Entropy, Fire Rune, and Equilibrium skills and their respective morphs, and adding an execute function in the vein of Poison Injection to the base of Entropy was something I too was considering to fit with the "increasing chaos" idea. It needs some help since it just functions as a DoT at base. I also would like to see more elemental damages in the line aside from Fire and Magic; ideally with 4 potential morphs dealing damage one would be assigned to each of the Fire, Frost, Shock, Magic damage types. At the moment, here are the general changes I'm thinking along the lines of:

- Entropy (base):
- - - Deals up to 100%(?) more damage to enemies under 50%.
- - Degeneration (morph):
- - - - Now deals Shock Damage instead of Magic Damage
- - - - Increase the execute damage to 150% (?)
- - Structured Entropy (morph):
- - - - This morph still heals over time
- Fire Rune (base):
- - - Add the additional Flame Damage over time from Scalding Rune morph to the base ability
- - - This ability also grants Minor Force for the duration
- - Volcanic Rune (morph):
- - - - This morph retains its additional effects
- - Scalding Rune (morph):
- - - - Rename this morph to Shattering Rune
- - - - Now deals Frost Damage instead of Fire Damage
- - - - Now applies Minor Breach to enemies effected (?) -or- Roots enemies hit (?) -or- Increase initial damage (?)
- Equilibrium (base):
- - - This ability no longer reduces healing done and shield strength
- - - Add the 33% reduced cost of next Magicka ability from Spell Symmetry to the base ability
- - Spell Symmetry (morph):
- - - - This morph now provides Major Sorcery & Brutality for 30 seconds
- - Balance (morph):
- - - - This morph now provides Major Resolve for 30 seconds (up from 25)

They admittedly are still rough in some areas (I likewise have no idea what to do with Scalding Rune, besides giving it a different damage type). I'd also like to see a 5th ability added to the skill line along the lines of a summonable Flame Atronach in the vein of the Sorcerer summons where it remains active as long as the skill is slotted. Perhaps one morph is a cold-flame atronach which deals Frost Damage while the other does... something?

But I've gotten a bit higher scope and off track. I agree, add an execute functionality to the base ability of Entropy. The DoT alone is boring.

MindOfTheSwarm

ealdwin wrote: »

So, I've been pondering small improvements to the Mages Guild skill line in general, mainly focusing on the Entropy, Fire Rune, and Equilibrium skills and their respective morphs, and adding an execute function in the vein of Poison Injection to the base of Entropy was something I too was considering to fit with the "increasing chaos" idea. It needs some help since it just functions as a DoT at base. I also would like to see more elemental damages in the line aside from Fire and Magic; ideally with 4 potential morphs dealing damage one would be assigned to each of the Fire, Frost, Shock, Magic damage types. At the moment, here are the general changes I'm thinking along the lines of:

- Entropy (base):
- - - Deals up to 100%(?) more damage to enemies under 50%.
- - Degeneration (morph):
- - - - Now deals Shock Damage instead of Magic Damage
- - - - Increase the execute damage to 150% (?)
- - Structured Entropy (morph):
- - - - This morph still heals over time
- Fire Rune (base):
- - - Add the additional Flame Damage over time from Scalding Rune morph to the base ability
- - - This ability also grants Minor Force for the duration
- - Volcanic Rune (morph):
- - - - This morph retains its additional effects
- - Scalding Rune (morph):
- - - - Rename this morph to Shattering Rune
- - - - Now deals Frost Damage instead of Fire Damage
- - - - Now applies Minor Breach to enemies effected (?) -or- Roots enemies hit (?) -or- Increase initial damage (?)
- Equilibrium (base):
- - - This ability no longer reduces healing done and shield strength
- - - Add the 33% reduced cost of next Magicka ability from Spell Symmetry to the base ability
- - Spell Symmetry (morph):
- - - - This morph now provides Major Sorcery & Brutality for 30 seconds
- - Balance (morph):
- - - - This morph now provides Major Resolve for 30 seconds (up from 25)

They admittedly are still rough in some areas (I likewise have no idea what to do with Scalding Rune, besides giving it a different damage type). I'd also like to see a 5th ability added to the skill line along the lines of a summonable Flame Atronach in the vein of the Sorcerer summons where it remains active as long as the skill is slotted. Perhaps one morph is a cold-flame atronach which deals Frost Damage while the other does... something?

