Reachmen… Are there any ‘good’ clans?

MindOfTheSwarm

Just seems that throughout history for the most part they have been pretty much a thorn in the side of everyone else. But then I seem to remember some of the older clans not being so hostile to outsiders and even trading with them. So that’s the question, any Reachmen and/or clans actually noteworthy of being ‘good’. If not, why after 4 ages haven’t they been dealt with?

Jim_Pipp

We are all the hero of our own story. The reason Reachman seem like baddies is because they have mainly been in opposition to our main character when we see the, and culturally they are very distinct.

In the 40 years before ESO the Reachman were the longhouse emperors of Cyrodil, and did some things that were good for the Empire, like annexing Riverhold and Orcrest in Northern Elsweyr, although from the perspective of the Khajiit that wasn't so good. They also legalised Daedra Worship because that is their religion, but from the perspective of most Imperials that might be wrong.

From their perspective, they are heroically trying to hold onto their homeland and way of life, and no doubt they see most outsiders as evil because we kill them by the hundreds!

Harvokaan

Reachman are not good or bad tbh. Why do you think of them as "evil""?
They have many enemies so they are forced to be brutal in combat. They tried to conquer other lands but all races of tamriel is doing the same. They worship daedra but it is popular among bretons and dunmers. They even had their own emperor dynasty.
I would say they are good if you are a friend of the Reach and savage animals if you are the enemy. you won't find many "holy paladin" type of characters among them but their history and relation with neighbours is a reason, not because they are bad by nature.
The most "lawful good" would be probably Wayward Guardians. More good then neutral would be also Spiritblood, Hillhunter and probably Winterborn (2nd era winterborns but they are our enemies in Wrothgar).

Danikat

I agree with @Jim_Pipp. They're not evil, they're just a different culture to their neighbours. They're no worse than the different Alliances or the orcs when they're at war with the bretons, or the dunmer attacking and enslaving argonians or any other clashing cultures you can think of in Tamriel.

Wiping them out entirely would firstly be a huge military effort with minimal benefit and would likely be seen as an evil act in itself which would make whichever race or nation started it a target for their neighbours - because if they're willing to wipe out one culture for being too different and aggressive how long will it be before they turn on another, and another? After all everyone in Tamriel has their armies and wars (and bandits and raiders) and everyone has their own issues with racism of one form or another.

They have at various times been assimilated into the wider culture, like when the Longhouse Emperors ruled Cyrodiil, or when Tiber Septim subjugated the entire continent in one way or another. Most of the time some or all of the clans go their own way, but then they're usually fragmented enough that they're not a major threat.

MindOfTheSwarm

Danikat wrote: »

I agree with @Jim_Pipp. They're not evil, they're just a different culture to their neighbours. They're no worse than the different Alliances or the orcs when they're at war with the bretons, or the dunmer attacking and enslaving argonians or any other clashing cultures you can think of in Tamriel.

Wiping them out entirely would firstly be a huge military effort with minimal benefit and would likely be seen as an evil act in itself which would make whichever race or nation started it a target for their neighbours - because if they're willing to wipe out one culture for being too different and aggressive how long will it be before they turn on another, and another? After all everyone in Tamriel has their armies and wars (and bandits and raiders) and everyone has their own issues with racism of one form or another.

They have at various times been assimilated into the wider culture, like when the Longhouse Emperors ruled Cyrodiil, or when Tiber Septim subjugated the entire continent in one way or another. Most of the time some or all of the clans go their own way, but then they're usually fragmented enough that they're not a major threat.

I didn’t mean wiping out. I meant some sort of treaty or pact.

VaranisArano

Have you played the Markarth DLC yet? Because we ally with a Reachmen clan...

Highly recommend the Markarth DLC if you want a more nuanced take on Reachmen culture.

In addition, even in Skyrim you have the option to ally with Madanach, and then his clan in friendly to you.

