Class Identity. Which classes need the most attention?

MindOfTheSwarm

Just wanted to know how the community felt about the classes and their identities. As in how they play and what they bring to both the PvE and PvP experience.

Here is my list of the classes in terms of priority on class identity fixes.

1. Nightblades: I personally feel that over time Nightblades have suffered a gradual loss of their identity. The Shadow line is actually pretty good but the other two lines feel watered down. Especially the assassination line. Nightblade’s just don’t have that assassination feel they used to have which is why they are at the top of my list.

2. Necromancer: Despite being very strong they just don’t feel like… well necromancers. Blastbones is still a clunky skill and to be honest I don’t know what can be done about it.

3. Warden: Biggest issue with Warden is that the animal skills only have three offensive skills outside of the Bear ultimate. This is why Shalks is so necessary. If you don’t run Shalks you suffer and their is no alternative to make up for it. If the class is supposed to be the beast summoner, I believe that the other two skills need to do something more offensive. I think the bird needs looking at as well as it’s a poor skill and might be better served as an actual pet like the bear despite the hate that pet builds generally get.

The remaining 3 classes actually feel pretty solid on their identities. I could talk about buffs and nerfs but I feel that is best suited in a separate post.

milllaurie

Try stamina sorcerer.
Right now it is just a cunjuror of weapons somehow running surrounded by storms and doing another trick or two? Inconsitent and no real identity.

ive_wonder

While we on this topic, can someone describe how classes differentiate from each other?
Gameplay-wise.

tuxon

1. Warden:

I probably have a bit unique opinion on it. For me it feels like a complete mess...I think they shouldn't have connected it to Morrowind chapter (especially now when you buy it separately it makes even less sense). The thing is that cliff racers and netches are too unique to Morrowind and Vvardenfell to have them in class that any race can be and considering Wardens also have Ice skill line (made to complete fire[DK]+lightning[Sorc]+Ice[Warden] TES trio ofc) it is even more of an "unstable concoction" as now Warden has: Volcanic Island Fauna (and Bear) + Some Valenwoodish greenery (&Mushrooms) + Ice...
The only race that more or less suits for Warden is Nord specifically from isle of Solstheim.
Game play wise I can't say much because I just can't create any consistent "warden" character.
What does it Ward btw, Green Pact of Bosmers?

2. Necromancer:

It's just a big fail of a class and just a copy paste of Warden in many ways e.g. Netch>Ghost summon, cliffracer>skull toss where even the animations are the same.
I remember farming Worm Wizard personality so hard to play necro in the next chapter at that time but even on Elsweyr PTS the feedback wasn't so positive as I remember.

3. All vanilla classes have some identity to them, more or less in my opinion. I play mostly Templars, they stand out the most I think.

phaneub17_ESO

ive_wonder wrote: »

While we on this topic, can someone describe how classes differentiate from each other?
Gameplay-wise.

IMO, at least for the standard 4 classes, each one is a representation of Warrior, Thief, and Mage. Sorcerer is a combination of Destruction, Conjuration, and Alteration schools of magic. Templar is a mix of Restoration and Alteration with a hybrid of Warrior and Mage. Nightblade is supposed to represent the Thief, but has since changed over the years and has been muddled in a slow progression away by other classes improving. Dragon Knight is the Warrior, and pretty much hasn't changed all that much from conception. While all classes can do any roles, they perform best at their representation which is why the Dragon Knight is such a good tank and Templar is an excellent Healer.

With the introduction of Warden and Necromancer, instead of focusing on a singular path they are true hybrids where each tree is focused on Healing, Tanking, and Damage other than their thematic elements they don't fit any of the 3 archetypes and can feel like they don't have a good grasp on identity or just be overpowered because they need to cram in the bloat. At least that's how I feel about it.

AuraNebula

I agree with nightblades. It seems as if all these new sets like plaugebreak and dark convergence have been made to make everyone be able to be a bomber.
Which is fine but they have made traditional nightblade bombing obsolete.

They nerfed proxy and then nerfed acuity, buffed resistances. I had to shelf my NB bomber. I miss playing it a lot but they just completely gutted the play style.

You have to sacrifice everything, your health and resistances for full damage to be able to burst and now that doesn't work because of how strong resistances and healing is.

gariondavey

Should turn this into a poll

woe

Every class. With the homogenized armor, every single class is basically the same.

Tommy_The_Gun

I think that in every instance if you decide to use a weapon / world / guild ability, instead of your class ability, because your class ability is inferior (non - class ability does same thing, but way, way better) - then it is a sign that "class identity" is dwindling.

