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On Vestiges and Immortality

Kesstryl
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Since we know a vestige can die repeatedly and resurrect, yet we know a vestige is not running around in the 4th era, is there a process of fading that will happen at some point to our characters? Would getting our souls back restore mortality to us so that we go through normal aging and dying?
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  • VaranisArano
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    Do we know that the Vestige isn't around in the 4th Era?

    For all we know, the Vestige could be kicking back in Artaeum, yelling at Quaranir that he'd better not let the Dragonborn mess things up in Winterhold and lamenting that "back in my day, Psijics wore blue robes, not banana yellow."

    Now, it's unlikely that the Vestige would ever reappear in a future game, but Bethesda is usually pretty good about not mandating what happens to people's characters. The Nerevarine is only rumored to have gone to Akavir. Skyrim's Sheogorath hints at the Hero of Kvatch, but doesn't force the connection on players who didn't do Oblivion's Shivering Isles.

    I think it's up to you to roleplay how you want.

    I roleplay the my Vestige ages normally for a Dunmer. During her adventuring career, every time she dies, she has the option to pass on and join her ancestors...and she chooses to keep fighting instead.
    Edited by VaranisArano on January 26, 2022 11:00PM
  • Adremal
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    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Since we know a vestige can die repeatedly and resurrect, yet we know a vestige is not running around in the 4th era
    Did I miss something about Haskill dying? Just a reminder that the Vestige we play in ESO is not the only Vestige.
    Chamberlain Haskill says, "I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

    "Sometimes the Master irritates even me. I can't remember why I put up with it, actually."

    Sauce
  • Kesstryl
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    Adremal wrote: »
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Since we know a vestige can die repeatedly and resurrect, yet we know a vestige is not running around in the 4th era
    Did I miss something about Haskill dying? Just a reminder that the Vestige we play in ESO is not the only Vestige.
    Chamberlain Haskill says, "I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

    "Sometimes the Master irritates even me. I can't remember why I put up with it, actually."

    Sauce

    that's just it, I'm roleplaying that all my toons are vestiges, though not all of them are the One Vestige (that's my main character). How do I go about figuring out how to reconcile that they are all around together for millenia since vestiges simply die and come back. I'd find it wierd that my ancestors exist somewhere out there at the same time as my descendants in the solo games. I think Haskill is a special case in that he also Mantled a God so that's not the same thing as the ESO vestige. I wonder if Martin Septim has a vestige somewhere.
    Edited by Kesstryl on January 27, 2022 1:26AM
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  • Adremal
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    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Adremal wrote: »
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Since we know a vestige can die repeatedly and resurrect, yet we know a vestige is not running around in the 4th era
    Did I miss something about Haskill dying? Just a reminder that the Vestige we play in ESO is not the only Vestige.
    Chamberlain Haskill says, "I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

    "Sometimes the Master irritates even me. I can't remember why I put up with it, actually."

    Sauce

    that's just it, I'm roleplaying that all my toons are vestiges, though not all of them are the One Vestige (that's my main character). How do I go about figuring out how to reconcile that they are all around together for millenia since vestiges simply die and come back. I'd find it wierd that my ancestors exist somewhere out there at the same time as my descendants in the solo games. I think Haskill is a special case in that he also Mantled a God so that's not the same thing as the ESO vestige. I wonder if Martin Septim has a vestige somewhere.
    They're all figments of the imagination of the Godhead (aka You the Player).
    Probably not very satisfying but cosmologically correct.
  • Kesstryl
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    Adremal wrote: »
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Adremal wrote: »
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Since we know a vestige can die repeatedly and resurrect, yet we know a vestige is not running around in the 4th era
    Did I miss something about Haskill dying? Just a reminder that the Vestige we play in ESO is not the only Vestige.
    Chamberlain Haskill says, "I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

    "Sometimes the Master irritates even me. I can't remember why I put up with it, actually."

    Sauce

    that's just it, I'm roleplaying that all my toons are vestiges, though not all of them are the One Vestige (that's my main character). How do I go about figuring out how to reconcile that they are all around together for millenia since vestiges simply die and come back. I'd find it wierd that my ancestors exist somewhere out there at the same time as my descendants in the solo games. I think Haskill is a special case in that he also Mantled a God so that's not the same thing as the ESO vestige. I wonder if Martin Septim has a vestige somewhere.
    They're all figments of the imagination of the Godhead (aka You the Player).
    Probably not very satisfying but cosmologically correct.