But I've gotten a bit higher scope and off track. I agree, add an execute functionality to the base ability of Entropy. The DoT alone is boring.

These ideas are good.

I went with higher execute on Frost morph as Frost builds do not have an execute. Unless they run bear which is kind of forcing them to do so. I went with AoE execute on the Shock morph as it would serve as a Magicka variants of Reverse Slice meets Growing Swarm, but Shock. Which fits with Shock’s AoE thematically. Plus Shock builds have Mages Wrath. Hence my decision to have Frost as the bigger execute.
I made it higher than 100% as I feel that 100% more is too low. Poison Injection was over nerfed in my opinion.

francesinhalover

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

agelonestar

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Stamsorc is the only setup that need much love right now - the others are all playable to one degree or another, but stamsorc is yea in the water. So yeah, totally agree !

MindOfTheSwarm

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Executioner, Whirling Blades and Poison Injection. You even still use Mages Wrath on a Stamsorc especially next patch with everything scaling with highest resource.

Stam has more options than Mag for executes.

Mag however does not have anything outside of class options. DK, Warden and Necro suffer as a result. Flame Pulsar doesn’t qualify. Warden has bear execute but is thus forced to run bear as a result, meaning running other ultimates directly takes away execute options of running Destro staff on both bars

krachall

Good idea. Then the last two players in all of ESO using Stam will finally switch to Mag and ZOS can just eliminate Stam all together.

El_Borracho

I would love more executes. But the only non-class execute I can think of worth anything is Executioner/Reverse Slice, and its only for 2H. Sorry, but Whirling Blades stinks; about 1,400 more stamina for 300% LESS damage than Executioner.

Instead of messing with Entropy, why not give Undaunted an execute skill that can be a stamina or magicka morph? Not asking for something like Radiant Destruction (which is incredible), but something in the range of Reverse Slice. 300% more damage for enemies under 50% health for 2,000-2,500 resource cost.

WrathOfInnos

Executioner will be available on Magicka builds in a few weeks. Front barring a greatsword is looking like a good option just for that skill, especially since Ele Weapon is getting buffed to the point where Force Pulse is not needed. Even on Mag Sorc, Executioner is a better option than Endless Fury or Mage's Wrath, assuming you can be within melee distance. I think only Nightblades and Templars will use their class execute.

MindOfTheSwarm

El_Borracho wrote: »

I would love more executes. But the only non-class execute I can think of worth anything is Executioner/Reverse Slice, and its only for 2H. Sorry, but Whirling Blades stinks; about 1,400 more stamina for 300% LESS damage than Executioner.

Instead of messing with Entropy, why not give Undaunted an execute skill that can be a stamina or magicka morph? Not asking for something like Radiant Destruction (which is incredible), but something in the range of Reverse Slice. 300% more damage for enemies under 50% health for 2,000-2,500 resource cost.

Whirling Blades “stinks” because it has trusts that Executioner does not. Those being AoE thus it not being able to be dodged and also Dual Wield has a passive execute anyway.

I admit that it still is a shoddy choice in PvE however and Poison Injection was once a good execute before it got nerfed. Now it’s only good when paired with Sheer Venom.

Personally I do not think that any direct AoE ability should have execute bonuses on it.

I think it would be fine for a static ground DoT to have execute though. Would be easy to simply move out of in PvP but it would also be a perfect zoning tool. And it would be good in PvE too as ground DoT’s are usually in a rotation anyway.

El_Borracho

@MindOfTheSwarm totally agree. I just think Blades is an expensive skill for the return and while it is technically an execute, its not really an execute in the way that Radiant Oppression, Killer's Blade, or Executioner are.

Kind of funny, when you look at it, not really a lot of executes out there.

Seraphayel

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Stamina builds right now have half a dozen executes from weapon skill lines and passives. In U33 they have all the Magicka class executes, too.

Magicka has zero weapon or skill line based executes. They only have class based executes. Stamina really cannot complain here, not at all.

Everest_Lionheart

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Executioner will be available on Magicka builds in a few weeks. Front barring a greatsword is looking like a good option just for that skill, especially since Ele Weapon is getting buffed to the point where Force Pulse is not needed. Even on Mag Sorc, Executioner is a better option than Endless Fury or Mage's Wrath, assuming you can be within melee distance. I think only Nightblades and Templars will use their class execute.

