Current Performance Busters in Cyrodiil and Beyond.

McTaterskins

Hello all,

Some friends and I have been watching closely over the last several weeks to see if we could identify common denominators in regard to the game's performance. As we all know, the performance issues are definitely not isolated to just Cyrodiil. These issues have been increasing in other content as well. At an alarming rate. Even instanced content including BGs, Trials, and Dungeons.

There's many an instance where you get periods, even during peak times, where the game runs "ok". The days of it running "great" anywhere are seemingly behind us.



In turn, we started watching closely for specifics. Common denominators regarding performance issues that we've specifically noted that make things take a turn for the worst during gameplay at a rather rapid pace are:

Cyrodiil NPCs:
Upon engaging, agro, or often times just being in close proximity, the guards etc. at resource nodes and keeps (especially resource nodes) will immediately cause the game's performance to change. The amount of players present does not seem to impact this. You can be solo or in a small group of 2-4. The results are the same.
Myself and some others have brought this point up on other occasions.

Question: Is this a memory issue? I believe Matt? had brought up in a stream/interview one time that there were memory issues with the game on certain platforms that did not allow for the addition of more animations, skills etc. - Could this perhaps be related? Being that the NPC's are using outdated class skills and abilities that no longer jive with the rest of the game? Are there too many calculations involved with engaging these NPCs in their current form?


Plaguebreak and Kynmarcher's Cruelty:
Game will be performing "ok". Can be in a full BG, IC, or even in a decent sized fight in Cyrodiil. Then one of these sets arrives or gets applied and it is downhill from there.

Question: Can these sets be investigated? They are still relatively new and they have brought new functions to the mix.
In no way, shape, or form, am I saying to ditch these sets. They're pretty cool in their own right and do add flavor to combat. They just need to be looked at from the ZoS side as they are most definitely culprits in regard to performance dips.


Outfits/Style items:
We made some flashy outfits. We play for a bit in outfit 1. Then for a bit in Outfit 2, 3, etc. - Noticeably, the game performs differently when wearing base game outfit styles than it does in the latest and greatest bling. In my own current example of this, I made an outfit with crimson oath and some other spikey stuff, used the flashy reflective Frozen Blood color, and threw on the Spellscar weapons currently available in the crown store and through endeavors. (Used Endeavors to purchase them fyi.) - Noticeable difference in performance.

Question: As mentioned above, could this be memory related? Are these graphics or effects pushing some boundaries with the current capabilities?


Bar Changes & Inventory:
Noticeable FPS change when your inventory breeches the non ESO+ maximum. As soon as you hit 110+ things in your bags, whilst having 240+ things in your bank, your frames will dip and it will feel like the game is stuttering when you change/swap weapon bars. This also presents more frequently with those that have created, or have in current use, 6 characters or more.

Question: Is there some direct correlation to why this begins around the "expanded" memory point? "expanded" being the point beyond base values, where as ESO+ gives double the bag and bank space. - Assumption is that this is memory related.




I'm sure other things have been identified. There's quite the list running for bugs etc. - But I felt we could try to narrow down some focal points that might be manageable without having to wait for the core code architecture rebuild etc.

If anyone else has noticed actual specific things that cause desync or fps issues, please share.

When looking for these things or making observations, it is difficult to distinguish between just straight server/game delay or desync due to 10-50 players all inputting data at once, vs hey, it was just 2 of us and "X" person or NPC showed up, did "Y", and everything just went to H-E-Double Hockey sticks.

Please factor that when sharing observations. This is not an "ermergerd proc sets r bad" thread. This is likely more of a "oof, these graphics or animations are causing trauma" scenario tbh.

Edit note: The issues described here are on Xbox. Players in the control group are in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Upper Michigan, and Canada. All have 200-400 internet service. One has 1k. Most are hardwired vs. wireless, etc.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

McTaterskins wrote: »

Hello all,

Some friends and I have been watching closely over the last several weeks to see if we could identify common denominators in regard to the game's performance. As we all know, the performance issues are definitely not isolated to just Cyrodiil. These issues have been increasing in other content as well. At an alarming rate. Even instanced content including BGs, Trials, and Dungeons.

There's many an instance where you get periods, even during peak times, where the game runs "ok". The days of it running "great" anywhere are seemingly behind us.



In turn, we started watching closely for specifics. Common denominators regarding performance issues that we've specifically noted that make things take a turn for the worst during gameplay at a rather rapid pace are:

Cyrodiil NPCs:
Upon engaging, agro, or often times just being in close proximity, the guards etc. at resource nodes and keeps (especially resource nodes) will immediately cause the game's performance to change.
Myself and some others have brought this point up on other occasions.

Question: Is this a memory issue? I believe Matt? had brought up in a stream/interview one time that there were memory issues with the game on certain platforms that did not allow for the addition of more animations, skills etc. - Could this perhaps be related? Being that the NPC's are using outdated class skills and abilities that no longer jive with the rest of the game? Are there too many calculations involved with engaging these NPCs in their current form?


Plaguebreak and Kynmarcher's Cruelty:
Game will be performing "ok". Can be in a full BG, IC, or even in a decent sized fight in Cyrodiil. Then one of these sets arrives or gets applied and it is downhill from there.

Question: Can these sets be investigated? They are still relatively new and they have brought new functions to the mix.
In no way, shape, or form, am I saying to ditch these sets. They're pretty cool in their own right and do add flavor to combat. They just need to be looked at from the ZoS side as they are most definitely culprits in regard to performance dips.


Outfits/Style items:
We made some flashy outfits. We play for a bit in outfit 1. Then for a bit in Outfit 2, 3, etc. - Noticeably, the game performs differently when wearing base game outfit styles than it does in the latest and greatest bling. In my own current example of this, I made an outfit with crimson oath and some other spikey stuff, used the flashy reflective Frozen Blood color, and threw on the Spellscar weapons currently available in the crown store and through endeavors. (Used Endeavors to purchase them fyi.) - Noticeable difference in performance.

Question: As mentioned above, could this be memory related? Are these graphics or effects pushing some boundaries with the current capabilities?


I'm sure other things have been identified. There's quite the list running for bugs etc. - But I felt we could try to narrow down some focal points that might be manageable without having to wait for the core code architecture rebuild etc.

If anyone else has noticed actual specific things that cause desync or fps issues, please share.

When looking for these things or making observations, it is difficult to distinguish between just straight server/game delay or desync due to 10-50 players all inputting data at once, vs hey, it was just 2 of us and "X" person or NPC showed up, did "Y", and everything just went to H-E-Double Hockey sticks.

Please factor that when sharing observations. This is not an "ermergerd proc sets r bad" thread. This is likely more of a "oof, these graphics or animations are causing trauma" scenario tbh.

Hey OP,

They are video game specialists. I'm sure they know what is and isn't working at this point, but your points are interesting.