Danikat

In that case the simple answer is it has happened at times, but as with all political allegiances in Tamriel it doesn't last forever and except when the entire continent is unified by an empire it's unlikely to be recognised by everyone. For example they might have a peace treaty with Wrothgar, but attack bretons and nords, so whether they're allies or enemies will depend on which side you're on.

They're also not a single unified group, so it's possible for them to be both at the same time. That's why the hostile Reachmen in Skyrim are called Forsworn, to distinguish them from the others who joined with the nords living in The Reach (who in-game are largely indistinguishable from the nords).

MindOfTheSwarm

My understanding is that Reachmen are considered there own race no?

ealdwin

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

My understanding is that Reachmen are considered there own race no?

Yes, they are their own race. However, they share common ancestors with the Bretons (Nedic tribes living in what is now High Rock; as well as some elven ancestry?). The differences in geography and history led to the two emerging as two different races with vastly different cultures. However, due to that similarity both Bethesda and ZOS have tended to use the Breton models for both races. If you delve into Skyrim's game files, Ainethach is categorized as a Breton, though dialogue and in game context reveals that he is in actuality a Reachman. Neither Breton nor Reachmen see each other as kin and both agree that the Reachmen are a distinct race from the Bretons.

Parasaurolophus

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

My understanding is that Reachmen are considered there own race no?

No. They are mostly just wild bretons or just descendants of the nedes. However, they are also considered half-breeds, in the family of many there are even orcs. In eso, in general, among the richmans there are imperials, nords and redguards. It seems that being a richman does not have to be a particular race.
Also I don't like the concept of "race". There are only 3 races in Tamriel, they are mers, humans and argonians.

ealdwin

To the question of "good clans", the answer is highly likely yes. The key to understanding the Reachfolk is that they as a race are divided into a vast number of clans and tribes without a unified culture or society across those tribes. There are similarities, yes, but no guarantees regarding their culture. Some tribes are more nomadic, some more permanent, some more welcoming, some more isolated. Even those spirits that each clan chooses to venerate, worship, or bargain with will greatly affect how that tribe acts and is therefore perceived.

Daedra, which the Reachmen tend to deal with, are by nature selfish. They will therefore require a deal or bargain in exchange for the power they offer. The terms of that deal or the payment in the bargain varies with each Daedra. Daedra such as Nocturnal, Meridia, and Sanguine have less vile spheres, and as such the terms of their agreements may be less violent or ugly. Other Daedra such as Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, or Namira are more cruel and revolting in their spheres and so will have more repugnant or violent requests in exchange for more power. Which entities a Reachman tribe interacts with will have an impact on their culture and interaction with the world around them.

Of course, there are also Reachfolk that don't live in tribes in the hills and mountains, much like not every Argonian lives in the deep swamps of Argonia. These Reachfolk may or may not hold onto the beliefs their ancestors did. In TES V, not every Reachman is a member of the Forsworn or even has a painted face. Some are just simple business-folk and villagers trying to live their lives. Also consider that those tribes who are more isolated, may simply never be seen. There may be perfectly neutral or good clans just going about their way without committing any atrocities, and because they never make problems or noise, they just pass on by unseen. Especially when in the main series and ESO, interactions are usually initiated by "Help we're in trouble!" or "Hi, we're causing trouble!".

History and outside opinions and interactions also play a part. The Forsworn in TES V are violent, yes, and make deals with the Hagravens that require human sacrifice and other repugnant deeds, yes. But they are also fueled on by the many, many years of persecution and loss of land they have suffered at the hands of the Nords. The Forsworn of the 4th Era fight with the memory of the Markarth Incident and the suffering and death that came at the hands of the Nords under Ulfric's command in their minds and on their tongues. That does not make their banditry and murder acceptable or "good". But, it does illustrate their mindset and lend an explanation for why they may feel the need to resort to those means.