A classic example would be NB's Mass Hysteria vs Fighters Guild's Turn Evil:

Mass Hysteria:
Summon a dark spirit to terrify up to 6 enemies, causing them to cower in fear for 3 seconds.

Turn Evil:
Brand the earth at your location with a rune of protection for 20 seconds. You and your allies in the area gain Minor Protection and Minor Endurance, reducing your damage taken by 5% and increasing your Stamina Recovery by 15%. Upon activation, enemies in the area are feared for 5 seconds.

Fear CC used to be one of the class defining things. If you wanted to have access to it, you had to be a NB, or alternatively you could use fear CC in WW form (WW skill) or equip a gear set that has fear CC effect. That was it. By adding fear CC to Fighters Guild, ZOS not only removed some of the NB's class identity, but they also made a guild skill better than a class skill.
^ That is an equivalent to... lets say adding a "blink" ability (copy - paste Streak, but better with additional effects) to mages guild. There would be less reasons to play certain class (Sorcerer in this case), so Sorc would lose a lot of class identity.

TLDR: Class Identity = a reason to play certain class, other than "flavour".

Ksariyu

In PvP, there are still some slivers of identity to each class. By slivers I literally mean a skill or two each, but the difference each one makes is actually noticeable in that environment. NB's Cloak, Sorc's Streak, Warden's Shalks, for example.

In PvE, it's hard to pick a specific class because they all feel genuinely identical in terms of gameplay. The fact of the matter is that the class-defining abilities either don't have a place in PvE, or the difference they make in PvP is negated in a PvE context. Invis, for example, is literally useless in PvE, yet it is THE Nightblade skill. Rune Prison and Petrify, very powerful CC abilities that other classes can't access, but why would you ever use them in a dungeon when the only enemies you'd ever need to stun are CC immune? Everything else, like Shalks or Beacon or Frags, just become another skill you cast "off-cooldown," rather than as part of a timed burst like you would in PvP. Once again I blame the exclusive reliance on LA weaving for much of this.

Personally I'll still say NB is the worst in terms of PvE, simply because the things that make them Nightblades just don't matter in PvE. Also RIP Haste.

Cloudtrader

I feel like Nightblades are the most lacking in class identity, especially Stamblades. It takes a keen eye to spot a Nightblade, and not just because they use Cloak. Every other class seems to have multiple flashy indicators to represent them, but usually I don't notice that someone is a Nightblade.

Auberon1983

milllaurie wrote: »

Try stamina sorcerer.
Right now it is just a cunjuror of weapons somehow running surrounded by storms and doing another trick or two? Inconsitent and no real identity.

It's the truth. StamSorc has the potential to be like a "Battle Mage" type. Instead, it is almost exclusively used for the class passives rather than abilities. The abilities that do get utilized, outside of Streak, are fairly unremarkable (Crystal Weapon is just a redo of the Psijic skill). Don't get me wrong, I love the class, my PvP main was a StamSorc, but he didn't feel like a "Sorcerer" at all.

While we're on it, SorcTank is also fairly lacking in class distinction. Heck, if there's another Sorc in the party, it's just a generic tank. No class pizazz at all.

FeedbackOnly

Dragon knight healer so it's shield doesn't stack with dk tank

Seraphayel

Problem is, every class basically plays the same due to the same cookie cutter builds. And you’re always looking for the same skills because of the buffs.

Classes don’t really have an identity anymore because class doesn’t matter as much as sets and weapon / other skills.

Facefister

ive_wonder wrote: »

While we on this topic, can someone describe how classes differentiate from each other?
Gameplay-wise.

Ultimates. And that's it. There is no class identity in ESO except for passives and ultimates.

MindOfTheSwarm

People made some good points. Another, thing which hurts diversity is that many morphs don’t offer that much of a difference. Many Stam morphs are basically the same thing. There are exceptions however, such as Crystal Weapon and Bound Armaments and I think that this is a step in the right direction.

HowlKimchi

There is no class identity in PVE. Every single class plays the same and it's boring [snip]. It's a shame because ESO has the best dungeon designs in any MMO out right now.

buff->buff->dot->dot->dot, repeat.

I blame the lack of need for utility in PVE. Zenimax needs to introduce mechanics that will make CCs useful in PVE. Another MMO out now has a great mechanic where mobs have sort of a "block bar" which is reduced whenever it gets CC'd. Depending on the mechanic, you'd want to break it to stop the boss from channeling a spell, or just to stun him to to get big damage etc.