    One can cannot simply figment away established lore. I originally thought that once we stop the planemeld and get our souls back, we all become mortal again, but that's apparently not the case and is a big wrench in how I've role played the whole history of my characters. At this point do I retcon some of it, or make mods where my solo game chars get visited by their ancestral vestige progenitor who helps them out? This is just getting weirder and weirder.
    Edited by Kesstryl on January 27, 2022 2:23AM
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  • colossalvoids
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    As we're currently stuck in a same year Orsinium was we can't know for sure how time even flows in our era. Anyways we're far from an "end" of the vestige to know anything of that sort, probably end would be as always open to interpretation like both Nerevarine and CoC. I myself just assume we can surely age and finally die, but where the spirit would go next depends on what lore you're assigned to your characters and if you're taking only "official" Beth info or are digesting other writings of MK for example.
  • Adremal
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    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Adremal wrote: »
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Adremal wrote: »
    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Since we know a vestige can die repeatedly and resurrect, yet we know a vestige is not running around in the 4th era
    Did I miss something about Haskill dying? Just a reminder that the Vestige we play in ESO is not the only Vestige.
    Chamberlain Haskill says, "I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

    "Sometimes the Master irritates even me. I can't remember why I put up with it, actually."

    Sauce

    that's just it, I'm roleplaying that all my toons are vestiges, though not all of them are the One Vestige (that's my main character). How do I go about figuring out how to reconcile that they are all around together for millenia since vestiges simply die and come back. I'd find it wierd that my ancestors exist somewhere out there at the same time as my descendants in the solo games. I think Haskill is a special case in that he also Mantled a God so that's not the same thing as the ESO vestige. I wonder if Martin Septim has a vestige somewhere.
    They're all figments of the imagination of the Godhead (aka You the Player).
    Probably not very satisfying but cosmologically correct.

    One can cannot simply figment away established lore. I originally thought that once we stop the planemeld and get our souls back, we all become mortal again, but that's apparently not the case and is a big wrench in how I've role played the whole history of my characters. At this point do I retcon some of it, or make mods where my solo game chars get visited by their ancestral vestige progenitor who helps them out? This is just getting weirder and weirder.

    But that's established lore. Everyone within the Aurbis, be it mortal to god, is a figment of the Godhead's imagination. To achieve CHIM means to become aware of this, and be able to maintain one's own existence as a real independent unit despite being faced with the terrible, undeniable proof of the contrary. This makes attaining (and maintaining) CHIM extremely difficult, so much so that if memory doesn't fail me, only two individuals in the whole Aurbis have been able to achieve CHIM: TIber Septim, who then proceeded to ascend to "proper" godhood (as opposed to "artificial" godhood courtesy of Lorkhan's Heart), and Vivec.
  • Kesstryl
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    But that's established lore. Everyone within the Aurbis, be it mortal to god, is a figment of the Godhead's imagination. To achieve CHIM means to become aware of this, and be able to maintain one's own existence as a real independent unit despite being faced with the terrible, undeniable proof of the contrary. This makes attaining (and maintaining) CHIM extremely difficult, so much so that if memory doesn't fail me, only two individuals in the whole Aurbis have been able to achieve CHIM: TIber Septim, who then proceeded to ascend to "proper" godhood (as opposed to "artificial" godhood courtesy of Lorkhan's Heart), and Vivec.

    I guess I was never into breaking the 4th wall type stuff, it ruins the suspension of disbelief for me. My chars exist within that world and are never aware of me as the puppet master. My characters don't become me, and I am not my characters. They are people living in a world of their own apart from mine. I follow them as a reader partaking in their stories. I am with them only in that I suspend my disbelief for awhile and I lose sense of my own reality and self to enjoy theirs like one watching a movie. They don't cross over to become aware of me being them and thus merging with me or whatever MK was imagining this whole meta theological philosophical game player/ game world to be. The only thing that I can find acceptable that even comes close to that is maybe they all have my soul which is reincarnated with each character I've played in the solo games (which is weird since I've got a family of direct descendants and mothers just can't share the same soul with children at the same time), but in ESO I can't share the same soul with all 14 of my characters existing in the same year. So I can't even use that idea.

    Alrighty then, I just keep using my original understanding that my vestiges regaining their souls gives them their mortality back. It's the only way to make work what I've created. It's true we're not told what fate the Vestige will have so I can leave this open to my own interpretation in my own meta version of Nirn.
    Edited by Kesstryl on January 27, 2022 5:11PM
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  • FabresFour
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    he problem is: although we recover our soul, our body is still made of Azure Plasm, from Chaotic Creatia.

    And technically that's what grants us our immortality. We are not made of flesh and blood. In fact, from what I understand, mixing an Anuinc soul with a vestige body is capable of making vestige even more powerful.
    @FabresFour - 1970 CP
    Director and creator of the unofficial translation of The Elder Scrolls Online into BR-Portuguese.
  • Kesstryl
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    FabresFour wrote: »
    he problem is: although we recover our soul, our body is still made of Azure Plasm, from Chaotic Creatia.