I'm just bewildered that they would even think of introducing these sets in a broken environment in the first place?

As for costumes:
In PvE raids we've already been using the skeleton polymorph for years as there were rumours that costumes/outfits would add to FPS drops and possibly latency issues.
I have some rather newer items (clothing wise) on my Nightblade, I honestly still lag/misfire/no weave/you know the rest, just as much.

It's pretty obvious that the game can't handle the organised groups (12+) which are on the servers. It's a shame for them and for us, I suppose, but I'm kind of surprised they did nothing definitive to at least reduce the urge for people to play like that

Necrotech_Master

the point about storage doesnt make any sense, if your talking about things in bag/bank, what about houses and the storage chests in the houses?

i have 67 houses (granted most are not decorated) but that is still add a ton of "storage" on my acct and yet i rarely feel any lag whatsoever except in cyrodiil (and this lag is still "network" related because my game still is running at 80-100 fps)

if im in cyro prime time, fighting guards on resources is laggy but not impossible, as soon as enemy players show up, all of my skills stop working

ive only ever had this lag problem in cyro, but not other zones such as IC (even during a midyear mayhem when it is poplocked) or any PVE content

my theory is that cyrodiil is just too big to be a singular zone for the amount of activity going on in there, IC doesnt have the same problem because its both a smaller zone, and each district is basically a mini zone inside of that zone

McTaterskins

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the point about storage doesnt make any sense, if your talking about things in bag/bank, what about houses and the storage chests in the houses?

i have 67 houses (granted most are not decorated) but that is still add a ton of "storage" on my acct and yet i rarely feel any lag whatsoever except in cyrodiil (and this lag is still "network" related because my game still is running at 80-100 fps)

I haven't had anyone give me any information regarding housing storage. The two types are storage don't seem to be linked either.

i.e. You can research, transmute, or deconstruct something in your bank that's not in your personal inventory, but you cannot select something you put into a crate.

I would think that's coded/cache'd differently in regard to flash/running memory.

As per the bag space/bank space causing FPS drops on bar swap, it can be recreated nearly on demand. Especially if you've recently cycled through more than 1 character without clearing saved data. (i.e. doing writs on everyone etc.)

VaranisArano

Anecdotal Observation on Crashing to Log-In while heading towards Large Battles:

I can handle being at a Keep during the start of a big battle. I can handle being there during the big battle.

The problem for me starts when I die, rez up somewhere else, and then try to ride back to the big battle.

Let's say there's a large battle at Blue Road Keep, and I die, rez up, and ride back from Arrius. It feels like there's an invisible line north of BRK where I disconnect. I can ride to the door or the breach, but I've already disconnected. If I sprint on my mount, I can pretty much guarantee I'll be disconnected. If I try to inch my way in, it feels like I get a little closer to the fight before I disconnect.

Let's say that there's a large battle at Casstle Alessia. I die, I rez up at Sejanus Outpost, and ride across the bridge and...I can ride into the front door/breach and maybe even see some enemy players loading in, but I've already disconnected.

Those are the moments I slow down and admire the enemy player's outfits, because once I crossed that invisible line, it's like I hit a wall. Either my computer, the server, or both say "Nope!" This continues to happen until the battle dies down or I give up after three tries and go play Warframe.

Problem: Once I die and leave the area, I crash when riding back to large battles.

Thoughts: I mean, this is one of the intractable problems that ZOS has tried to solve through their tests and nothing worked. Restricting player skills, healing, and sets didn't help enough to make a big difference on the end-user experience. So, I guess I'm left hoping that the re-architecture can address whatever is fundamentally broken here.

Temporary Solution: Once I die at a large battle, I go do something else, somewhere else. That's not a palatable option for guild players or PUGs, because they want to be playing with their group. It's not particularly palatable to me, since I like fighting at important objectives. But it is a solution that doesn't involve banging my head against an invisible wall through multiple crashes.

Adremal

I've noticed nothing on what's described in the OP except for the usual Cyro lag spikes (not necessarily tied to guards, and definitely lesser in magnitude the fewer players are around). The biggest cause for FPS drops is definitely the number of players around (got a reminder of that today when doing Geysers for the event, with FPS dropping to 24-30, must've been 30-50 people spamming AoEs), even skeletonizing everyone as someone mentioned did nothing for most of the people I've been running with, I assume that once stuff is loaded it stays in the memory (the FPS drops seemed better on the 2nd and 3rd Geyser, didn't really pay much attention to that to be honest so it could just be an impression).
I have 18 chars with a full bank and 200 items on most of them it that helps. The only bar-related issues I get are occasional misfires and the lightning staves HA getting stuck to completion.

McTaterskins

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anecdotal Observation on Crashing to Log-In while heading towards Large Battles:

I can handle being at a Keep during the start of a big battle. I can handle being there during the big battle.

The problem for me starts when I die, rez up somewhere else, and then try to ride back to the big battle.

Let's say there's a large battle at Blue Road Keep, and I die, rez up, and ride back from Arrius. It feels like there's an invisible line north of BRK where I disconnect. I can ride to the door or the breach, but I've already disconnected. If I sprint on my mount, I can pretty much guarantee I'll be disconnected. If I try to inch my way in, it feels like I get a little closer to the fight before I disconnect.

Let's say that there's a large battle at Casstle Alessia. I die, I rez up at Sejanus Outpost, and ride across the bridge and...I can ride into the front door/breach and maybe even see some enemy players loading in, but I've already disconnected.

Those are the moments I slow down and admire the enemy player's outfits, because once I crossed that invisible line, it's like I hit a wall. Either my computer, the server, or both say "Nope!" This continues to happen until the battle dies down or I give up after three tries and go play Warframe.

Problem: Once I die and leave the area, I crash when riding back to large battles.

Thoughts: I mean, this is one of the intractable problems that ZOS has tried to solve through their tests and nothing worked. Restricting player skills, healing, and sets didn't help enough to make a big difference on the end-user experience. So, I guess I'm left hoping that the re-architecture can address whatever is fundamentally broken here.

Temporary Solution: Once I die at a large battle, I go do something else, somewhere else. That's not a palatable option for guild players or PUGs, because they want to be playing with their group. It's not particularly palatable to me, since I like fighting at important objectives. But it is a solution that doesn't involve banging my head against an invisible wall through multiple crashes.

I've noticed this more and more lately. - I seem to survive it more often if I make sure saved data is cleared etc. and I have minimal things in my inventory.

It doesn't stop the problem though, and I agree with your assessments and have had your same experiences.

