Buffs/Debuffs in Need of Source Variety

Eormenric

I've always wanted to keep track of buff/debuff versatility, so this thread will help do that. There are currently 11 sources of which to acquire buffs and debuffs:

Class
World (only Vampire and Werewolf)
Guild (only Fighters, Mages, Psijic, and Undaunted)
Weapon
Armor
Alliance War
Monster Set
Weapon Set (*note: These have currently run the gambit of 1 armor set per skill. Either they will need to start doubling up, e.g. having 2 armor sets that affect, say, Uppercut, or include Ultimates or involve light/heavy attacking or be weapon-type specific--but that doesn't work with resto staves)
Craftable Set
Dropped (3) or (5)-Piece Set (which could further be divided into PvE and PvP)
Alchemy (Potions/Poisons)


The buff and debuff list is long, so I'll leave you to searching UESP for that information. But the ones desperately in need of more options are currently isolated in a single role's responsibility, a single applicable use, or only located in 5-Piece armor sets. I think ESO needs to bring value to more places by spreading out where these buffs and debuffs can be sourced. Maybe start by reworking unused sets and skills to meet this need. Then we can welcome crazy new set ideas like with "Glacial Guardian".

Buff/Debuff (suggestion):

Major Berserk (currently only on two MEDIUM 5-Piece sets and a Craftable Set that requires Break Free; needs ability source, though I honestly don't know where; maybe include with every weapon's ultimate since those are uncommonly used--except 2H and Bow in PvP and maybe Destro in PvE)

Minor Brittle (currently only on Ice Staves; needed on 5-Piece sets or included in Psijic's Elemental Weapon skill)

Major Brutality, Sorcery, Prophecy, Savagery (easily covered with skills and potions; all but uselessly included on Dreugh King Slayer, Rattlecage, Treasure Hunter, and Toothrow respectively, so those sets should either uniquely increase Damage/Crit by x% or we should see these easily-obtainable buffs as (3) bonuses on these sets)

Minor Brutality, Sorcery, Prophecy, Savagery (currently, this may give reason to include one of the four original Classes in the party, but what about when you don't have access to that Class? Again, a (3) bonus would fit nicely with these buffs or tie this into synergies for a smaller duration based on the activator's highest offensive stats. I don't know of anyone using poisons to obtain these--though I'm sure they exist)

Major Courage (currently on two LIGHT 5-Piece sets; needed more places than a healer's responsibility; rework Soul Magic and include this as a passive or supportive ultimate since that skill line gets little attention)

Minor Cowardice (currently on Nightblade Class, Poison, and 5-Piece LIGHT; needed on HEAVY and another reliable source like Vampire)

Major Cowardice (currently on Monster Set and 5-Piece HEAVY; needed on LIGHT or another conditional AoE source)

Major Endurance, Intellect, Fortitude (needed more places than potions; DK Class is only one with non-potion access to Major Endurance)

Minor Evasion (Warden's Class monopoly has got to end; the 10% is so minimal, just grant this for x time if you dodge roll 3 times in succession or brace for 5 seconds straight)

Minor Fortitude (Templar's Class monolopy has got to end; at least make this accessible via Alchemy or as a (3)-Piece bonus somewhere or tie it to overhealing with a Restoration Staff)

Minor/Major Heroism (needs more ability sources than only SnB and Warden respectively; create a new Undaunted Passive or Ultimate to grant this)

Minor Toughness (currently on Warden Class and 5-Piece HEAVY; needed on LIGHT for support and another source like Werewolf)

Minor Uncertainty (currently on 5-Piece LIGHT and Poisons; needed on 5-Piece HEAVY for support and in Alliance War like if it affects enemies that touch your Guard tether or damage the people tethered--so that ability can get some use!)