Mag users running double 2H with a maelstrom 2H backbar. Hope you have the sustain for a crazy setup like that. Maybe just buff staves to give more sustain pressure over the course of the fight to compete with executioner.

krachall

Buff staves? 😂😂😂😂😂

When 8 of 9 DPS in every trials group are using staves, that is an extremely clear indicator that staves need absolutely no buffing.

WrathOfInnos

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Executioner will be available on Magicka builds in a few weeks. Front barring a greatsword is looking like a good option just for that skill, especially since Ele Weapon is getting buffed to the point where Force Pulse is not needed. Even on Mag Sorc, Executioner is a better option than Endless Fury or Mage's Wrath, assuming you can be within melee distance. I think only Nightblades and Templars will use their class execute.

Mag users running double 2H with a maelstrom 2H backbar. Hope you have the sustain for a crazy setup like that. Maybe just buff staves to give more sustain pressure over the course of the fight to compete with executioner.

Yeah, I can't say what the meta will be, so many options. Entirely possible that a 2h front bar (with Executioner and Stampede) would allow keeping the maelstrom staff on back bar. Generally two of the same weapon type is suboptimal. Not sure if this means maelstrom greatsword front bar, which leaves an awkward 9 gear slots for sets if you're using a mythic, or just sticking with 5-5-1 and only one maelstrom weapon.

Xarc

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Executioner will be available on Magicka builds in a few weeks. Front barring a greatsword is looking like a good option just for that skill, especially since Ele Weapon is getting buffed to the point where Force Pulse is not needed. Even on Mag Sorc, Executioner is a better option than Endless Fury or Mage's Wrath, assuming you can be within melee distance. I think only Nightblades and Templars will use their class execute.

Mag users running double 2H with a maelstrom 2H backbar. Hope you have the sustain for a crazy setup like that. Maybe just buff staves to give more sustain pressure over the course of the fight to compete with executioner.

Yeah I need an execute on my magcro.
Would be perfect.

ajkb78

ealdwin wrote: »

So, I've been pondering small improvements to the Mages Guild skill line in general, mainly focusing on the Entropy, Fire Rune, and Equilibrium skills and their respective morphs, and adding an execute function in the vein of Poison Injection to the base of Entropy was something I too was considering to fit with the "increasing chaos" idea. It needs some help since it just functions as a DoT at base. I also would like to see more elemental damages in the line aside from Fire and Magic; ideally with 4 potential morphs dealing damage one would be assigned to each of the Fire, Frost, Shock, Magic damage types. At the moment, here are the general changes I'm thinking along the lines of:

- Entropy (base):
- - - Deals up to 100%(?) more damage to enemies under 50%.
- - Degeneration (morph):
- - - - Now deals Shock Damage instead of Magic Damage
- - - - Increase the execute damage to 150% (?)
- - Structured Entropy (morph):
- - - - This morph still heals over time
- Fire Rune (base):
- - - Add the additional Flame Damage over time from Scalding Rune morph to the base ability
- - - This ability also grants Minor Force for the duration
- - Volcanic Rune (morph):
- - - - This morph retains its additional effects
- - Scalding Rune (morph):
- - - - Rename this morph to Shattering Rune
- - - - Now deals Frost Damage instead of Fire Damage
- - - - Now applies Minor Breach to enemies effected (?) -or- Roots enemies hit (?) -or- Increase initial damage (?)
- Equilibrium (base):
- - - This ability no longer reduces healing done and shield strength
- - - Add the 33% reduced cost of next Magicka ability from Spell Symmetry to the base ability
- - Spell Symmetry (morph):
- - - - This morph now provides Major Sorcery & Brutality for 30 seconds
- - Balance (morph):
- - - - This morph now provides Major Resolve for 30 seconds (up from 25)

They admittedly are still rough in some areas (I likewise have no idea what to do with Scalding Rune, besides giving it a different damage type). I'd also like to see a 5th ability added to the skill line along the lines of a summonable Flame Atronach in the vein of the Sorcerer summons where it remains active as long as the skill is slotted. Perhaps one morph is a cold-flame atronach which deals Frost Damage while the other does... something?