McTaterskins

Adremal wrote: »

I've noticed nothing on what's described in the OP except for the usual Cyro lag spikes (not necessarily tied to guards, and definitely lesser in magnitude the fewer players are around). The biggest cause for FPS drops is definitely the number of players around (got a reminder of that today when doing Geysers for the event, with FPS dropping to 24-30, must've been 30-50 people spamming AoEs), even skeletonizing everyone as someone mentioned did nothing for most of the people I've been running with, I assume that once stuff is loaded it stays in the memory (the FPS drops seemed better on the 2nd and 3rd Geyser, didn't really pay much attention to that to be honest so it could just be an impression).
I have 18 chars with a full bank and 200 items on most of them it that helps. The only bar-related issues I get are occasional misfires and the lightning staves HA getting stuck to completion.

What platform?

Adremal

McTaterskins wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

I've noticed nothing on what's described in the OP except for the usual Cyro lag spikes (not necessarily tied to guards, and definitely lesser in magnitude the fewer players are around). The biggest cause for FPS drops is definitely the number of players around (got a reminder of that today when doing Geysers for the event, with FPS dropping to 24-30, must've been 30-50 people spamming AoEs), even skeletonizing everyone as someone mentioned did nothing for most of the people I've been running with, I assume that once stuff is loaded it stays in the memory (the FPS drops seemed better on the 2nd and 3rd Geyser, didn't really pay much attention to that to be honest so it could just be an impression).
I have 18 chars with a full bank and 200 items on most of them it that helps. The only bar-related issues I get are occasional misfires and the lightning staves HA getting stuck to completion.

What platform?

PC/EU

McTaterskins

Adremal wrote: »

PC/EU

I have a couple of friends that play on PC and share your same sentiment. They're actually going to install and test Playstation over the next few weeks to see if they have the same issues as my control group has had on Xbox.

VaranisArano

Youyouz06 wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Hello all,

Some friends and I have been watching closely over the last several weeks to see if we could identify common denominators in regard to the game's performance. As we all know, the performance issues are definitely not isolated to just Cyrodiil. These issues have been increasing in other content as well. At an alarming rate. Even instanced content including BGs, Trials, and Dungeons.

There's many an instance where you get periods, even during peak times, where the game runs "ok". The days of it running "great" anywhere are seemingly behind us.



In turn, we started watching closely for specifics. Common denominators regarding performance issues that we've specifically noted that make things take a turn for the worst during gameplay at a rather rapid pace are:

Cyrodiil NPCs:
Upon engaging, agro, or often times just being in close proximity, the guards etc. at resource nodes and keeps (especially resource nodes) will immediately cause the game's performance to change.
Myself and some others have brought this point up on other occasions.

Question: Is this a memory issue? I believe Matt? had brought up in a stream/interview one time that there were memory issues with the game on certain platforms that did not allow for the addition of more animations, skills etc. - Could this perhaps be related? Being that the NPC's are using outdated class skills and abilities that no longer jive with the rest of the game? Are there too many calculations involved with engaging these NPCs in their current form?


Plaguebreak and Kynmarcher's Cruelty:
Game will be performing "ok". Can be in a full BG, IC, or even in a decent sized fight in Cyrodiil. Then one of these sets arrives or gets applied and it is downhill from there.

Question: Can these sets be investigated? They are still relatively new and they have brought new functions to the mix.
In no way, shape, or form, am I saying to ditch these sets. They're pretty cool in their own right and do add flavor to combat. They just need to be looked at from the ZoS side as they are most definitely culprits in regard to performance dips.


Outfits/Style items:
We made some flashy outfits. We play for a bit in outfit 1. Then for a bit in Outfit 2, 3, etc. - Noticeably, the game performs differently when wearing base game outfit styles than it does in the latest and greatest bling. In my own current example of this, I made an outfit with crimson oath and some other spikey stuff, used the flashy reflective Frozen Blood color, and threw on the Spellscar weapons currently available in the crown store and through endeavors. (Used Endeavors to purchase them fyi.) - Noticeable difference in performance.

Question: As mentioned above, could this be memory related? Are these graphics or effects pushing some boundaries with the current capabilities?


I'm sure other things have been identified. There's quite the list running for bugs etc. - But I felt we could try to narrow down some focal points that might be manageable without having to wait for the core code architecture rebuild etc.

If anyone else has noticed actual specific things that cause desync or fps issues, please share.

When looking for these things or making observations, it is difficult to distinguish between just straight server/game delay or desync due to 10-50 players all inputting data at once, vs hey, it was just 2 of us and "X" person or NPC showed up, did "Y", and everything just went to H-E-Double Hockey sticks.

Please factor that when sharing observations. This is not an "ermergerd proc sets r bad" thread. This is likely more of a "oof, these graphics or animations are causing trauma" scenario tbh.

Hey OP,

They are video game specialists. I'm sure they know what is and isn't working at this point, but your points are interesting.

I'm just bewildered that they would even think of introducing these sets in a broken environment in the first place?

As for costumes:
In PvE raids we've already been using the skeleton polymorph for years as there were rumours that costumes/outfits would add to FPS drops and possibly latency issues.
I have some rather newer items (clothing wise) on my Nightblade, I honestly still lag/misfire/no weave/you know the rest, just as much.

It's pretty obvious that the game can't handle the organised groups (12+) which are on the servers. It's a shame for them and for us, I suppose, but I'm kind of surprised they did nothing definitive to at least reduce the urge for people to play like that

I mean, it's kind of hard to disincentivize organized PVP guilds from playing Cyrodiil when that's exactly the type of 8-24 man group play that Cyrodiil was originally designed for. Even now, if you want to take objectives and farm a bunch of AP, there's really no playstyle as effective as a ball group.

Moreover, the tests restricting player skills, healing, and sets that impacted ball groups all didn't show that they were the root of the problem. It goes deeper than that, hence the rearchitecture.

Not that ZOS hasn't tried to disincentivize that playstyle, in their own way. Chopping group size to 12 hurt a lot of PVP guilds, especially the organized raids who picked up PUGs. Proximity Detonation and Plaguebreak are supposed to be anti-ballgroup tools. So is Dark Convergence.

Why add those sets?
Because ball groups were a pain point for players. ZOS listened and gave them sets that counter ball group tactics like Purge spam and moving in a tight ball when used correctly.

Who uses those sets and skills?
Well, mostly the ball groups, instead of their less organized but more numerous opponents. Goes to show that ZOS can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink any more than they can make zerg players use their new anti-group tools effectively.

Adremal

McTaterskins wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

PC/EU

I have a couple of friends that play on PC and share your same sentiment. They're actually going to install and test Playstation over the next few weeks to see if they have the same issues as my control group has had on Xbox.

