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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/653550/

Can Vestiges have children with mortals or each other?

Kesstryl
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Before I fully understood what we as the Vestige is, I had role played all my characters as being ancestors that will eventually converge into my single player TES lineage. Now that I know what a Vestige is, is this even possible?
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  • Elsonso
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    I assume that all of my vestiges are fertile. :sunglasses:

    However, none of their descendants have been seen in the 3rd Era, so I can't be sure. :smile:
    Edited by Elsonso on January 22, 2022 1:05AM
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  • VaranisArano
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    Easy possibility: they had kids before they died and had their body replaced with Chaos Creatia

    Another possibility: daedra can procreate with mortals, as in the case of Daedric Princes having demiprinces, so there's nothing outright saying that a being of Chaos Creatia can't have children. There's not many examples, but then, there's very very few Daedra who are interested in human relationships anyway. It's not impossible that the Vestige can still procreate.

    Another possibility: Once the main quest is finished and we've restored our soul, there's nothing to suggest that our body/mind decays as it would have in a soulless state. So it might be completely fine to have kids.


    And of course, there's always this option: A Wizard Did It.
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt

    The Vestige has helped a ton of skilled wizards, Daedric Princes, priests of the Divines, and even three living gods. So if you want to roleplay that one of them helps out, go for it!
  • Kesstryl
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    So any offspring from a vestige and a mortal would be half Daedric? How about two vestiges? Fully Daedric but mortal looking? The whole idea of having an Anuic soul (once you get it back) in a Daedric body is very interesting. Would offspring have a soul comprised of both Anuic and Daedric? I'm thinking not because the soul is still Anuic even though the body is Daedric, the offspring would still have a fully Anuic soul.
    Edited by Kesstryl on January 22, 2022 11:44PM
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  • VaranisArano
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    Kesstryl wrote: »
    So any offspring from a vestige and a mortal would be half Daedric? How about two vestiges? Fully Daedric but mortal looking? The whole idea of having an Anuic soul (once you get it back) in a Daedric body is very interesting. Would offspring have a soul comprised of both Anuic and Daedric? I'm thinking not because the soul is still Anuic even though the body is Daedric, the offspring would still have a fully Anuic soul.

    Well, though our body is made of Chaos Creatia, we aren't Daedric. The actual Daedra refer to us as mortals, anti-daedra wards don't work on us, and the Stricture in Fargrave likewise treats us as mortal.

    So I figure that's a pretty good indication that aside from any weirdness with the Vestige's body being able to reform after death, any kids would effectively have two mortal parents as far as souls and magical effects like daedra-binding wards go.

    Here's the main lore source I'm referring to, though as with all lorebooks, the author may or may not be fully correct. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm
  • Amottica
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    There is only one vestige so there are not two vestiges which eliminate the chance they can mate with each other.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    I would say this is entirely up to individual players. Interpret lore how you want, write your characters' stories as you want.

    So far I have made the assumption that my characters are sterile, and know it. It's a significant part of their personal tragedy. Something else that Molag Bal took from them. Something else they sacrificed to become the great heroes that they are.
    PC EU
  • Kesstryl
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    Amottica wrote: »
    There is only one vestige so there are not two vestiges which eliminate the chance they can mate with each other.

    That's a technicality that ZOS messed up on in an MMO game. In my personal version, others (some of my alts) came along with my main back to Nirn. I have different chars that do different quests (and not all the quests in the entire game, only the ones that I consider part of that toon's story) and RP that the others I do the same quest on are dreaming of the adventures of that one char's story through their connection from being in Coldharbor. It's definitely not a cannon fix, but I'm content with it, and it makes it so only one char has that particular part of the story and not all of them. Only my main did the Main Quest and was the One Vestige, but the other vestiges who came back with her dreamed of the Main Quest as she went through it, and she dreams of their adventures in their own parts of Tamriel. I'm still RPing many of my alts being part of the lineage of my solo TES chars, but not all of my toons have done the Main Quest or even started it. I have an overactive imagination, but that's what makes questing on alts fun and logical for me.
    Edited by Kesstryl on January 23, 2022 1:51PM
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  • VaranisArano
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    Amottica wrote: »
    There is only one vestige so there are not two vestiges which eliminate the chance they can mate with each other.

    Well, it depends on how you want to roleplay it. There's only one Vestige who helped the Prophet and thus gets called the Vestige. ZOS seems to be playing into the idea that you are a Paragon type individual mentioned in the Chaos Creatia book with the new Balfiera tutorial.