But I've gotten a bit higher scope and off track. I agree, add an execute functionality to the base ability of Entropy. The DoT alone is boring.

You haven't taken into account the mages guild passive Everlasting Magic, balance already provides 30s major resolve in fact it's what the other skills that provide it were recently extended to match.

Seraphayel

krachall wrote: »

Buff staves? 😂😂😂😂😂

When 8 of 9 DPS in every trials group are using staves, that is an extremely clear indicator that staves need absolutely no buffing.

You realize that this has nothing to do with Destruction Staff though?

sarahthes

krachall wrote: »

Buff staves? 😂😂😂😂😂

When 8 of 9 DPS in every trials group are using staves, that is an extremely clear indicator that staves need absolutely no buffing.

Next patch mag users are likely going to be DW front bar and maelstrom GS backbar. So yeah inferno staves should probably be buffed.

JobooAGS

sarahthes wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

Buff staves? 😂😂😂😂😂

When 8 of 9 DPS in every trials group are using staves, that is an extremely clear indicator that staves need absolutely no buffing.

Next patch mag users are likely going to be DW front bar and maelstrom GS backbar. So yeah inferno staves should probably be buffed.

Isn’t this just…. Stam?….

Mushroomancer

I would agree that a non-class, single target, magicka execute is needed, and Entropy would probably be a good fit.
However, OP, I know that you are a big proponent of frost damage (see you post something about it like every other day, along with a couple of other people), but can we please not with just slapping frost damage onto random abilities?

Magden would most likely be the only class that can really take frost damage to the extreme, so just maybe work with the frost damage dealing abilities we have and make them work better for DDs, if what you want is good frost damage options.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Seraphayel wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Stamina builds right now have half a dozen executes from weapon skill lines and passives. In U33 they have all the Magicka class executes, too.

Magicka has zero weapon or skill line based executes. They only have class based executes. Stamina really cannot complain here, not at all.

Yes and magicka will have Access to all stam executes too. I wouldn't call whirling blades and reverse slice "half a dozen"

Seraphayel

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Stamina builds right now have half a dozen executes from weapon skill lines and passives. In U33 they have all the Magicka class executes, too.

Magicka has zero weapon or skill line based executes. They only have class based executes. Stamina really cannot complain here, not at all.

Yes and magicka will have Access to all stam executes too. I wouldn't call whirling blades and reverse slice "half a dozen"

Magicka has a hard time making use of them because they’re weapon bound. Class executes are not.

Stamina has Poison Injection and Slaughter (DW passive) as well, don’t forget them. For Magicka there are exactly zero, 0, execute abilities. There are just the class executed. Warden (sorry, I almost forgot that [snip] Bear execute), Necromancer (besides that pretty underwhelming passive for more crit) and Dragon Knight don’t even have that.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

OBJnoob

The real problem is that there are more stam weapons than magic weapons. Every weapon line has an execute except the obvious two. And not many stam toons have class executes either.

Wrong time to start the discussion I think though cuz pretty soon you can use whatever weapon you want.

Everest_Lionheart

Seraphayel wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Stamina builds right now have half a dozen executes from weapon skill lines and passives. In U33 they have all the Magicka class executes, too.

Magicka has zero weapon or skill line based executes. They only have class based executes. Stamina really cannot complain here, not at all.

Yes and magicka will have Access to all stam executes too. I wouldn't call whirling blades and reverse slice "half a dozen"

Magicka has a hard time making use of them because they’re weapon bound. Class executes are not.

Stamina has Poison Injection and Slaughter (DW passive) as well, don’t forget them. For Magicka there are exactly zero, 0, execute abilities. There are just the class executed. Warden, Necromancer (besides that pretty underwhelming passive for more crit) and Dragon Knight don’t even have that.

For what it’s worth if DK had an execute nobody would play any of the other mag classes. I mean we are talking about pushing 110K parsing wearing Zen’s right now. Imagine that plus an execute. 🤣

Seraphayel

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Stamina builds right now have half a dozen executes from weapon skill lines and passives. In U33 they have all the Magicka class executes, too.

Magicka has zero weapon or skill line based executes. They only have class based executes. Stamina really cannot complain here, not at all.

Yes and magicka will have Access to all stam executes too. I wouldn't call whirling blades and reverse slice "half a dozen"

Magicka has a hard time making use of them because they’re weapon bound. Class executes are not.