Weird. Some things more than others, I mean Cyro has always had issues and BGs occasionally stutter (no matter which sets are used according to my experience, and Plaguebreak is very popular these days), but the thing about bar-swapping being tied to inventory slots and number of characters is just not something I can replicate (trying right now with a 210/210 - 480/480 character, can bar animation cancel flawlessly) or think of reasons that'd explain it. Again, I've been getting the issue where the lightning staff HA gets stuck and unable to get canceled until completion for a while along many others who posted about it, but none of the other things during normal gameplay. Some stutter/clunkiness in trials at most (and obviously major FPS drops when 50 people stack AoEs on a Geyser / WB but that's event-induced hysteria, not "normal gameplay").

vgabor

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anecdotal Observation on Crashing to Log-In while heading towards Large Battles:

I can handle being at a Keep during the start of a big battle. I can handle being there during the big battle.

The problem for me starts when I die, rez up somewhere else, and then try to ride back to the big battle.

Let's say there's a large battle at Blue Road Keep, and I die, rez up, and ride back from Arrius. It feels like there's an invisible line north of BRK where I disconnect. I can ride to the door or the breach, but I've already disconnected. If I sprint on my mount, I can pretty much guarantee I'll be disconnected. If I try to inch my way in, it feels like I get a little closer to the fight before I disconnect.

Let's say that there's a large battle at Casstle Alessia. I die, I rez up at Sejanus Outpost, and ride across the bridge and...I can ride into the front door/breach and maybe even see some enemy players loading in, but I've already disconnected.

Those are the moments I slow down and admire the enemy player's outfits, because once I crossed that invisible line, it's like I hit a wall. Either my computer, the server, or both say "Nope!" This continues to happen until the battle dies down or I give up after three tries and go play Warframe.

I've had this occurring for myself many times, and have a long standing suspicion why it's happening. I think there's two thing here clashing with each other.

One is the flood protection on the server. When your game client try to send/receive too much data at the same time to/from the server the protection will kick you from the server, and rightfully so, it designed to protect the server exactly from the game clients overwhelming the server.

The second is that I suspect the game client try to preload and precache data for nearby opponents for a far bigger range then just visibility range, so that when you get close to them and engage in combat with them the data is already present for the combat and graphical computations.

This two works fine and not clashing together when you're in place of of the big battle from the start as people will gather up to the big crowd over a time and your game client load the data over that time. But if you try to join that battle later when already a huge amount of people there, as you get close enough your client will try to preload and precache all the data for all the people already there, effectively at the same time. And this much data traffic at the same time will trigger the server flood protection which then will kick you out.

Also I think this explains why sprinting on the hose pretty much guarantees the disconnect as it increases the speed how fast those people getting into your preload range while if you drop off the horse and slowly walk/sneak closer then you have much better chances getting there, as your preload range will encounter those people at a much slower rate.

McTaterskins

vgabor wrote: »

I've had this occurring for myself many times, and have a long standing suspicion why it's happening. I think there's two thing here clashing with each other.

One is the flood protection on the server. When your game client try to send/receive too much data at the same time to/from the server the protection will kick you from the server, and rightfully so, it designed to protect the server exactly from the game clients overwhelming the server.

The second is that I suspect the game client try to preload and precache data for nearby opponents for a far bigger range then just visibility range, so that when you get close to them and engage in combat with them the data is already present for the combat and graphical computations.

This two works fine and not clashing together when you're in place of of the big battle from the start as people will gather up to the big crowd over a time and your game client load the data over that time. But if you try to join that battle later when already a huge amount of people there, as you get close enough your client will try to preload and precache all the data for all the people already there, effectively at the same time. And this much data traffic at the same time will trigger the server flood protection which then will kick you out.

Also I think this explains why sprinting on the hose pretty much guarantees the disconnect as it increases the speed how fast those people getting into your preload range while if you drop off the horse and slowly walk/sneak closer then you have much better chances getting there, as your preload range will encounter those people at a much slower rate.

Makes sense to me.

I'm not having this particular issue myself on Xbox unless I use one of the old ones.

Anyone having this issue on consoles?

katanagirl1

Dks have some problems with their skills firing in PvP, but my lag also seems worse when fighting them. It’s like my rotation goes from one skill per second to one skill per 5 seconds. Someone should look into that. My PvP toon is not dk.

I think that is the problem with the NPCs at resources too. A lot of them are essentially dks. Solo resource taking can get some egregious lag as well with them with no other players of any faction in the area.

EmperorIl

I don't know why they don't try basic faction costumes/mounts for all out there, sure people would whine at first but they would get over it if it actually made the game playable. If you are in Cyrodiil to show off your new look you're in the wrong place anyway. Gameplay>ALL. No more fancy mounts, glowing armor/wep effects, just your faction armor/wep/mount costume. And get rid of all the useless NPCs out there as well, no one cares about mobs in a PvP zone. They add nothing at all for anyone. Mats too, just get rid of all the needless crap and throw it all out the window to see if it actually helps the game.

Faulgor

Adremal wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

I've noticed nothing on what's described in the OP except for the usual Cyro lag spikes (not necessarily tied to guards, and definitely lesser in magnitude the fewer players are around). The biggest cause for FPS drops is definitely the number of players around (got a reminder of that today when doing Geysers for the event, with FPS dropping to 24-30, must've been 30-50 people spamming AoEs), even skeletonizing everyone as someone mentioned did nothing for most of the people I've been running with, I assume that once stuff is loaded it stays in the memory (the FPS drops seemed better on the 2nd and 3rd Geyser, didn't really pay much attention to that to be honest so it could just be an impression).
I have 18 chars with a full bank and 200 items on most of them it that helps. The only bar-related issues I get are occasional misfires and the lightning staves HA getting stuck to completion.

What platform?

PC/EU

I can confirm at least the NPC issue on PC/EU, although it mostly happens when the campaign is at capacity anyway. I assume at that point the server has no resources left to spare for my tower fight against guards.

Vaoh

Being realistic, the game is legit deteriorating. There’s not a single thing that can be done to help that rn.

There is so much more content since 2014 and so many small performance issues that were simply ignored and overtime became far larger issues. ZOS completing this foundational code rewriting effort by the end of 2022 is hopefully their way at a fresh start in terms of performance.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

VaranisArano wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Hello all,

Some friends and I have been watching closely over the last several weeks to see if we could identify common denominators in regard to the game's performance. As we all know, the performance issues are definitely not isolated to just Cyrodiil. These issues have been increasing in other content as well. At an alarming rate. Even instanced content including BGs, Trials, and Dungeons.

There's many an instance where you get periods, even during peak times, where the game runs "ok". The days of it running "great" anywhere are seemingly behind us.



In turn, we started watching closely for specifics. Common denominators regarding performance issues that we've specifically noted that make things take a turn for the worst during gameplay at a rather rapid pace are:

Cyrodiil NPCs:
Upon engaging, agro, or often times just being in close proximity, the guards etc. at resource nodes and keeps (especially resource nodes) will immediately cause the game's performance to change.
Myself and some others have brought this point up on other occasions.