    But back when I started playing, Varanis Arano was heavily implied to be one of many people that Lyris helped escape Coldharbor except that her escape attempt got interrupted by the Prophet.

    Prior to Update 6, Lyris and her soul-shriven ally Er-Jassen helped you and a bunch of other prisoners get out of the tutorial level. In some of his removed dialogue, he explains a different take on the situation:

    "We are the vestiges of people whose souls were stolen by … The God of Schemes. I dare not utter his true name in this place."

    Combine this with the Prophet's instructions to bolster our connection to Artherius by opposing Molag Bal and using Skyshards, it seems very likely to me that any soul-shriven who was rescued from Coldharbor and still in good enough shape to regain their connection to Aetherius might last long enough for The (Hero) Vestige to defeat Molag Bal and release the souls he claimed after the Soulburst.


    Since I started playing long before the current tutorials, I think it's important that we don't retcon the played experience of older players. There's one (Hero) Vestige in gameplay, since the Main Quest is a solo experience. But there's still room for there to be lots of soul-shriven vestiges who escaped Coldharbor, surviving in Tamriel until the Vestige beats Molag Bal, and afterwards, carrying on like usual.

    After all, that was the original explanation for why you see other players dying and reviving: like you, they are soul-shriven. They just aren't the Hero that the Prophet calls The Vestige.
  • Kesstryl
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    Amottica wrote: »
    There is only one vestige so there are not two vestiges which eliminate the chance they can mate with each other.

    Well, it depends on how you want to roleplay it. There's only one Vestige who helped the Prophet and thus gets called the Vestige. ZOS seems to be playing into the idea that you are a Paragon type individual mentioned in the Chaos Creatia book with the new Balfiera tutorial.


    But back when I started playing, Varanis Arano was heavily implied to be one of many people that Lyris helped escape Coldharbor except that her escape attempt got interrupted by the Prophet.

    Prior to Update 6, Lyris and her soul-shriven ally Er-Jassen helped you and a bunch of other prisoners get out of the tutorial level. In some of his removed dialogue, he explains a different take on the situation:

    "We are the vestiges of people whose souls were stolen by … The God of Schemes. I dare not utter his true name in this place."

    Combine this with the Prophet's instructions to bolster our connection to Artherius by opposing Molag Bal and using Skyshards, it seems very likely to me that any soul-shriven who was rescued from Coldharbor and still in good enough shape to regain their connection to Aetherius might last long enough for The (Hero) Vestige to defeat Molag Bal and release the souls he claimed after the Soulburst.


    Since I started playing long before the current tutorials, I think it's important that we don't retcon the played experience of older players. There's one (Hero) Vestige in gameplay, since the Main Quest is a solo experience. But there's still room for there to be lots of soul-shriven vestiges who escaped Coldharbor, surviving in Tamriel until the Vestige beats Molag Bal, and afterwards, carrying on like usual.

    After all, that was the original explanation for why you see other players dying and reviving: like you, they are soul-shriven. They just aren't the Hero that the Prophet calls The Vestige.

    Thanks for helping me to remember that. That's probably the reason I started out with the idea of other vestiges coming along with my main in the first place.
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  • Elsonso
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    Since I started playing long before the current tutorials, I think it's important that we don't retcon the played experience of older players. There's one (Hero) Vestige in gameplay, since the Main Quest is a solo experience. But there's still room for there to be lots of soul-shriven vestiges who escaped Coldharbor, surviving in Tamriel until the Vestige beats Molag Bal, and afterwards, carrying on like usual.

    I never have considered that any of my characters, created at any time in the last eight years, were the same thing as the soul shriven that we see in Molag Bal's prison and various other places where he has influence. In some significant manner, my character is different and apart from them. For the same reason, I have never believed that any of my characters, as they stand on Tamriel, were some sort of daedra.

    Until Balferia, the exact nature of my characters was a mystery. They are mortal, but can be resurrected easily, even before our soul is removed and before even visiting Coldharbour. No daedra considers my characters to be daedric and we can do things that daedra are prohibited or blocked from doing. It turns out that there is nothing special about Coldharbour and the experience in the Wailing Prison. It is just an event that has happened, or maybe never happened.

    Balferia strengthened the idea that we are aedric in nature, placed on Nirn by an Aedra. No retcon needed. This is why Akatosh is so willing to help us escape from the Wailing Prison and why we have abilities unique among the inhabitants of Nirn.