Stamina has Poison Injection and Slaughter (DW passive) as well, don’t forget them. For Magicka there are exactly zero, 0, execute abilities. There are just the class executed. Warden, Necromancer (besides that pretty underwhelming passive for more crit) and Dragon Knight don’t even have that.

For what it’s worth if DK had an execute nobody would play any of the other mag classes. I mean we are talking about pushing 110K parsing wearing Zen’s right now. Imagine that plus an execute. 🤣

That’s just the recent state of the game due to some (over)buffing. This happens from time to time with every spec / class. I just think on a level playing field all classes / builds should have access to at least one class and one weapon / skill line based execute.

Everest_Lionheart

Seraphayel wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

stam sorcerer doesn't even have one.
and tbh i don't consider whirlwind worth using. does little more dmg at 15% hp? oh wow so worth it.

Stamina builds right now have half a dozen executes from weapon skill lines and passives. In U33 they have all the Magicka class executes, too.

Magicka has zero weapon or skill line based executes. They only have class based executes. Stamina really cannot complain here, not at all.

Yes and magicka will have Access to all stam executes too. I wouldn't call whirling blades and reverse slice "half a dozen"

Magicka has a hard time making use of them because they’re weapon bound. Class executes are not.

Stamina has Poison Injection and Slaughter (DW passive) as well, don’t forget them. For Magicka there are exactly zero, 0, execute abilities. There are just the class executed. Warden, Necromancer (besides that pretty underwhelming passive for more crit) and Dragon Knight don’t even have that.

For what it’s worth if DK had an execute nobody would play any of the other mag classes. I mean we are talking about pushing 110K parsing wearing Zen’s right now. Imagine that plus an execute. 🤣

That’s just the recent state of the game due to some (over)buffing. This happens from time to time with every spec / class. I just thing on a level playing field all classes / builds should have access to at least one class and one weapon / skill line based execute.

I mean most of us are using daggers right now so we could slot whirling blades but it’s likely a DPS loss until the last 10-15%. Same
Next patch with executioner on backbar which will hit crazy hard if you can keep you mag close to zero (and likely why Bahsei is getting the nerf because for sure it will overperform. As a stam player using Bahsei now I have been seeing 136K hits with it in the last million health. That’s almost as hard as a bear ulti but cast 5x in a row. Put the 5 executioners plus bear ulti together that’s a mil health in about 6 seconds.

MindOfTheSwarm

Mushroomancer wrote: »

I would agree that a non-class, single target, magicka execute is needed, and Entropy would probably be a good fit.
However, OP, I know that you are a big proponent of frost damage (see you post something about it like every other day, along with a couple of other people), but can we please not with just slapping frost damage onto random abilities?

Magden would most likely be the only class that can really take frost damage to the extreme, so just maybe work with the frost damage dealing abilities we have and make them work better for DDs, if what you want is good frost damage options.

Frost needs at least one more skill option. So does Shock for that matter. Also Entropy, seemed fitting given what Entropy literally means. That being said it was just a suggestion, but if Entropy should remain Magic Damage then a different skill needs Frost. Either that or a new world skill line or third morphs need to come.
Putting Shock and Frost effects on set pieces isn’t addressing the fact that Fire still has more options. There is a list online somewhere that highlights this. The discrepancy is very large.
Some suggest making Animal Companions all Frost, but I am 100% against the idea as I still want the option to make a Magic Damage Warden if I wanted to.
Entropy simply seemed like a good candidate, at least for one of its morphs while the other morph being Shock gives that some needed attention too.

I thought that having Mystic Orb change its damage type dependant on equipped weapon could also be interesting.

Destro Staff = Fire, Shock and Frost.
Bow = Poison
Dual Wield = Disease
Two Handed = Bleed
Sword and Board = Physical
Resto Staff = Becomes the Healing Orb.

Each orb would have unique effect. Fire more explosion damage or something.
With Resto staff auto giving the heal orb, this would also free up Energy Orb morph to do something new.

This idea probably more appropriate in a separate post but though it relevant here.

Amottica

If it was going to increase DPS, which would be the only reason to add such a skill, Zenimax should nerf the rest of magicka damage to compensate or it would just add to the power creep which has been a major issue with ESO making older content even more trivial.