Question: Is this a memory issue? I believe Matt? had brought up in a stream/interview one time that there were memory issues with the game on certain platforms that did not allow for the addition of more animations, skills etc. - Could this perhaps be related? Being that the NPC's are using outdated class skills and abilities that no longer jive with the rest of the game? Are there too many calculations involved with engaging these NPCs in their current form?


Plaguebreak and Kynmarcher's Cruelty:
Game will be performing "ok". Can be in a full BG, IC, or even in a decent sized fight in Cyrodiil. Then one of these sets arrives or gets applied and it is downhill from there.

Question: Can these sets be investigated? They are still relatively new and they have brought new functions to the mix.
In no way, shape, or form, am I saying to ditch these sets. They're pretty cool in their own right and do add flavor to combat. They just need to be looked at from the ZoS side as they are most definitely culprits in regard to performance dips.


Outfits/Style items:
We made some flashy outfits. We play for a bit in outfit 1. Then for a bit in Outfit 2, 3, etc. - Noticeably, the game performs differently when wearing base game outfit styles than it does in the latest and greatest bling. In my own current example of this, I made an outfit with crimson oath and some other spikey stuff, used the flashy reflective Frozen Blood color, and threw on the Spellscar weapons currently available in the crown store and through endeavors. (Used Endeavors to purchase them fyi.) - Noticeable difference in performance.

Question: As mentioned above, could this be memory related? Are these graphics or effects pushing some boundaries with the current capabilities?


I'm sure other things have been identified. There's quite the list running for bugs etc. - But I felt we could try to narrow down some focal points that might be manageable without having to wait for the core code architecture rebuild etc.

If anyone else has noticed actual specific things that cause desync or fps issues, please share.

When looking for these things or making observations, it is difficult to distinguish between just straight server/game delay or desync due to 10-50 players all inputting data at once, vs hey, it was just 2 of us and "X" person or NPC showed up, did "Y", and everything just went to H-E-Double Hockey sticks.

Please factor that when sharing observations. This is not an "ermergerd proc sets r bad" thread. This is likely more of a "oof, these graphics or animations are causing trauma" scenario tbh.

Hey OP,

They are video game specialists. I'm sure they know what is and isn't working at this point, but your points are interesting.

I'm just bewildered that they would even think of introducing these sets in a broken environment in the first place?

As for costumes:
In PvE raids we've already been using the skeleton polymorph for years as there were rumours that costumes/outfits would add to FPS drops and possibly latency issues.
I have some rather newer items (clothing wise) on my Nightblade, I honestly still lag/misfire/no weave/you know the rest, just as much.

It's pretty obvious that the game can't handle the organised groups (12+) which are on the servers. It's a shame for them and for us, I suppose, but I'm kind of surprised they did nothing definitive to at least reduce the urge for people to play like that

I mean, it's kind of hard to disincentivize organized PVP guilds from playing Cyrodiil when that's exactly the type of 8-24 man group play that Cyrodiil was originally designed for. Even now, if you want to take objectives and farm a bunch of AP, there's really no playstyle as effective as a ball group.

Moreover, the tests restricting player skills, healing, and sets that impacted ball groups all didn't show that they were the root of the problem. It goes deeper than that, hence the rearchitecture.

Not that ZOS hasn't tried to disincentivize that playstyle, in their own way. Chopping group size to 12 hurt a lot of PVP guilds, especially the organized raids who picked up PUGs. Proximity Detonation and Plaguebreak are supposed to be anti-ballgroup tools. So is Dark Convergence.

Why add those sets?
Because ball groups were a pain point for players. ZOS listened and gave them sets that counter ball group tactics like Purge spam and moving in a tight ball when used correctly.

Who uses those sets and skills?
Well, mostly the ball groups, instead of their less organized but more numerous opponents. Goes to show that ZOS can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink any more than they can make zerg players use their new anti-group tools effectively.

I'm not getting into this (I'll just reply briefly)
I think 80% of the player base would agree with me. The next 20% are those playing in those organised group ball settings (hey if they like it, sure why not), but it's performing like a hunk of guar droppings for all concerned (Ball group or no ball group). I don't see the 'pleasure' they are getting during prime time as it just gets 'worse'.

I don't see many of these 'sets' killing balls groups very effectively either. I see these set being used against randoms who don't apply the 35k-40K HP rules (Yeah that's the amount of HP those groups run now, it's kinda sad to see)

DigiAngel

I don't see any performance issues on my end....ever. Even waiting for the Imperfect today and yesterday where there must be at least 50 people with pets casting AOE constantly...nothing...no difference. On a modest gaming PC.

Amottica

In a manner of speaking OP is correct on multiple points. Pretty much every system in the game affects server and game performance. Character selection affects the performance throughout the game just like inventory and even friends/guild lists.

However, the solution is not so simple because it is pretty much everything. If the solution was simple then the professionals at Zenimax would have fixed this long ago. The recent notice from Matt Firror explains how the game is much more complex than it was originally and even then I expect it was much more complex than WoW and FF14 I just came from. The idea they presented for implementation later this year makes sense from a layperson's perspective and hopefully, it brings much-needed improvement.

katanagirl1

DigiAngel wrote: »

I don't see any performance issues on my end....ever. Even waiting for the Imperfect today and yesterday where there must be at least 50 people with pets casting AOE constantly...nothing...no difference. On a modest gaming PC.

Some PvE has performance issues, but generally world bosses are alright except for some animations not showing on screen.

This is different than PvP, though. For a boss fight in PvE there is only one target and all players are attacking it and not each other. For PvP, all players are attacking each other. The battle is much more complicated.

So if you are only playing in PvE you are generally not experiencing the same problems.

Kwoung

VaranisArano wrote: »

Anecdotal Observation on Crashing to Log-In while heading towards Large Battles:

I can handle being at a Keep during the start of a big battle. I can handle being there during the big battle.

The problem for me starts when I die, rez up somewhere else, and then try to ride back to the big battle.

Let's say there's a large battle at Blue Road Keep, and I die, rez up, and ride back from Arrius. It feels like there's an invisible line north of BRK where I disconnect. I can ride to the door or the breach, but I've already disconnected. If I sprint on my mount, I can pretty much guarantee I'll be disconnected. If I try to inch my way in, it feels like I get a little closer to the fight before I disconnect.

Let's say that there's a large battle at Casstle Alessia. I die, I rez up at Sejanus Outpost, and ride across the bridge and...I can ride into the front door/breach and maybe even see some enemy players loading in, but I've already disconnected.

Those are the moments I slow down and admire the enemy player's outfits, because once I crossed that invisible line, it's like I hit a wall. Either my computer, the server, or both say "Nope!" This continues to happen until the battle dies down or I give up after three tries and go play Warframe.

Problem: Once I die and leave the area, I crash when riding back to large battles.

Thoughts: I mean, this is one of the intractable problems that ZOS has tried to solve through their tests and nothing worked. Restricting player skills, healing, and sets didn't help enough to make a big difference on the end-user experience. So, I guess I'm left hoping that the re-architecture can address whatever is fundamentally broken here.