Major Vulnerability (the upcoming 5-Piece "Turning Tide" is good to avoid Kynmarcher's randomness, but it's still yet another 5-Piece; needs to be included on a Monster Set or something other than HEAVY or replace Mages Guild Might of the Guild--because who is casting a Mages Guild ability every 3 seconds for just Empower? Change to inflicts Major Vulnerability for 3 seconds after every 3 ability casts made within 30 seconds to your next target while in combat)

Other pseudo Buff/Debuffs and suggestions:
Healing Absorption (currently on a 5-Piece MEDIUM, Poison, and in Psijic Guild AoE skill; needs a more reliable single target application so as to not be easily avoided via dodge roll or a HEAVY support)

Unstoppable (currently only applicable to HEAVY armor users and via potion/poison--I'm not counting Immolator Charr--needs 5-Piece or even 3-Piece via PvP, like Potentates)


It's important that players have options for the build they choose. If you want to pull in enemies, great, you have 7 option for that (2 class, 1 guild, 2 (5)-Piece, 1 Monster Set, 1 Weapon Set). If you want Major Expendition, you--for some reason--have 20 options. If you're the wrong class, not progressed in the right guild, not Vampire or Werewolf, can only use 5-Piece armor sets, only have room for a 2-Piece Monster or Weapon Set, or can't craft the right potion or poison, you still deserve other options in how to build your character.

I hope this thread shines a light on the supportive combat elements needed. If older, unused and forgotten sets and skills were reworked to provide at least one of these, the game could blaze ahead with whatever wacky ideas it wants because the basics would be covered.

Thanks for reading. Let me know if I've missed anything.

Eormenric

A couple that I missed:

Minor Intellect (currently on 3 classes only: Templar, Sorcerer, and Warden--the latter two can give to others; need an armor source or attach to a guild such as Mages Guild's Spell Symmetry Morph to also grant Minor Intellect to nearby party members)

Minor Timidity (currently only accessible via poison; needs an ability source such as also being added to Anti-Calvary Caltrops--because ultimates can be seen as a "here come the calvary" moment and this also makes it more applicable in non-mount scenarios; Update 33 is bringing a Monster Set that applies this and that is very welcome but get us an ability source too!)

[After some thought...]
Minor Resolve (currently on Sorcerer--but only active bar--and Nightblade Class, Restoration Staff, and Monster Set if user is healed; need on Potions--which currently only have MAJOR Resolve accessible--and one ability source such as reworking 1H Sword and Shield's "Invasion" because I can't imagine this gets much use, even in PvP due to breaking free. Perhaps renaming it "Interception" and allowing it to target allies which blocks the next attack made within 2 seconds to them and grants allies within 8min Minor Resolve, allowing a different avenue for tank support)

I do hope ZOS keeps track of where buffs and debuffs exist so as to plan for this variety in the future. Until this gets fixed, so many options are pigeonholed.

Ksariyu

Counter-argument, maybe there needs to be less sources. Right now a big part of why every character/group operates the same is that everyone has access to everything all the time. Perhaps it'd be better for them to make buffs more of a bonus for bringing a support player instead of having them be solo-oriented. Just a thought.

Eormenric

Ksariyu wrote: »

Counter-argument, maybe there needs to be less sources. Right now a big part of why every character/group operates the same is that everyone has access to everything all the time. Perhaps it'd be better for them to make buffs more of a bonus for bringing a support player instead of having them be solo-oriented. Just a thought.

I love the idea. Are there more details you wanted to add?

Am I to understand that you're saying: An ice staff-wielding dps can bring something special just like a flame or lightning? Right now, Minor Brittle does that whereas Flame and Lightning are solo oriented. Then again, it's not hard for a tank to provide Minor Brittle... I would again tie whatever support you're referring to into ultimates, since weapon ultimates aren't usually used. I think it'd be too much strain on the servers (currently) if you had a system that, say, has a lightning staff heavy attack 5 times and x buff happens--too many checks.

Honestly, as I wonder more of what that could look like, I just think of Spellcrafting. Hack The Minotaur had an idea that spellcrafting (at least a non-2014 version) would include 3 slots for buffs/debuffs. 2 slots would be required for Major; 1 slot for Minor. A system like that could obviously be meta-sized by every dps running a Major Berserk spell because of how few sources it has, but I hope it could be implemented so that things weren't so cookie-cutter. If, in the above example, Major Berserk existed in several places in the game, dps would be free to pursue other buffs. It all goes back to having options. The less options, the worse a player's choice.