So, yes, there are very likely good tribes. The Reachfolk are not a monolith by any means, and the individual culture and society of each tribe and clan will differ. Different pantheons and interactions/history with others will play significant parts in determining those.

Gederic

The Markarth DLC was greatly appreciated. Finally getting to see Reachmen in the Reach that they own and expanding on their lore and clans was hugely appreciated.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

My understanding is that Reachmen are considered there own race no?

No. They are mostly just wild bretons or just descendants of the nedes. However, they are also considered half-breeds, in the family of many there are even orcs. In eso, in general, among the richmans there are imperials, nords and redguards. It seems that being a richman does not have to be a particular race.
Also I don't like the concept of "race". There are only 3 races in Tamriel, they are mers, humans and argonians.

No...

As ealdwin said Bretons and Reachmen do not consider themselves kin. A Nord, Redguard, or Imperial living in the Reach is not considered a Reachman. Imperials, Bretons, and Reachman have a Nedic background but at this point are far split off, not to mention that Breton's are half breeds... Redguards are entirely separate and hailing originally from Yokuda and Nords are also entirely separate and hailing from Atmora. Regardless of how you feel all the peoples of Tamriel are considered their own distinct race.

Parasaurolophus

Gederic wrote: »

As ealdwin said Bretons and Reachmen do not consider themselves kin.

The Bretons and Richmans are the descendants of the Nedic who lived in High Rock and Skyrim. If the Bretons are Nedes in which elven blood was mixed, then the Richmans mixed with many other peoples and races too.

Gederic wrote: »

. A Nord, Redguard, or Imperial living in the Reach is not considered a Reachman. Imperials, Bretons, and Reachman have a Nedic background but at this point are far split off, not to mention that Breton's are half breeds...

As the Richman continue to mix with other races, it makes sense that they would have humans and half-elves more like other races.

Gederic wrote: »

Regardless of how you feel all the peoples of Tamriel are considered their own distinct race.

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Hexvaldr

I actually have three characters who I roleplay as Reachfolk. One of them, Calder Hexhowler, I made up a clan name for. Another is from the Dreadhorn clan, and the third is from the Shadefeather clan. I really think the notion of evil and Reachfolk is very subjective and relative, as we see in Markarth DLC.

_Zathras_

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

We are all the hero of our own story. The reason Reachman seem like baddies is because they have mainly been in opposition to our main character when we see the, and culturally they are very distinct.

In the 40 years before ESO the Reachman were the longhouse emperors of Cyrodil, and did some things that were good for the Empire, like annexing Riverhold and Orcrest in Northern Elsweyr, although from the perspective of the Khajiit that wasn't so good. They also legalised Daedra Worship because that is their religion, but from the perspective of most Imperials that might be wrong.

From their perspective, they are heroically trying to hold onto their homeland and way of life, and no doubt they see most outsiders as evil because we kill them by the hundreds!

I smell a Reachman.

Gederic

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Why not? The real world has a plethora of different races and yet we are all still of the human species. The lore considers them all different races, not sure what else to tell you. You could consider elves and humans different species but that doesn't mean they wouldn't further divide into their individual races like Altmer and Bosmer. And apart from the Breton race, which are halfbreeds between Altmer and Nede, the lore also chose to say that any other "halfbreeds" almost always take entirely after their mother thus essentially nixing the possibility of any other halfbreed/ racial mixing and keeping the other races almost purely of that race. Inconsistent sure. But thats what it says.

Jaimeh

The Vestige made friends with many Reachfolk clans through the Markarth main quest and side quests, and beause of the events that happened there, even a delegation visited from western Skyrim in the end, and a peace agreement was forged.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Nibenese and Colovians are both imperial. It's like Ashlanders and other dunmers. The are the same race.

And yes they are. Nords, redguards, imperials etc are not the same. Just as the races of mer are not the same.