Temporary Solution: Once I die at a large battle, I go do something else, somewhere else. That's not a palatable option for guild players or PUGs, because they want to be playing with their group. It's not particularly palatable to me, since I like fighting at important objectives. But it is a solution that doesn't involve banging my head against an invisible wall through multiple crashes.

Actually been experiencing this for years, literally. The only thing we found to work a decent percentage of the time is to both..
a. Get in combat before entering the area. Agro a wolf, NPC, guard, anything.
b. Enter the area very slowly, once you are in, if you see other players moving about, you are good to go.

Do the above and you have about a 75% chance of getting back in the battle. Step "a" is the tricky one, because finding agro can be a pain, and to far away it drops, to close and you are already disconnected.

Rohamad_Ali

1)The only solution to this so far, "Kill the biggest ball group on the map until they log out."

2) enjoy 150 ping after success


3) Profit???

N00BxV1

My experience with this game tonight:

- First, I tried doing a few Dungeons -- had the occasional lag/desync where skills won't fire until 2-3 seconds later if at all. Even had a couple people crash/disconnect during these runs.

- Next, I tried doing a Battlegrounds -- when I get in I have to un-equip then re-equip my outfit because my weapons are on my feet (this happens every time I go into BG's lately). My skills lag/desync or do not work at all (especially Leap). Halfway through the match everyone else froze, and a minute or so later I disconnect from the server with an error. Logged back in and had a deserter penalty and couldn't re-queue... smh.

- Lastly, I tried going to Imperial City -- as soon as I get in none of my core combat or other skills work, nor could I talk to vendors or use doors. After about 5 minutes I was disconnected from the server with another error... smh again.

I'm on PC/NA, located in the East Coast US, and using gamepad ui. The in-game ping reads ~100ms most of the time. And there's nothing wrong with my internet (450mbps down, 20mbps up) as I am usually watching a stream while I play.

This game's performance issues are infuriating to say the least, and seem to have gotten worse over the past couple of years.

I really can't understand how full-time PVP'ers put up with it... They especially have my sympathy.

VaranisArano

Youyouz06 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Hello all,

Some friends and I have been watching closely over the last several weeks to see if we could identify common denominators in regard to the game's performance. As we all know, the performance issues are definitely not isolated to just Cyrodiil. These issues have been increasing in other content as well. At an alarming rate. Even instanced content including BGs, Trials, and Dungeons.

There's many an instance where you get periods, even during peak times, where the game runs "ok". The days of it running "great" anywhere are seemingly behind us.



In turn, we started watching closely for specifics. Common denominators regarding performance issues that we've specifically noted that make things take a turn for the worst during gameplay at a rather rapid pace are:

Cyrodiil NPCs:
Upon engaging, agro, or often times just being in close proximity, the guards etc. at resource nodes and keeps (especially resource nodes) will immediately cause the game's performance to change.
Myself and some others have brought this point up on other occasions.

Question: Is this a memory issue? I believe Matt? had brought up in a stream/interview one time that there were memory issues with the game on certain platforms that did not allow for the addition of more animations, skills etc. - Could this perhaps be related? Being that the NPC's are using outdated class skills and abilities that no longer jive with the rest of the game? Are there too many calculations involved with engaging these NPCs in their current form?


Plaguebreak and Kynmarcher's Cruelty:
Game will be performing "ok". Can be in a full BG, IC, or even in a decent sized fight in Cyrodiil. Then one of these sets arrives or gets applied and it is downhill from there.

Question: Can these sets be investigated? They are still relatively new and they have brought new functions to the mix.
In no way, shape, or form, am I saying to ditch these sets. They're pretty cool in their own right and do add flavor to combat. They just need to be looked at from the ZoS side as they are most definitely culprits in regard to performance dips.


Outfits/Style items:
We made some flashy outfits. We play for a bit in outfit 1. Then for a bit in Outfit 2, 3, etc. - Noticeably, the game performs differently when wearing base game outfit styles than it does in the latest and greatest bling. In my own current example of this, I made an outfit with crimson oath and some other spikey stuff, used the flashy reflective Frozen Blood color, and threw on the Spellscar weapons currently available in the crown store and through endeavors. (Used Endeavors to purchase them fyi.) - Noticeable difference in performance.

Question: As mentioned above, could this be memory related? Are these graphics or effects pushing some boundaries with the current capabilities?


I'm sure other things have been identified. There's quite the list running for bugs etc. - But I felt we could try to narrow down some focal points that might be manageable without having to wait for the core code architecture rebuild etc.

If anyone else has noticed actual specific things that cause desync or fps issues, please share.

When looking for these things or making observations, it is difficult to distinguish between just straight server/game delay or desync due to 10-50 players all inputting data at once, vs hey, it was just 2 of us and "X" person or NPC showed up, did "Y", and everything just went to H-E-Double Hockey sticks.

Please factor that when sharing observations. This is not an "ermergerd proc sets r bad" thread. This is likely more of a "oof, these graphics or animations are causing trauma" scenario tbh.

Hey OP,

They are video game specialists. I'm sure they know what is and isn't working at this point, but your points are interesting.

I'm just bewildered that they would even think of introducing these sets in a broken environment in the first place?

As for costumes:
In PvE raids we've already been using the skeleton polymorph for years as there were rumours that costumes/outfits would add to FPS drops and possibly latency issues.
I have some rather newer items (clothing wise) on my Nightblade, I honestly still lag/misfire/no weave/you know the rest, just as much.

It's pretty obvious that the game can't handle the organised groups (12+) which are on the servers. It's a shame for them and for us, I suppose, but I'm kind of surprised they did nothing definitive to at least reduce the urge for people to play like that

I mean, it's kind of hard to disincentivize organized PVP guilds from playing Cyrodiil when that's exactly the type of 8-24 man group play that Cyrodiil was originally designed for. Even now, if you want to take objectives and farm a bunch of AP, there's really no playstyle as effective as a ball group.

Moreover, the tests restricting player skills, healing, and sets that impacted ball groups all didn't show that they were the root of the problem. It goes deeper than that, hence the rearchitecture.

Not that ZOS hasn't tried to disincentivize that playstyle, in their own way. Chopping group size to 12 hurt a lot of PVP guilds, especially the organized raids who picked up PUGs. Proximity Detonation and Plaguebreak are supposed to be anti-ballgroup tools. So is Dark Convergence.

Why add those sets?
Because ball groups were a pain point for players. ZOS listened and gave them sets that counter ball group tactics like Purge spam and moving in a tight ball when used correctly.

Who uses those sets and skills?
Well, mostly the ball groups, instead of their less organized but more numerous opponents. Goes to show that ZOS can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink any more than they can make zerg players use their new anti-group tools effectively.