    And technically that's what grants us our immortality. We are not made of flesh and blood. In fact, from what I understand, mixing an Anuinc soul with a vestige body is capable of making vestige even more powerful.

    You are correct, but what if the Anuic soul wants to depart for Aetherius? What if we go through normal aging, and at some point the body, which is copying the aging process of a Nirn born, simply fades at that point and the Azure Plasm goes back to Oblivion while the soul finally goes to its resting place? We know the Soul Shriven still have connection with their souls, even if they lose their minds. If the soul finally leaves altogether, is there anything left for the Azure Plasm to reconstitute around? That's where my thinking is going with how I'm solving this.

    Otherwise if there is lore that can prove this wrong, I'm going to pretend all my other characters never went to Coldharbor and just have my main do it. Maybe the others only dream about my main as if they are sensitive to the heart of Nirn and are having dream visions of The Vestige (this will solve my other toons having done the quests). All my chars exist at the same time, while one is The Vestige, the others are connected to her in some way, and connected to people my descendants will interact with. I made a smokingly sexy nord companion with the Creation Kit for my Skyrim main, and one of my nords in ESO is definitely the ancestor of that companion. I have too many other connections with my other toons like that. Probably half of them are ancestors to my lineage in some way.

    Still researching and getting feedback from Lore masters here. I do miss the Lore forums from the original defunct Bethesda forums, good times back then.
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  • Eporem
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    Kesstryl wrote: »
    Since we know a vestige can die repeatedly and resurrect, yet we know a vestige is not running around in the 4th era, is there a process of fading that will happen at some point to our characters? Would getting our souls back restore mortality to us so that we go through normal aging and dying?

    For me I have always thought when escaping the Wailing Prison, that we restored our mortality, - or the part that ages and dies - our corporeal form - when we collect and absorb the shard of Aetherial magicka that carries the essence of Nirn.
  • Ceridwynne
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    My headcanon is that my vestige is now immortal and basically like a dremora. By absorbing skyshards she has managed to tether herself to nirn so when her body dies her soul stays on nirn to reform. This also allows her to continue using wayshrines.

    I think once this game ends she will be able to get out of the spotlight and do her own thing. I see her being in the background of the other games. Possibly completing some of the quests that the new hero doesn't complete.
  • Werewolfman187
    Well in lore my Vestige is a vampire and part of House Hlaalu (Long story to both of those things) I just say he settled down with Naryu given their dialog together, but I cant really set anything in solid since the games lore is on going and she could die next xpack XD.

    I remember someone saying it would be interesting if in the end the Vestige mantled Molag Bal since the heros of TES always somehow become immortal. ignoring 1 and 2 though.

    Edited by Werewolfman187 on September 30, 2022 2:01AM
  • Kingdaboss123
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    The vestige is not truly immortal as all it takes for a powerful being to destroy there soul like the lich in Graven Deep and a Void mother.
  • Dr_Con
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    Vestiges are theorized to heal Nirn. Once Nirn is healed, they no longer serve a purpose. At that point, it's anyones' guess what happens to them.

    Unless through time travel, there will be no era where one vestige is present. There will always be many. They are part of Nirn, Nirn is made by aedric forces. Vestiges are partly aedric beings, while being mortal with wills of their own, yet reclaimable at any time. The mortal shell they have is a perfect disguise and tool for them.

    Who controls the collective consciousness of Nirn and the actions of all vestiges is the better question we should be asking.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    There are hints in the game. Norianwe, in the Balfiera tutorial, suggests that the Vestige has been sent by the Zero tower. The Vestige is an avatar of the Spirit of Nirn. The Vestige is only mortal in that Lorkhan is the archetype of mortality. The Vestige only appears as an individual because that is the only thing that ordinary mortals (including the player) and other individualized beings such as Dremora can mentally cope with.

    As for what happens to the Vestige, the Prophet tells us - You are a wound in time that should not exist and will not long endure.

    The Vestige is there to do a job, to ensure that things turn out right for mortals, in some cases to ensure that Nirn keeps happening at all. The Vestige only exists in specific places at specific times to deal with specific events (as defined by quests). For example, the Vestige can only go to Southern Elsweyr during the Dragon emergency, not any when else.

    The Vestige is the catalyst that Sotha Sil says they are. Once they have done their catalyzing they effectively cease to exist.
    PC EU
  • BenTSG
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    There are hints in the game. Norianwe, in the Balfiera tutorial, suggests that the Vestige has been sent by the Zero tower. The Vestige is an avatar of the Spirit of Nirn. The Vestige is only mortal in that Lorkhan is the archetype of mortality. The Vestige only appears as an individual because that is the only thing that ordinary mortals (including the player) and other individualized beings such as Dremora can mentally cope with.

    As for what happens to the Vestige, the Prophet tells us - You are a wound in time that should not exist and will not long endure.