Eormenric

Bumping this for awareness.

I know everyone is currently concerned about immediate upcoming changes, but this lack of versatility has become a steadily growing problem and it will only get worse. The philosophy to push out 3+ sets every 3 months isn't going to help either--and it's a philosophy that needs to end, otherwise we'll have more sets than there are Pokemon... We need new dungeons to instead drop something else, like tokens to be exchanged for different and older gear, or make 1 set per dungeon and have it drop in all armor types (bad idea, but it's a band-aid).

I will be compiling a list of sets that I think no longer serve a purpose in today's game and adjusting their tooltip to better serve an ESO full of options. A great example of this is the change to Crusader as a way to offer Minor Courage. Sure, an ability source would be good, but a non-trial, non-monster helm set is still welcomed.

Necrotech_Master

FYI i think you are still missing buffs/debuffs lol

• major/minor maim
• minor vulnerability

and in case im missing any others here is a list of all currently available buff/debuff (that arent unique set procs)

Eormenric

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FYI i think you are still missing buffs/debuffs lol

• major/minor maim
• minor vulnerability

and in case im missing any others here is a list of all currently available buff/debuff (that arent unique set procs)

As I said in my original post, I've only included the buffs that don't have enough sources or the sources are all the same (e.g. a buff that only appears on a 5-Piece armor set, often for a specific role via armor type).

Maim has ample sources--too many to list. But if you're looking for a neutral source, it comes with Sword and Shield's Low Slash and morphs and the Ice Staff Destructive Clench morph for minor and major respectively. Damage dealers can opt for a frost enchant proc if they're wanting minor maim. Desiring major maim in that same role doesn't really fit with what that role's prioritizes should be. A healer could uncommonly desire major maim access--without taunting the enemy via Destructive Clench--so they can turn to Kyncharcher's Cruelty, Lady Thorn Monster Set, or even the Void Bash Weapon Set, in addition to the Templar Class. It doesn't need any more sources.

Minor Vulnerability is easily achieved from a shock enchant proc, any Sorcerer attack, poison, lightning staff weapon, and several 5-piece sets of varying armor type. While it doesn't have a guaranteed 2-piece source, it's hardly needed. It doesn't need any more sources.

lolo_01b16_ESO

I didn't check all skills, but saw a few things that you missed:
Major Berserk: sorcerer (storm atronarch)
Minor Heroism: potions, multiple armour sets (e.g. shalk exoskeleton), champion points (hope infusion)
Major Heroism: armour set (drakes rush), champion points (last stand)

Eormenric

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I didn't check all skills, but saw a few things that you missed:
Major Berserk: sorcerer (storm atronarch)
Minor Heroism: potions, multiple armour sets (e.g. shalk exoskeleton), champion points (hope infusion)
Major Heroism: armour set (drakes rush), champion points (last stand)

Oh I did miss Storm Atronarch! Good catch. So Sorcerer has a monopoly on that buff via ability. Now I see each class ability monopoly:
DK - Major Endurance (not that great of a monopoly... Perhaps Engulfing Flames is meant to be their true monopoly)
NB - Minor Cowardice
Templar - Minor Fortitude (maybe a worse monopoly than DK)
Sorc - Major Berserk
Warden - Major Heroism
Necro - Major Vulnerability

With Heroism, I chose to only list the ability sources and say that we need different ones--ones that aren't tank-defined. As you list Heroism, you can see that you either need to invest a whole 5 pieces for a minor buff with other, less costly to your build sources, or be a healer--and have your party drop below 50% health. As for Last Stand, I don't know if you tank, but I do, and dropping below 20% health is quite rare (unless you have 45-50k health, then reaching 8-10k is more understandable but most tanks only strive for as high as 40k). Last Stand can only be viable in a few situations, meaning the Major Heroism has very, very little uptime. I think Last Stand is mainly a Cyrodiil/IC thing. I love Drake's Rush, though. I just wish Major Heroism had an ability source that didn't require you to be targeted by projectiles (Shimmering Shield).