I'm not getting into this (I'll just reply briefly)
I think 80% of the player base would agree with me. The next 20% are those playing in those organised group ball settings (hey if they like it, sure why not), but it's performing like a hunk of guar droppings for all concerned (Ball group or no ball group). I don't see the 'pleasure' they are getting during prime time as it just gets 'worse'.

I don't see many of these 'sets' killing balls groups very effectively either. I see these set being used against randoms who don't apply the 35k-40K HP rules (Yeah that's the amount of HP those groups run now, it's kinda sad to see)

Then I'll give you a brief response: ZOS' tests showed that performance issues involving ball groups are correlation, not causation. You can think what you like about their gameplay, but the accompanying performance drops are a symptom of the underlying problems with the code.

Kwoung

DigiAngel wrote: »

I don't see any performance issues on my end....ever. Even waiting for the Imperfect today and yesterday where there must be at least 50 people with pets casting AOE constantly...nothing...no difference. On a modest gaming PC.

That would be the same reason Cyrodiil performs flawlessly during MYM events, ZOS tosses more resources at event zones.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

VaranisArano wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Hello all,

Some friends and I have been watching closely over the last several weeks to see if we could identify common denominators in regard to the game's performance. As we all know, the performance issues are definitely not isolated to just Cyrodiil. These issues have been increasing in other content as well. At an alarming rate. Even instanced content including BGs, Trials, and Dungeons.

There's many an instance where you get periods, even during peak times, where the game runs "ok". The days of it running "great" anywhere are seemingly behind us.



In turn, we started watching closely for specifics. Common denominators regarding performance issues that we've specifically noted that make things take a turn for the worst during gameplay at a rather rapid pace are:

Cyrodiil NPCs:
Upon engaging, agro, or often times just being in close proximity, the guards etc. at resource nodes and keeps (especially resource nodes) will immediately cause the game's performance to change.
Myself and some others have brought this point up on other occasions.

Question: Is this a memory issue? I believe Matt? had brought up in a stream/interview one time that there were memory issues with the game on certain platforms that did not allow for the addition of more animations, skills etc. - Could this perhaps be related? Being that the NPC's are using outdated class skills and abilities that no longer jive with the rest of the game? Are there too many calculations involved with engaging these NPCs in their current form?


Plaguebreak and Kynmarcher's Cruelty:
Game will be performing "ok". Can be in a full BG, IC, or even in a decent sized fight in Cyrodiil. Then one of these sets arrives or gets applied and it is downhill from there.

Question: Can these sets be investigated? They are still relatively new and they have brought new functions to the mix.
In no way, shape, or form, am I saying to ditch these sets. They're pretty cool in their own right and do add flavor to combat. They just need to be looked at from the ZoS side as they are most definitely culprits in regard to performance dips.


Outfits/Style items:
We made some flashy outfits. We play for a bit in outfit 1. Then for a bit in Outfit 2, 3, etc. - Noticeably, the game performs differently when wearing base game outfit styles than it does in the latest and greatest bling. In my own current example of this, I made an outfit with crimson oath and some other spikey stuff, used the flashy reflective Frozen Blood color, and threw on the Spellscar weapons currently available in the crown store and through endeavors. (Used Endeavors to purchase them fyi.) - Noticeable difference in performance.

Question: As mentioned above, could this be memory related? Are these graphics or effects pushing some boundaries with the current capabilities?


I'm sure other things have been identified. There's quite the list running for bugs etc. - But I felt we could try to narrow down some focal points that might be manageable without having to wait for the core code architecture rebuild etc.

If anyone else has noticed actual specific things that cause desync or fps issues, please share.

When looking for these things or making observations, it is difficult to distinguish between just straight server/game delay or desync due to 10-50 players all inputting data at once, vs hey, it was just 2 of us and "X" person or NPC showed up, did "Y", and everything just went to H-E-Double Hockey sticks.

Please factor that when sharing observations. This is not an "ermergerd proc sets r bad" thread. This is likely more of a "oof, these graphics or animations are causing trauma" scenario tbh.

Hey OP,

They are video game specialists. I'm sure they know what is and isn't working at this point, but your points are interesting.

I'm just bewildered that they would even think of introducing these sets in a broken environment in the first place?

As for costumes:
In PvE raids we've already been using the skeleton polymorph for years as there were rumours that costumes/outfits would add to FPS drops and possibly latency issues.
I have some rather newer items (clothing wise) on my Nightblade, I honestly still lag/misfire/no weave/you know the rest, just as much.

It's pretty obvious that the game can't handle the organised groups (12+) which are on the servers. It's a shame for them and for us, I suppose, but I'm kind of surprised they did nothing definitive to at least reduce the urge for people to play like that

I mean, it's kind of hard to disincentivize organized PVP guilds from playing Cyrodiil when that's exactly the type of 8-24 man group play that Cyrodiil was originally designed for. Even now, if you want to take objectives and farm a bunch of AP, there's really no playstyle as effective as a ball group.

Moreover, the tests restricting player skills, healing, and sets that impacted ball groups all didn't show that they were the root of the problem. It goes deeper than that, hence the rearchitecture.

Not that ZOS hasn't tried to disincentivize that playstyle, in their own way. Chopping group size to 12 hurt a lot of PVP guilds, especially the organized raids who picked up PUGs. Proximity Detonation and Plaguebreak are supposed to be anti-ballgroup tools. So is Dark Convergence.

Why add those sets?
Because ball groups were a pain point for players. ZOS listened and gave them sets that counter ball group tactics like Purge spam and moving in a tight ball when used correctly.

Who uses those sets and skills?
Well, mostly the ball groups, instead of their less organized but more numerous opponents. Goes to show that ZOS can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink any more than they can make zerg players use their new anti-group tools effectively.

I'm not getting into this (I'll just reply briefly)
I think 80% of the player base would agree with me. The next 20% are those playing in those organised group ball settings (hey if they like it, sure why not), but it's performing like a hunk of guar droppings for all concerned (Ball group or no ball group). I don't see the 'pleasure' they are getting during prime time as it just gets 'worse'.

I don't see many of these 'sets' killing balls groups very effectively either. I see these set being used against randoms who don't apply the 35k-40K HP rules (Yeah that's the amount of HP those groups run now, it's kinda sad to see)

Then I'll give you a brief response: ZOS' tests showed that performance issues involving ball groups are correlation, not causation. You can think what you like about their gameplay, but the accompanying performance drops are a symptom of the underlying problems with the code.

Yes I get what you mean. But the two go hand in hand, right?
If you have something that is on the the brink of 'breaking' why put pressure on it knowing it's going to break? *scratches head*

Kwoung

Youyouz06 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Hello all,

Some friends and I have been watching closely over the last several weeks to see if we could identify common denominators in regard to the game's performance. As we all know, the performance issues are definitely not isolated to just Cyrodiil. These issues have been increasing in other content as well. At an alarming rate. Even instanced content including BGs, Trials, and Dungeons.