For other utility skills like the NBs invis... For it to be useful, the light attack weaving + keep all dots up meta needs to change and I don't think it ever will. An unintentional mechanic that they couldn't fix which they just called a "feature" (which looks terrible like your character is spazzing out), is severely limiting build diversity in this game.

In PVP though, classes feel unique except for maybe stam sorc and stam dk being a bit too similar. Shame about the server performance though.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Blinx

aside from a few class skills used all sta feels similar to me, and same goes for magicka, they use similar abilities/similar armor if not identical..but I have fun leveling them up-currently have 2 Magicka/2 Stamina

(I play 99.999999% PVE, only PVP during events)

MindOfTheSwarm

One thing for NB they could do is have extra effects on skills when used from stealth. Example: Killer’s Blade could Silence for 1 second, Ambush reduce Armor, Surprise Attack would keep its stun. I actually can up with an idea for an NB rework some time ago to address its lack of identity.

MindOfTheSwarm

Remember the old version of Stygian set? I think it gave 25% more damage for 3 seconds when attacking from stealth. This should have been a baseline passive of the NB. Encouraging stealth’s usage in PVE. I barely use stealth in PvP, there is little to no need.

FlipFlopFrog

They pretty much all lack identity because that's the nature of how ESO was built from the start unfortunately. They decided to move away from the classic MMO archetype/roles and said "everyone can do everything!" which is why we are currently limited to only six classes that all essentially do the same thing to a degree. IMHO it would've been way cooler if they had given us many more classes to choose from but they each do a specialized role in combat.

ESO_Nightingale

Warden, and specifically the mag side.

Mojmir

Its all about colors. 😆

Drdeath20

Templar.

2 of the ultimates are inferior in almost every way to world ultimates or just world skills. Laying a blood ritual down allows you to move around and do other healing where templars healing ultimate makes you a motionless statue.

Solar disturbance is forever known and the weaker morph of solar prism. It’s effect that makes it unique is useless in pve and very niche for pvp.

Half of their skills are never worth slotting.

Radiant aura is a back bar skill with front bar buffs. It’s primary function is not effective bcz the minor magicka steal can only be used from 1 target and it’s new effect (increased radius) is nice but more of a token gesture in long boss fights. Players rarely need minor magicka steal in trash mob fight’s especially since the meta armor sets give it passively. In reality ele drain does the same thing and applies an important debuff.

There is never a time to ever slot Explosive charge. The stub from focused charge has much more use. Damaging multiple targets is not a desirable morph as opposed to a almost guaranteed stun.

The other morph of vamps bane (reflective light) that effects multiple targets falls in the same category.

Blazing shield has been weakened soo many times and even lost more power with the nerf/change to burning light.

They might just need to go back to the drawing board with Eclipse and morphs. Same goes for healing ritual and morphs.

Alright I’m losing steam here but the point being that the class is littered by skills not worth slotting bcz the alternatives are just more practical or powerful.

frnic

ESO has always been oriented to design your character however you want. The idea for me was to break out of the traditional Trinity (Tank, DPS, Heal) and experiment with other groups - sadly that mostly doesn't happen. I guess people are resistant to change.

I have played (since beta 2013) almost exclusively RPG soloing PVE. I never play PVP. And I completely enjoy experimenting with various odd ball combinations.

Amottica

The class I play.

joerginger

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Templar.

2 of the ultimates are inferior in almost every way to world ultimates or just world skills. Laying a blood ritual down allows you to move around and do other healing where templars healing ultimate makes you a motionless statue.

Solar disturbance is forever known and the weaker morph of solar prism. It’s effect that makes it unique is useless in pve and very niche for pvp.

Half of their skills are never worth slotting.

Radiant aura is a back bar skill with front bar buffs. It’s primary function is not effective bcz the minor magicka steal can only be used from 1 target and it’s new effect (increased radius) is nice but more of a token gesture in long boss fights. Players rarely need minor magicka steal in trash mob fight’s especially since the meta armor sets give it passively. In reality ele drain does the same thing and applies an important debuff.

There is never a time to ever slot Explosive charge. The stub from focused charge has much more use. Damaging multiple targets is not a desirable morph as opposed to a almost guaranteed stun.

The other morph of vamps bane (reflective light) that effects multiple targets falls in the same category.

Blazing shield has been weakened soo many times and even lost more power with the nerf/change to burning light.

They might just need to go back to the drawing board with Eclipse and morphs. Same goes for healing ritual and morphs.

Alright I’m losing steam here but the point being that the class is littered by skills not worth slotting bcz the alternatives are just more practical or powerful.

I agree. Templarv is definitely overpowered compared to all the other classes.

