Is it exploiting when NB's use Shadow Cloak skill to port in and out of opponents keeps?

EdmondDontes

Is it an exploit when an NB uses this skill to port in and out of an opponents keep over and over?

Should this be something that a player can do?

redspecter23

I believe that any method to enter a keep other than a door or hole in the wall is considered an exploit. Jumping, porting, gap closers, etc.

The real question is whether or not ZOS enforces any actual punishments and if it's on a scale that's able to keep these actions to a minimum. It's like bumping a pinball table for some people. Those sort of players don't consider it cheating unless they actually get caught and punished for doing it, which could be never. Risk vs reward and of course the added "benefit" of blatantly cheating right in front of the opposition and going unpunished. That sort of psychological effect can't be ignored.

xylena_lazarow

Is this still happening? The 7.2.5 patch notes specifically claimed to have fixed this. Yes it's an exploit, assuming they didn't fairly enter the keep while it was open at an earlier point.

EdmondDontes

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Is this still happening? The 7.2.5 patch notes specifically claimed to have fixed this. Yes it's an exploit.

Yes this is still happening. Yesterday I was trying to fight a player in a keep my faction owned and the NB ported in and out of the keep 5 times back to back. It made it impossible to kill him because I would have to run back around and come in a door to get back in the keep, but the NB of course didn't have to. I could wait by his shade, but he would always come back at 100% health, so what was the point.

Good to know. I will report in the future. This is a relatively famous 1vX person on PC NA and he may even stream.

xylena_lazarow

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Yesterday I was trying to fight a player in a keep my faction owned and the NB ported in and out of the keep 5 times back to back.

How did they originally get in? What could've happened: the NB entered the keep fairly while it was open, hid inside after it was closed, and is now trolling pursuers by placing their shade on the wall, jumping off, and porting back up, which is its intended function and not an exploit. What ZOS said they fixed was an exploit where the NB could "climb" over the walls of a closed keep from ground outside by repeatedly recasting it midair.

EdmondDontes

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Yesterday I was trying to fight a player in a keep my faction owned and the NB ported in and out of the keep 5 times back to back.

How did they originally get in? What could've happened: the NB entered the keep fairly while it was open, hid inside after it was closed, and is now trolling pursuers by placing their shade on the wall, jumping off, and porting back up, which is its intended function and not an exploit. What ZOS said they fixed was an exploit where the NB could "climb" over the walls of a closed keep from ground outside by repeatedly recasting it midair.

I believe the NB got into the keep legitimately to begin with. I'm pretty sure they came in through an open front door. The fight I'm describing took place after the front door was repaired back up. My problem was that this behavior made the player invincible as there is no way to fight them when they do this. I do not think they exploited into the keep originally, so it sounds like this fits more into the category of super annoying is all.

Merforum

Yup that is clearly an exploit. Once the door is repaired and the NB jumps out of keep the shade should vanish. The shade in general is broken actually, it should NOT work through doors, walls, ceilings, it should require at a minimum LOS.

xylena_lazarow

Merforum wrote: »

Once the door is repaired and the NB jumps out of keep the shade should vanish. The shade in general is broken actually, it should NOT work through doors, walls, ceilings, it should require at a minimum LOS.

Interesting, didn't know that, was it in a recent patch notes? No way to tell whether the NB knew that...

There are still legit ways to port from below your shade back up onto a wall, you can do it maintaining LoS.

Dojohoda

I'm guessing you are talking about Shadow Image and not Shadow Cloak.

No, it is not an exploit, the skill is working properly. It doesn't matter "if the door is closed" and if a nightblade casts it on a keep wall, then jumps down and, shortly after, ports to the shade. That is a unique strategy for the nightblade. I don't care if people don't like how it works, but it is working properly.

No, the shade should not vanish because the door is closed. It will vanish on its own after 18 seconds.

Jaimeh

If they went in the keep through the outer FD, and then used shade to toggle back and forth from the outer walls to the inner courtyard, then that's fine and intended, but if they used shade to port from outside of the keep to the outer walls/inner courtyard, when the outer FD was closed, then that theoretically should have been fixed and not be happening anymore afaik.

Merforum

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Once the door is repaired and the NB jumps out of keep the shade should vanish. The shade in general is broken actually, it should NOT work through doors, walls, ceilings, it should require at a minimum LOS.

Interesting, didn't know that, was it in a recent patch notes? No way to tell whether the NB knew that...