    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
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    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • VaranisArano
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Since I started playing long before the current tutorials, I think it's important that we don't retcon the played experience of older players. There's one (Hero) Vestige in gameplay, since the Main Quest is a solo experience. But there's still room for there to be lots of soul-shriven vestiges who escaped Coldharbor, surviving in Tamriel until the Vestige beats Molag Bal, and afterwards, carrying on like usual.

    I never have considered that any of my characters, created at any time in the last eight years, were the same thing as the soul shriven that we see in Molag Bal's prison and various other places where he has influence. In some significant manner, my character is different and apart from them. For the same reason, I have never believed that any of my characters, as they stand on Tamriel, were some sort of daedra.

    Until Balferia, the exact nature of my characters was a mystery. They are mortal, but can be resurrected easily, even before our soul is removed and before even visiting Coldharbour. No daedra considers my characters to be daedric and we can do things that daedra are prohibited or blocked from doing. It turns out that there is nothing special about Coldharbour and the experience in the Wailing Prison. It is just an event that has happened, or maybe never happened.

    Balferia strengthened the idea that we are aedric in nature, placed on Nirn by an Aedra. No retcon needed. This is why Akatosh is so willing to help us escape from the Wailing Prison and why we have abilities unique among the inhabitants of Nirn.

    Who's this "we" you are talking about?

    Sorry if I sound snippy, but it's a bit of a pet peeve when players try to dictate my characters' stories and backgrounds to me by saying I have to accept the new content as part of their story.

    Varanis Arano never did Balfiera. She never met the Mysterious Figure before Coldharbor. She never will. Those people and places are not a part of her story. She has a completely different backstory to how she got into Coldharbor at the start of ESO.

    Those quests are a part of the lore, and perhaps they are a part of the story of "The Vestige", that faceless, raceless ur-character amalgamated from every character created by every player in ESO that will be remembered (or not) in future games (similar to the Champion of Cyrodiil or the Nerevarine.)

    But this faceless, raceless "Vestige" is not my characters, who existed before the Balfiera tutorial and who may not agree that with a lorebook that they were placed on Nirn by an Aedra. Certainly, Varanis Arano has seen nothing yet to prove such a supposition that she can't otherwise explain. Perhaps, any new character I create will feel differently, since they will experience the new content.

    So I guess my appeal is that we have some respect for roleplaying. We can talk about the new player experience on Balfiera, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of older players who did the Main Quest before Update 6 or One Tamriel. There is more gray area here about the nature of the soul-shriven, heroic Vestige than the newer content suggests. Even though ZOS has tried its best to retcon out those shades of gray due to their non-chronological gameplay choices, players still remember and roleplay that they exist. They are not wrong to do so, any more than players are wrong to embrace the revelations of Balfiera if it fits their story.

    I like your ideas for your characters. But they are your characters, so you can roleplay them as you like.
  • Aurelia
    Aurelia
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Since I started playing long before the current tutorials, I think it's important that we don't retcon the played experience of older players. There's one (Hero) Vestige in gameplay, since the Main Quest is a solo experience. But there's still room for there to be lots of soul-shriven vestiges who escaped Coldharbor, surviving in Tamriel until the Vestige beats Molag Bal, and afterwards, carrying on like usual.

    I never have considered that any of my characters, created at any time in the last eight years, were the same thing as the soul shriven that we see in Molag Bal's prison and various other places where he has influence. In some significant manner, my character is different and apart from them. For the same reason, I have never believed that any of my characters, as they stand on Tamriel, were some sort of daedra.

    Until Balferia, the exact nature of my characters was a mystery. They are mortal, but can be resurrected easily, even before our soul is removed and before even visiting Coldharbour. No daedra considers my characters to be daedric and we can do things that daedra are prohibited or blocked from doing. It turns out that there is nothing special about Coldharbour and the experience in the Wailing Prison. It is just an event that has happened, or maybe never happened.

    Balferia strengthened the idea that we are aedric in nature, placed on Nirn by an Aedra. No retcon needed. This is why Akatosh is so willing to help us escape from the Wailing Prison and why we have abilities unique among the inhabitants of Nirn.

    Who's this "we" you are talking about?

    Sorry if I sound snippy, but it's a bit of a pet peeve when players try to dictate my characters' stories and backgrounds to me by saying I have to accept the new content as part of their story.