Ksariyu

FlipFlopFrog wrote: »

They pretty much all lack identity because that's the nature of how ESO was built from the start unfortunately. They decided to move away from the classic MMO archetype/roles and said "everyone can do everything!" which is why we are currently limited to only six classes that all essentially do the same thing to a degree. IMHO it would've been way cooler if they had given us many more classes to choose from but they each do a specialized role in combat.

I have to disagree with this, even though we both have the same issue I think. Personally, I think it was a smart decision to let each class fill each role. The problem I think comes from how the did it - rather than go full-force and let each class perform their role differently (For example, DKs need better/more damage shields for healers, NBs need more evasion-focused skills to tank), they just gave them a couple generic skills that work nearly identical to every other class, and then made the generic weapon/world skills infinitely better so everyone would use those anyway. On the flip side. . .

frnic wrote: »

ESO has always been oriented to design your character however you want. The idea for me was to break out of the traditional Trinity (Tank, DPS, Heal) and experiment with other groups - sadly that mostly doesn't happen. I guess people are resistant to change.

I have played (since beta 2013) almost exclusively RPG soloing PVE. I never play PVP. And I completely enjoy experimenting with various odd ball combinations.

I really understand your frustration here, because I find myself in the same boat. Unfortunately, the more I've thought about it, the more I've come to realize that the game's stat scaling means no combination of hybrid builds will reach the same effectiveness as a pure damage character being buffed by a pure support (Among other issues). I do wish though there was more room for uniquely optimized group compositions.

Drdeath20

joerginger wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Templar.

2 of the ultimates are inferior in almost every way to world ultimates or just world skills. Laying a blood ritual down allows you to move around and do other healing where templars healing ultimate makes you a motionless statue.

Solar disturbance is forever known and the weaker morph of solar prism. It’s effect that makes it unique is useless in pve and very niche for pvp.

Half of their skills are never worth slotting.

Radiant aura is a back bar skill with front bar buffs. It’s primary function is not effective bcz the minor magicka steal can only be used from 1 target and it’s new effect (increased radius) is nice but more of a token gesture in long boss fights. Players rarely need minor magicka steal in trash mob fight’s especially since the meta armor sets give it passively. In reality ele drain does the same thing and applies an important debuff.

There is never a time to ever slot Explosive charge. The stub from focused charge has much more use. Damaging multiple targets is not a desirable morph as opposed to a almost guaranteed stun.

The other morph of vamps bane (reflective light) that effects multiple targets falls in the same category.

Blazing shield has been weakened soo many times and even lost more power with the nerf/change to burning light.

They might just need to go back to the drawing board with Eclipse and morphs. Same goes for healing ritual and morphs.

Alright I’m losing steam here but the point being that the class is littered by skills not worth slotting bcz the alternatives are just more practical or powerful.

I agree. Templarv is definitely overpowered compared to all the other classes.

Ha, I see what you did there! I agree with you Templars absolutely are chalk full of unused skills. Great point in that we should audit the least used skills/morphs in the game and handle it

MindOfTheSwarm

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Templar.

2 of the ultimates are inferior in almost every way to world ultimates or just world skills. Laying a blood ritual down allows you to move around and do other healing where templars healing ultimate makes you a motionless statue.

Solar disturbance is forever known and the weaker morph of solar prism. It’s effect that makes it unique is useless in pve and very niche for pvp.

Half of their skills are never worth slotting.

Radiant aura is a back bar skill with front bar buffs. It’s primary function is not effective bcz the minor magicka steal can only be used from 1 target and it’s new effect (increased radius) is nice but more of a token gesture in long boss fights. Players rarely need minor magicka steal in trash mob fight’s especially since the meta armor sets give it passively. In reality ele drain does the same thing and applies an important debuff.

There is never a time to ever slot Explosive charge. The stub from focused charge has much more use. Damaging multiple targets is not a desirable morph as opposed to a almost guaranteed stun.

The other morph of vamps bane (reflective light) that effects multiple targets falls in the same category.

Blazing shield has been weakened soo many times and even lost more power with the nerf/change to burning light.

They might just need to go back to the drawing board with Eclipse and morphs. Same goes for healing ritual and morphs.

Alright I’m losing steam here but the point being that the class is littered by skills not worth slotting bcz the alternatives are just more practical or powerful.

Reflective Light is better than Vamps bane. Vamps bane just gives a small duration increase. Whereas, reflective light applies to multiple targets. Ranged magplars are a thing you know.

francesinhalover

Stam sorc needs morphs.

Identity... Id say all outside atam dk, stam sorc , stam warden.