ᴬˡˢᵒ, ᶦᵗ'ˢ ʳᵉᵃᶜʰᵐᵉⁿ/ʳᵉᵃᶜʰᶠᵒˡᵏ, ⁿᵒᵗ ʳᶦᶜʰᵐᵃⁿˢ.

As for OP's question. Have you done Markarth DLC? The answer to your question is answered constantly there. Reachmen are just like any other group of people on Tamriel. Some are good, some are bad, and people's opinion varies from group to group. According to redguards and bretons, orcs are often evil savages, but we know that's not true. Same goes for dunmer towards argonians and many others.

Saying all Reachmen are hostile and "not good" that does nothing but attack others is just a Tamriel bias based on ignorance of culture and racism. We see in the Reach and other places that many of them get along fine and trade with outsiders as long as they are treated fair. Which they rarely are.

Parasaurolophus

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Nibenese and Colovians are both imperial. It's like Ashlanders and other dunmers. The are the same race.

And yes they are. Nords, redguards, imperials etc are not the same. Just as the races of mer are not the same.

The Nibenians and Colovians are the descendants of various Nedic tribes. And the Nords and the Imperials cannot possibly be two different races. More like two different nations.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Nibenese and Colovians are both imperial. It's like Ashlanders and other dunmers. The are the same race.

And yes they are. Nords, redguards, imperials etc are not the same. Just as the races of mer are not the same.

The Nibenians and Colovians are the descendants of various Nedic tribes. And the Nords and the Imperials cannot possibly be two different races. More like two different nations.

Imperials descend from various Nedic tribes and Nords from Atmorans. They are not the same.

If they are the same then we can say that all races of man and mer are the same because they all descend from the Ehlnofey.

MindOfTheSwarm

Personally I don’t think Bretons, Nords or Redguards qualify as different races. Elves an

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Nibenese and Colovians are both imperial. It's like Ashlanders and other dunmers. The are the same race.

And yes they are. Nords, redguards, imperials etc are not the same. Just as the races of mer are not the same.

ᴬˡˢᵒ, ᶦᵗ'ˢ ʳᵉᵃᶜʰᵐᵉⁿ/ʳᵉᵃᶜʰᶠᵒˡᵏ, ⁿᵒᵗ ʳᶦᶜʰᵐᵃⁿˢ.

As for OP's question. Have you done Markarth DLC? The answer to your question is answered constantly there. Reachmen are just like any other group of people on Tamriel. Some are good, some are bad, and people's opinion varies from group to group. According to redguards and bretons, orcs are often evil savages, but we know that's not true. Same goes for dunmer towards argonians and many others.

Saying all Reachmen are hostile and "not good" that does nothing but attack others is just a Tamriel bias based on ignorance of culture and racism. We see in the Reach and other places that many of them get along fine and trade with outsiders as long as they are treated fair. Which they rarely are.

I think my main point was this. No I have not done Markarth yet as I thought Greymoor was just ok. However, I have heard good things and will give it a go over the next couple of days.

MindOfTheSwarm

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Nibenese and Colovians are both imperial. It's like Ashlanders and other dunmers. The are the same race.

And yes they are. Nords, redguards, imperials etc are not the same. Just as the races of mer are not the same.

The Nibenians and Colovians are the descendants of various Nedic tribes. And the Nords and the Imperials cannot possibly be two different races. More like two different nations.

Imperials descend from various Nedic tribes and Nords from Atmorans. They are not the same.

If they are the same then we can say that all races of man and mer are the same because they all descend from the Ehlnofey.

I think this is the point though. Technically they are all the same and the racial prejudice that exists does nothing but hinder progress and is the root cause of most conflicts in the world outside of Daedric machinations.
If all the people of Nirn viewed themselves as one race… there would be significantly less conflict and it would be hard for Daedra to manipulate people against each other.

This thread is getting a little deep on its philosophy IMO. I merely wanted an example of Reachmen serving as allies. Markarth awaits.

Fennwitty

The only good Reachman is a dead Reachman ...