There are still legit ways to port from below your shade back up onto a wall, you can do it maintaining LoS.

OH NO sorry I am not saying that is the way shade works now, I'm saying that is how it should be. The way shade works now is broken and allows stuff like porting back into a keep which it should not allow. And using this is clearly an exploit. But there are many people in this game that think, if the game allows something then by definition it is not an exploit. Which is illogical because to even exploit anything the game has to allow it in the first place. Exploit is simply a bug or tactic that is not intended to gain unfair advantage.

BTW right now you can teleport thru walls and ceilings which is another reason why shade is broken. Although as broken as it is it is less broken than inviso which is not only insane defensively but also offensively (kind of like streak but much worse).

Ipsius

Absolutely, positively not an exploit. How could you consider using a skill with it's intended function an exploit?? What is being exploited?

The Shade teleport is a function of the skill. It's what it's used for. Saying it's an exploit is like saying Negate is being exploited by making targets unable to cast spells.

This skill is certainly strong and effective for griefing and escaping, and frustrating as you've described, but an exploit? Come on.

Merforum

Ipsius wrote: »

Absolutely, positively not an exploit. How could you consider using a skill with it's intended function an exploit?? What is being exploited?

The Shade teleport is a function of the skill. It's what it's used for. Saying it's an exploit is like saying Negate is being exploited by making targets unable to cast spells.

This skill is certainly strong and effective for griefing and escaping, and frustrating as you've described, but an exploit? Come on.

It's function is NOT to re-enter a closed keep. ZOS has specifically said that is no skill is supposed to do that, they have just not fixed this particular bug yet. USING IT THIS WAY IS AN EXPLOIT. Using it to do the same thing in a open tower, would be under the heading of annoying and should be fixed but NOT an Exploit. Details matter.

Ipsius

Merforum wrote: »

Ipsius wrote: »

Absolutely, positively not an exploit. How could you consider using a skill with it's intended function an exploit?? What is being exploited?

The Shade teleport is a function of the skill. It's what it's used for. Saying it's an exploit is like saying Negate is being exploited by making targets unable to cast spells.

This skill is certainly strong and effective for griefing and escaping, and frustrating as you've described, but an exploit? Come on.

It's function is NOT to re-enter a closed keep. ZOS has specifically said that is no skill is supposed to do that, they have just not fixed this particular bug yet. USING IT THIS WAY IS AN EXPLOIT. Using it to do the same thing in a open tower, would be under the heading of annoying and should be fixed but NOT an Exploit. Details matter.

Yes, details matter. If there is a closed keep, and a player walks up to a wall and gets inside without sieging, that's an exploit.

If a player is ALREADY INSIDE a keep and uses Shade for it's intended purpose, that is not an exploit, not in the least.

Should all enemies inside an enemy keep instantly die the moment all walls and doors are repaired too?

Merforum

Ipsius wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Ipsius wrote: »

Absolutely, positively not an exploit. How could you consider using a skill with it's intended function an exploit?? What is being exploited?

The Shade teleport is a function of the skill. It's what it's used for. Saying it's an exploit is like saying Negate is being exploited by making targets unable to cast spells.

This skill is certainly strong and effective for griefing and escaping, and frustrating as you've described, but an exploit? Come on.

It's function is NOT to re-enter a closed keep. ZOS has specifically said that is no skill is supposed to do that, they have just not fixed this particular bug yet. USING IT THIS WAY IS AN EXPLOIT. Using it to do the same thing in a open tower, would be under the heading of annoying and should be fixed but NOT an Exploit. Details matter.

Yes, details matter. If there is a closed keep, and a player walks up to a wall and gets inside without sieging, that's an exploit.

If a player is ALREADY INSIDE a keep and uses Shade for it's intended purpose, that is not an exploit, not in the least.

Should all enemies inside an enemy keep instantly die the moment all walls and doors are repaired too?

Once the NB jumps out of the keep with the door closed he is NO LONGER INSIDE and NO he should NOT be able to get back in without siege as intended. Doing so is cheating. If he stayed hidden inside the keep the that is completely legit. I don't think this is a hard concept.

I'll end it there because it is obvious we are not discussing what is intended in the game, and you are probably just trying to justify using this exploit yourself. So have fun with your exploit, they probably have a lot more important stuff to fix than this.

Ipsius

I didn't think it was a hard concept either, but here we are.