    Varanis Arano never did Balfiera. She never met the Mysterious Figure before Coldharbor. She never will. Those people and places are not a part of her story. She has a completely different backstory to how she got into Coldharbor at the start of ESO.

    Those quests are a part of the lore, and perhaps they are a part of the story of "The Vestige", that faceless, raceless ur-character amalgamated from every character created by every player in ESO that will be remembered (or not) in future games (similar to the Champion of Cyrodiil or the Nerevarine.)

    But this faceless, raceless "Vestige" is not my characters, who existed before the Balfiera tutorial and who may not agree that with a lorebook that they were placed on Nirn by an Aedra. Certainly, Varanis Arano has seen nothing yet to prove such a supposition that she can't otherwise explain. Perhaps, any new character I create will feel differently, since they will experience the new content.

    So I guess my appeal is that we have some respect for roleplaying. We can talk about the new player experience on Balfiera, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of older players who did the Main Quest before Update 6 or One Tamriel. There is more gray area here about the nature of the soul-shriven, heroic Vestige than the newer content suggests. Even though ZOS has tried its best to retcon out those shades of gray due to their non-chronological gameplay choices, players still remember and roleplay that they exist. They are not wrong to do so, any more than players are wrong to embrace the revelations of Balfiera if it fits their story.

    I like your ideas for your characters. But they are your characters, so you can roleplay them as you like.

    Pretty sure the person's comment wasn't an attempt to invalidate *your* roleplaying.
  • VaranisArano
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    Aurelia wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    Since I started playing long before the current tutorials, I think it's important that we don't retcon the played experience of older players. There's one (Hero) Vestige in gameplay, since the Main Quest is a solo experience. But there's still room for there to be lots of soul-shriven vestiges who escaped Coldharbor, surviving in Tamriel until the Vestige beats Molag Bal, and afterwards, carrying on like usual.

    I never have considered that any of my characters, created at any time in the last eight years, were the same thing as the soul shriven that we see in Molag Bal's prison and various other places where he has influence. In some significant manner, my character is different and apart from them. For the same reason, I have never believed that any of my characters, as they stand on Tamriel, were some sort of daedra.

    Until Balferia, the exact nature of my characters was a mystery. They are mortal, but can be resurrected easily, even before our soul is removed and before even visiting Coldharbour. No daedra considers my characters to be daedric and we can do things that daedra are prohibited or blocked from doing. It turns out that there is nothing special about Coldharbour and the experience in the Wailing Prison. It is just an event that has happened, or maybe never happened.

    Balferia strengthened the idea that we are aedric in nature, placed on Nirn by an Aedra. No retcon needed. This is why Akatosh is so willing to help us escape from the Wailing Prison and why we have abilities unique among the inhabitants of Nirn.

    Who's this "we" you are talking about?

    Sorry if I sound snippy, but it's a bit of a pet peeve when players try to dictate my characters' stories and backgrounds to me by saying I have to accept the new content as part of their story.

    Varanis Arano never did Balfiera. She never met the Mysterious Figure before Coldharbor. She never will. Those people and places are not a part of her story. She has a completely different backstory to how she got into Coldharbor at the start of ESO.

    Those quests are a part of the lore, and perhaps they are a part of the story of "The Vestige", that faceless, raceless ur-character amalgamated from every character created by every player in ESO that will be remembered (or not) in future games (similar to the Champion of Cyrodiil or the Nerevarine.)

    But this faceless, raceless "Vestige" is not my characters, who existed before the Balfiera tutorial and who may not agree that with a lorebook that they were placed on Nirn by an Aedra. Certainly, Varanis Arano has seen nothing yet to prove such a supposition that she can't otherwise explain. Perhaps, any new character I create will feel differently, since they will experience the new content.

    So I guess my appeal is that we have some respect for roleplaying. We can talk about the new player experience on Balfiera, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of older players who did the Main Quest before Update 6 or One Tamriel. There is more gray area here about the nature of the soul-shriven, heroic Vestige than the newer content suggests. Even though ZOS has tried its best to retcon out those shades of gray due to their non-chronological gameplay choices, players still remember and roleplay that they exist. They are not wrong to do so, any more than players are wrong to embrace the revelations of Balfiera if it fits their story.

    I like your ideas for your characters. But they are your characters, so you can roleplay them as you like.

    Pretty sure the person's comment wasn't an attempt to invalidate *your* roleplaying.

    Sure.

    Sorry, Elsonso. The lore retcons involving character beginnings are a pet peeve of mine, and I shouldn't have directed that irritation at you.
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