    The Vestige is there to do a job, to ensure that things turn out right for mortals, in some cases to ensure that Nirn keeps happening at all. The Vestige only exists in specific places at specific times to deal with specific events (as defined by quests). For example, the Vestige can only go to Southern Elsweyr during the Dragon emergency, not any when else.

    The Vestige is the catalyst that Sotha Sil says they are. Once they have done their catalyzing they effectively cease to exist.

    I feel like the lores a little confusing and maybe all over the place now? Wasn't it originly the case that the Vestige was a normal person until they was captured and sacrificed to Bal? If the tutorial suggests that the Vestige was sent by the Zero Tower (I do not know what this is), and not someone who already existed and had a life, then it seems strange to me it could be captured and sacrifed in the first place.

    Then again my knowledge of lore for the game is quite small, so I could be getting it wrong entirely
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    BenTSG wrote: »
    There are hints in the game. Norianwe, in the Balfiera tutorial, suggests that the Vestige has been sent by the Zero tower. The Vestige is an avatar of the Spirit of Nirn. The Vestige is only mortal in that Lorkhan is the archetype of mortality. The Vestige only appears as an individual because that is the only thing that ordinary mortals (including the player) and other individualized beings such as Dremora can mentally cope with.

    As for what happens to the Vestige, the Prophet tells us - You are a wound in time that should not exist and will not long endure.

    The Vestige is there to do a job, to ensure that things turn out right for mortals, in some cases to ensure that Nirn keeps happening at all. The Vestige only exists in specific places at specific times to deal with specific events (as defined by quests). For example, the Vestige can only go to Southern Elsweyr during the Dragon emergency, not any when else.

    The Vestige is the catalyst that Sotha Sil says they are. Once they have done their catalyzing they effectively cease to exist.

    I feel like the lores a little confusing and maybe all over the place now? Wasn't it originly the case that the Vestige was a normal person until they was captured and sacrificed to Bal? If the tutorial suggests that the Vestige was sent by the Zero Tower (I do not know what this is), and not someone who already existed and had a life, then it seems strange to me it could be captured and sacrifed in the first place.

    Then again my knowledge of lore for the game is quite small, so I could be getting it wrong entirely

    It's all based on hints and suggestions. You can ignore it if you want. The new tutorial can be skipped entirely. There isn't a single, forward-only timeline anymore. Player choice is maximized.

    Being "someone who already existed and had a life" is still an option if the player wants it that way.

    But I do enjoy using lore to make up "just so" stories that explain every little thing that my character experiences in the game.
    PC EU
  • BenTSG
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    BenTSG wrote: »
    There are hints in the game. Norianwe, in the Balfiera tutorial, suggests that the Vestige has been sent by the Zero tower. The Vestige is an avatar of the Spirit of Nirn. The Vestige is only mortal in that Lorkhan is the archetype of mortality. The Vestige only appears as an individual because that is the only thing that ordinary mortals (including the player) and other individualized beings such as Dremora can mentally cope with.

    As for what happens to the Vestige, the Prophet tells us - You are a wound in time that should not exist and will not long endure.

    The Vestige is there to do a job, to ensure that things turn out right for mortals, in some cases to ensure that Nirn keeps happening at all. The Vestige only exists in specific places at specific times to deal with specific events (as defined by quests). For example, the Vestige can only go to Southern Elsweyr during the Dragon emergency, not any when else.

    The Vestige is the catalyst that Sotha Sil says they are. Once they have done their catalyzing they effectively cease to exist.

    I feel like the lores a little confusing and maybe all over the place now? Wasn't it originly the case that the Vestige was a normal person until they was captured and sacrificed to Bal? If the tutorial suggests that the Vestige was sent by the Zero Tower (I do not know what this is), and not someone who already existed and had a life, then it seems strange to me it could be captured and sacrifed in the first place.

    Then again my knowledge of lore for the game is quite small, so I could be getting it wrong entirely

    It's all based on hints and suggestions. You can ignore it if you want. The new tutorial can be skipped entirely. There isn't a single, forward-only timeline anymore. Player choice is maximized.

    Being "someone who already existed and had a life" is still an option if the player wants it that way.

    But I do enjoy using lore to make up "just so" stories that explain every little thing that my character experiences in the game.

    That's fair. I sort of wish they handled the timeline a little better instead of being all over the place and broken depending on your order of play. In any case Ive been playing since '16 so I am a lot more familiar with the whole 'Being captured' thing then what this new tutorial seems to suggest. I did play through it once to see what it was but I guess I missed the clues, but my personal headcannon for it is the vestige was around before being sacraficed. Even then though, I more treat all my characters as their own people in the world with their own stories and stuff, and not as Vestiges outside of doing quests really
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