From the description for Shadow Image: "...While the shade is summoned, you can activate this ability again to teleport to the shade's location..."

Again, what is being exploited? Where does it say in the TOS that once your feet touch the ground outside a keep it's illegal to use your skills as intended to get back inside?

Also, you are aware the skill "Undo" exists and is available to all players and is capable of the same behavior? You'll have an awful lot of frivolous reporting to do if that's an exploit too.

EdmondDontes

Ipsius wrote: »

I didn't think it was a hard concept either, but here we are.

From the description for Shadow Image: "...While the shade is summoned, you can activate this ability again to teleport to the shade's location..."

Again, what is being exploited? Where does it say in the TOS that once your feet touch the ground outside a keep it's illegal to use your skills as intended to get back inside?

Also, you are aware the skill "Undo" exists and is available to all players and is capable of the same behavior? You'll have an awful lot of frivolous reporting to do if that's an exploit too.

Undo is an ulti and can't be used over and over again back to back. And I've never seen anyone use it to get back into a keep. Strawman argument.

I feel very strongly that once a keep is closed and someone jumps out of the keep, ANYTHING they do to get back in is an exploit and unintended behavior. I'm confident once the keep is closed then you're supposed to have to use a door or siege to get back in is the intention. It's super tacky and an unreasonable advantage to use a shade to jump in and out of a closed keep. It's not possible to defend against this behavior.

Ipsius

You can feel very strongly all you'd like. The question was whether it's an exploit, and the answer is, unequivocally, no.

Since you've already made up your mind, why even pose it as a question if you won't accept the correct answer?

Dojohoda

The nightblade is technically still inside the keep by virtue of its shade, which expires at 18 seconds. The nightblade cannot get inside a keep without walking in through a breach in the first place.

It's legit.

I use shade to jump down and burn enemy camps, then I can get back on the wall. I've used it to make enemies follow me off the side of the wall. Then I can get back in and the enemies have to run around. In all instances of my use of shade regarding a keep, I first entered the keep through a breach.

For about a year, the shade was bugged and could not do this. Prior to the bug and after they fixed it, it can do what it does now. It is working as intended; it is not an exploit. It is the most important skill for the tricky nightblade playstyle.

xDeusEJRx

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Ipsius wrote: »

I didn't think it was a hard concept either, but here we are.

From the description for Shadow Image: "...While the shade is summoned, you can activate this ability again to teleport to the shade's location..."

Again, what is being exploited? Where does it say in the TOS that once your feet touch the ground outside a keep it's illegal to use your skills as intended to get back inside?

Also, you are aware the skill "Undo" exists and is available to all players and is capable of the same behavior? You'll have an awful lot of frivolous reporting to do if that's an exploit too.

Undo is an ulti and can't be used over and over again back to back. And I've never seen anyone use it to get back into a keep. Strawman argument.

You can make the same argument about shade, you're limited how many times you can shade based on resources, as resources are finite after all. It's possible to do it more than undo, but still finite after all. Also just because you never seen someone do something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or can't happen. That's like me saying "i've never lagged in pvp, therefore it doesn't happen". It's totally possible to do it with undo, I've seen people do this multiple times when getting chased, they just jump and undo afterwards to bait people out of a keep and teleport themselves back in. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that statement

OBJnoob

I agree with everyone saying it’s not an exploit.

As far as counterplay goes…. Why not just babysit the shade? If they come back you get the fight you want. If they don’t come back you get the nb out of the keep. Win win.

EdmondDontes

Ipsius wrote: »

You can feel very strongly all you'd like. The question was whether it's an exploit, and the answer is, unequivocally, no.

Since you've already made up your mind, why even pose it as a question if you won't accept the correct answer?

You're word on the issue is not the final word. Your posts make it clear you are participating in the activity I am taking issue with.

EdmondDontes

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with everyone saying it’s not an exploit.

As far as counterplay goes…. Why not just babysit the shade? If they come back you get the fight you want. If they don’t come back you get the nb out of the keep. Win win.

You can't. Every time the player comes back into the keep they are at 100% health and they just use their shade and jump back out as soon as they start taking significant damage. This is another reason I suspect this behavior might actually be an exploit and unintended. Babysitting their shade doesn't work.

Ipsius

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Ipsius wrote: »

You can feel very strongly all you'd like. The question was whether it's an exploit, and the answer is, unequivocally, no.