There's many an instance where you get periods, even during peak times, where the game runs "ok". The days of it running "great" anywhere are seemingly behind us.



In turn, we started watching closely for specifics. Common denominators regarding performance issues that we've specifically noted that make things take a turn for the worst during gameplay at a rather rapid pace are:

Cyrodiil NPCs:
Upon engaging, agro, or often times just being in close proximity, the guards etc. at resource nodes and keeps (especially resource nodes) will immediately cause the game's performance to change.
Myself and some others have brought this point up on other occasions.

Question: Is this a memory issue? I believe Matt? had brought up in a stream/interview one time that there were memory issues with the game on certain platforms that did not allow for the addition of more animations, skills etc. - Could this perhaps be related? Being that the NPC's are using outdated class skills and abilities that no longer jive with the rest of the game? Are there too many calculations involved with engaging these NPCs in their current form?


Plaguebreak and Kynmarcher's Cruelty:
Game will be performing "ok". Can be in a full BG, IC, or even in a decent sized fight in Cyrodiil. Then one of these sets arrives or gets applied and it is downhill from there.

Question: Can these sets be investigated? They are still relatively new and they have brought new functions to the mix.
In no way, shape, or form, am I saying to ditch these sets. They're pretty cool in their own right and do add flavor to combat. They just need to be looked at from the ZoS side as they are most definitely culprits in regard to performance dips.


Outfits/Style items:
We made some flashy outfits. We play for a bit in outfit 1. Then for a bit in Outfit 2, 3, etc. - Noticeably, the game performs differently when wearing base game outfit styles than it does in the latest and greatest bling. In my own current example of this, I made an outfit with crimson oath and some other spikey stuff, used the flashy reflective Frozen Blood color, and threw on the Spellscar weapons currently available in the crown store and through endeavors. (Used Endeavors to purchase them fyi.) - Noticeable difference in performance.

Question: As mentioned above, could this be memory related? Are these graphics or effects pushing some boundaries with the current capabilities?


I'm sure other things have been identified. There's quite the list running for bugs etc. - But I felt we could try to narrow down some focal points that might be manageable without having to wait for the core code architecture rebuild etc.

If anyone else has noticed actual specific things that cause desync or fps issues, please share.

When looking for these things or making observations, it is difficult to distinguish between just straight server/game delay or desync due to 10-50 players all inputting data at once, vs hey, it was just 2 of us and "X" person or NPC showed up, did "Y", and everything just went to H-E-Double Hockey sticks.

Please factor that when sharing observations. This is not an "ermergerd proc sets r bad" thread. This is likely more of a "oof, these graphics or animations are causing trauma" scenario tbh.

Hey OP,

They are video game specialists. I'm sure they know what is and isn't working at this point, but your points are interesting.

I'm just bewildered that they would even think of introducing these sets in a broken environment in the first place?

As for costumes:
In PvE raids we've already been using the skeleton polymorph for years as there were rumours that costumes/outfits would add to FPS drops and possibly latency issues.
I have some rather newer items (clothing wise) on my Nightblade, I honestly still lag/misfire/no weave/you know the rest, just as much.

It's pretty obvious that the game can't handle the organised groups (12+) which are on the servers. It's a shame for them and for us, I suppose, but I'm kind of surprised they did nothing definitive to at least reduce the urge for people to play like that

I mean, it's kind of hard to disincentivize organized PVP guilds from playing Cyrodiil when that's exactly the type of 8-24 man group play that Cyrodiil was originally designed for. Even now, if you want to take objectives and farm a bunch of AP, there's really no playstyle as effective as a ball group.

Moreover, the tests restricting player skills, healing, and sets that impacted ball groups all didn't show that they were the root of the problem. It goes deeper than that, hence the rearchitecture.

Not that ZOS hasn't tried to disincentivize that playstyle, in their own way. Chopping group size to 12 hurt a lot of PVP guilds, especially the organized raids who picked up PUGs. Proximity Detonation and Plaguebreak are supposed to be anti-ballgroup tools. So is Dark Convergence.

Why add those sets?
Because ball groups were a pain point for players. ZOS listened and gave them sets that counter ball group tactics like Purge spam and moving in a tight ball when used correctly.

Who uses those sets and skills?
Well, mostly the ball groups, instead of their less organized but more numerous opponents. Goes to show that ZOS can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink any more than they can make zerg players use their new anti-group tools effectively.

I'm not getting into this (I'll just reply briefly)
I think 80% of the player base would agree with me. The next 20% are those playing in those organised group ball settings (hey if they like it, sure why not), but it's performing like a hunk of guar droppings for all concerned (Ball group or no ball group). I don't see the 'pleasure' they are getting during prime time as it just gets 'worse'.

I don't see many of these 'sets' killing balls groups very effectively either. I see these set being used against randoms who don't apply the 35k-40K HP rules (Yeah that's the amount of HP those groups run now, it's kinda sad to see)

Then I'll give you a brief response: ZOS' tests showed that performance issues involving ball groups are correlation, not causation. You can think what you like about their gameplay, but the accompanying performance drops are a symptom of the underlying problems with the code.

Yes I get what you mean. But the two go hand in hand, right?
If you have something that is on the the brink of 'breaking' why put pressure on it knowing it's going to break? *scratches head*

I have spent considerable time in Cyrodiil, and in my experience, zergs create massive lag, much more so than ball groups. As a matter of fact, I have been frozen, kicked from game, etc... 95% more from the EP or AD zerg rolling in, than ever from a ball group showing up. Anyways, ZOS just needs to fix their game, as the entire manta here is "Play how you like" isn't it? And some folks like zerging, some being in ball groups and the numerous other types of PVP play... all are valid styles and the game supports all those styles of play... when it is actually working, which currently is only once or twice a year during MYM, or whatever the new name for it will be.

katanagirl1

Zergs do create tremendous lag, but ball groups cause lag in that my skills just suddenly go from one per second to one every 5 seconds...if I’m lucky. I’m usually dead soon thereafter.

Not sure which is worse. Ball groups are coordinated so they are more effective than zergs in some cases. Anytime you can’t use your skills when you need them is bad.

Reverb

Just before I quit I had solidified my theory that resource and keep guards are the primary contributor to pvp lag. I had actually traced through old patch notes and was able to correlate patches where the guard levels and bonuses were altered to periods of worsening performance.

This is borne out when soloing a resource. A tier 1 resource will work fine(ish) but at a top tier resource you will experience skill delays, skills failing to fire completely, bar swap lag, positioning desyncs, and all other symptoms we attribute to pvp lag, even when you’re all alone on a low pop server.

I’d really like to see a test on the live server with all guards removed for a week or two.