Gederic

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Personally I don’t think Bretons, Nords or Redguards qualify as different races. Elves an

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It just can't be. Humans cannot be of different races like elves and goblins. Colovians and Nibenese are not different races.

Nibenese and Colovians are both imperial. It's like Ashlanders and other dunmers. The are the same race.

And yes they are. Nords, redguards, imperials etc are not the same. Just as the races of mer are not the same.

ᴬˡˢᵒ, ᶦᵗ'ˢ ʳᵉᵃᶜʰᵐᵉⁿ/ʳᵉᵃᶜʰᶠᵒˡᵏ, ⁿᵒᵗ ʳᶦᶜʰᵐᵃⁿˢ.

As for OP's question. Have you done Markarth DLC? The answer to your question is answered constantly there. Reachmen are just like any other group of people on Tamriel. Some are good, some are bad, and people's opinion varies from group to group. According to redguards and bretons, orcs are often evil savages, but we know that's not true. Same goes for dunmer towards argonians and many others.

Saying all Reachmen are hostile and "not good" that does nothing but attack others is just a Tamriel bias based on ignorance of culture and racism. We see in the Reach and other places that many of them get along fine and trade with outsiders as long as they are treated fair. Which they rarely are.

I think my main point was this. No I have not done Markarth yet as I thought Greymoor was just ok. However, I have heard good things and will give it a go over the next couple of days.

Greymoor was very very meh to me. Markarth is leagues better

RaddlemanNumber7

Fennwitty wrote: »

The only good Reachman is a dead Reachman ...

Yes. Briarhearts are the best of them

Supreme_Atromancer

Tamriel is considered an "Arena" due to the omnipresent strife and warfare. All races have conflicts with other races. For every conflict you hear about in ESO, and for all the alliances we see, there's dozens of other situations where those allies have been terrible enemies, and possibly dozens of times where those enemies have been aligned. Nords and Dunmer had the bloodiest of histories, as did the Dunmer with the Argonians. Khajiit and Bosmer have been hated enemies many times. The Bosmer rose up under Camoran and rampaged across Tamriel before being put down by the Bretons. Imperials fight with *everyone*. Don't let "the alliances" fool you. The period of time during which ESO set is called "The Interregnum" and was described as a period of turmoil during which new alliances were formed and broken, formed, then broken again.

Before Morrowind, Dunmer were basically dnd Drow. That title gave us perspective. In the lore, Nords were super aggressive raiders, Skyrim gave us a far more sympathetic view. Conversely, in that very same title, High Elves became enemy number one.

Its all perspective.

Regarding Daedra worship, I just want to make out the observation that the two peoples most associated with it IN THIS DAY, are the Reachmen and the Dunmer. Both live in marginal, harsh, dangerous lands where day-to-day survival is not guaranteed. Entities which represent self actualisation, instinct, domination, cunning and aggression probably have a lot more to teach than the soft, out-of-touch divines.

Ratzkifal

On the subtopic of whether Reachmen are their own separate race or not, it's pretty clear that they are indistinguishable from Bretons by anything but their mannerisms and language - things you learn as opposed to things you are born with. We have several quests where Reachmen have seamlessly blended into Breton society only to later betray the Bretons for their Reachkin. In Skyrim we've also seen instances of regular Bretons being discriminated against due to being mistaken for Reachmen by the Nords.
That tells me that the Reachmen and Bretons are different people of the same race, kind of like the Skaal and mainland Nords. It's definitely more than just a mechanical limitation as it's clearly intentional - as for the mytho-historic reasons why that is, one can only speculate.

RedTalon

None are evil in the end they just have a different set of beliefs, gods and so on

Hexvaldr

I have created an RP/social guild for players who enjoy playing Reachfolk characters. Since our numbers are few, I think it's even more important that we band together to explore the fascinating history and culture of this unique people. To join, send me an in-game mail to @HexValdr. Thank you!