Since you've already made up your mind, why even pose it as a question if you won't accept the correct answer?

You're word on the issue is not the final word. Your posts make it clear you are participating in the activity I am taking issue with.

I have literally never done this, but go ahead and pretend because you have no actual argument.

Did you know DKs skill Petrify bypasses block AND immobilizes you? You can't block the stun! Is it "super tacky" and an "unreasonable advantage"?

Did you know Sorcerer Streak can move someone to rocks that are hard/impossible to reach for other classes? Only sorcerers! Super tacky and unreasonable advantage!

Necro ultimate Bone Colossus practically resets a fight by giving 30k hp and powerful stat boosts! Report them!

Since you don't seem to know what one is, if I were to claim you believe these things and mock you for it, THAT would be a strawman argument.

I appreciate it's difficult for you to admit you are wrong, and you're frustrated by your inability to kill other players, but crying "exploit" because you don't like something just makes you appear foolish.

React

This dude is actually complaining about a nightblade shading back into a keep, which is actually the furthest thing from an exploit. You have 20 seconds after casting the shade to port back to it, and only if you remain in range. If you were so concerned about him porting back into the keep, you should have just sat on his shade until it dissapeared, or he ported back to it so you could hit him again.

Saying "there was nothing I could do about it" is such an invalid argument.

Silversmith

Probably an overlooked mechanic.

If they don't want NBs teleporting back in then they'll make it so all shades are destroyed when the keep is repaired and NBs wont be able to place new shades until there is a breach.

If they want NBs teleporting back in then they wont change anything.

EdmondDontes

Liam12548 wrote: »

This dude is actually complaining about a nightblade shading back into a keep, which is actually the furthest thing from an exploit. You have 20 seconds after casting the shade to port back to it, and only if you remain in range. If you were so concerned about him porting back into the keep, you should have just sat on his shade until it dissapeared, or he ported back to it so you could hit him again.

Saying "there was nothing I could do about it" is such an invalid argument.

Wrong. Of course I camped his shade. He came back with 100% health every time, and as soon as I'd get damage on him, he'd jump out again, only to port back into the keep using his shade and have 100% health, rinse and repeat....like the typical afraid to fight when visible NB.

Merforum

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

This dude is actually complaining about a nightblade shading back into a keep, which is actually the furthest thing from an exploit. You have 20 seconds after casting the shade to port back to it, and only if you remain in range. If you were so concerned about him porting back into the keep, you should have just sat on his shade until it dissapeared, or he ported back to it so you could hit him again.

Saying "there was nothing I could do about it" is such an invalid argument.

Wrong. Of course I camped his shade. He came back with 100% health every time, and as soon as I'd get damage on him, he'd jump out again, only to port back into the keep using his shade and have 100% health, rinse and repeat....like the typical afraid to fight when visible NB.

NO point arguing with them, cheaters gonna cheat and you have found some of them here too. The point they are conveniently avoiding is that THEY aren't just HIDING in the keep and still there after it gets repaired and legit be in there. But we are talking about dudes that get CAUGHT in there and use this tactic to stay alive long enough for people to give up then get back in by cheating. And probably just there to gank people just trying to do repairs, how low can they be. But ZOS will probably never fix it unless by accident like apparently how they accidentally made it work in the first place.

rbfrgsp

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Wrong. Of course I camped his shade. He came back with 100% health every time, and as soon as I'd get damage on him, he'd jump out again, only to port back into the keep using his shade and have 100% health, rinse and repeat....like the typical afraid to fight when visible NB.

A really important lesson for this and any other MMO: you don't get to kill everything. You shouldn't expect to be able to kill everything. The game revolves around asymmetrical combat (different roles, classes). When you are faced with a battle you feel you cannot win, it is your role to solve it in some other, more inventive way. Don't ask for the game to be changed until you are able to kill everything without really having to try very hard. You'll enjoy that even less.

BlossomDead

Meatbag the shadow area next time and use a detect potion.

xylena_lazarow

rbfrgsp wrote: »

A really important lesson for this and any other MMO: you don't get to kill everything. You shouldn't expect to be able to kill everything.

We're way past that point, we're now in "nothing dies unless you zerg or only fight players/groups you know are weaker than you." There's a million ways to indefinitely stall out fights, and pretty much only two ways to end them. While solo NB shade trolling is not an egregious example, a meta that skews so severely towards indefinite stalemates is not healthy.