One Way to Increase the Engagement of Objective Modes in Battlegrounds

thesarahandcompany

Over the last several years, heated debate has taken place across Tamriel about how queues for battlegrounds should be organized. One of the main complaints with objective modes (domination, capture the relic, chaos ball and crazy kind) by some players is that they incentivize avoiding combat. For example, in domination there are five flags on the map. At any point, a player could disengage, reactively or proactively, from a potential fight to capture a flag that has no opponents on it.

With the assumption that objective modes leave less than desirable conditions for combat to occur, I propose adding elite NPC enemies into battlegrounds to provide a buffer for excessive free-capping. This includes NPCs that are similar to guards on flags in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. This would essentially put a "wall" up to where an individual cannot avoid combat an entire battleground. At the very least, they must engage in combat with NPCs and thus making flag capturing more time-intensive and require APM.

mmtaniac

Sometimes avoid combat is tactic manuvear, if you can't kill enemy how can you fight with him tell me how? You just ignore him , this is not problem with fighting and lack in fighting it's problem with game balance and unkillable builds. Ignore fight is easier and work better than fighting with wall. You see in deathmatch matchmaking , too many unkillable builds make game feel sh... and worse. People ask for working mmr wchich is impossible in this game. Not enough players and queues will be too long. Class balance , overall game balance and limit to class as healer ,tank or dps. Dps should die faster not survive atom bomb. Tank shouldn't deal THAT MUCH damage. Only healers somehow work but some heal builds still deal too much damage.

Bashev

All modes with a permanent fixed flag/base should be converted to 2 teams.

Crazy king and chaos ball could work as a 3 teams modes. DM should stay as a 3 team mode.

Saying that there is not enough players and that is why the matchmaking system is terrible is so wrong. There are tons of PvE players and the dudgeon party making system is terrible too. When something is *** it is ***, you cannnot hide it, it smells.

Maybe if ZoS finds a way to track some stats and use them for the party making we can have way better experience.

mmtaniac

Capture the relic as two teams would be nice ,but 6 players per team.

Deathmatch is less balanced mode , should be tracked somehow on some classes is just easier to gain points. Or more frequent class balance patches.

Chaos ball should require to stay in ball range to get points ,the more players in ball range the faster you get points.

Capture The flag ,less flags not five at the same time at late game. Two - three should be max at the same time.

hafgood

No, battlegrounds do not need NPC's on the flags, I play battlegrounds to play the objectives or to kill people (deathmatch).

Putting NPC's on flags makes it even easier for those who just want evey game to be a deathmatch to be a deathmatch as they have extra defenders on the flags. So instead of taking a flag I'd have to kill NPC's giving the deathmatch specialists time to get back to the flag to kill me?

No thanks.

And leave it as 3 teams, it gives more opportunity to win, for instance with relic games its a lot easier to defend your relic if there is only one team after it, lot harder where there are two which gives relic runners the chance to nip in and grab it. Two teams would lead to a lot of 15 minute stalemates

Pepegrillos

Other MMORPGs have bgs with objective modes that work effectively. The biggest difference I think is made by map design. You can look at Arathi Basin or Warsong Gulch in WoW, and you'll notice that there is simply no way of getting to the objectives without encountering the enemy in your path. PvP in those maps cannot be avoided unless all the parties involved decide to ignore each other. But that is seldom the case. And if it were the case, there would be basically nothing to stop it.

Necrotech_Master

i like objective modes because you have to be more tactical

have to know when you need to push flags vs defend flags in domination, and know when to stick as a group or spread out

objective combat should not require 2 players fighting to complete the objective

if you are good at combat you can push flags easier

relic games with 3 teams requires some coordination, people to run relics and people to defend your relic, if you move as a ball, the 3rd team is going to steal your relic since its ungaurded

this is why deathmatch is my least favorite mode, there are no tactics, just ball up and mow down stragglers from the other teams fighting, no way for an "underdog" to even have a chance of winning

Urvoth

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i like objective modes because you have to be more tactical

have to know when you need to push flags vs defend flags in domination, and know when to stick as a group or spread out

objective combat should not require 2 players fighting to complete the objective

if you are good at combat you can push flags easier

relic games with 3 teams requires some coordination, people to run relics and people to defend your relic, if you move as a ball, the 3rd team is going to steal your relic since its ungaurded

this is why deathmatch is my least favorite mode, there are no tactics, just ball up and mow down stragglers from the other teams fighting, no way for an "underdog" to even have a chance of winning

That statement just shows you either don’t play bgs much or haven’t ever played high mmr dm, cause that’s not at all what dm is like at the higher lvls. It’s the most tactical game mode by far, with positioning, coordination, 3rd partying, pushing, etc., all being the difference between winning and getting wiped over and over. If you’ve never played high mmr dm or dm with 3 premades, you probably haven’t experienced “real dm.” Every decision you make can be the difference and you can easily win a game off 1 coordinated push or snowball your team into multiple wipes if you’re caught out.

Necrotech_Master

Urvoth wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i like objective modes because you have to be more tactical

have to know when you need to push flags vs defend flags in domination, and know when to stick as a group or spread out

objective combat should not require 2 players fighting to complete the objective

if you are good at combat you can push flags easier

relic games with 3 teams requires some coordination, people to run relics and people to defend your relic, if you move as a ball, the 3rd team is going to steal your relic since its ungaurded

this is why deathmatch is my least favorite mode, there are no tactics, just ball up and mow down stragglers from the other teams fighting, no way for an "underdog" to even have a chance of winning

That statement just shows you either don’t play bgs much or haven’t ever played high mmr dm, cause that’s not at all what dm is like at the higher lvls. It’s the most tactical game mode by far, with positioning, coordination, 3rd partying, pushing, etc., all being the difference between winning and getting wiped over and over. If you’ve never played high mmr dm or dm with 3 premades, you probably haven’t experienced “real dm.” Every decision you make can be the difference and you can easily win a game off 1 coordinated push or snowball your team into multiple wipes if you’re caught out.

well your not wrong there, im definitely on the more casual side when it comes to BGs (in fact i havent even played one since october because i dont enjoy deathmatches, a game here or there is OK)

everything needs to be coordinated/strategized for bursts/negates to actually get the kills, wrong positioning or mistakes will get you killed easy, so i know there are tactics, i just dont find that kind of thing to be enjoyable for a quick battleground (if i wanted to just get kills i would go to cyrodiil)

i usually participate in BGs for fun with friends, but im not into the super competitive pvp, i know there are people with pvp meta builds that will easily kill me (ive also had my share of BG matches when matched with people well below my skill level and ended games with high K/D ratios in the range of like ~20 kills and <5 deaths, i think i once had a 25 kill 0 death match on a PVE focused stamplar build)

Dem_kitkats1

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i like objective modes because you have to be more tactical

have to know when you need to push flags vs defend flags in domination, and know when to stick as a group or spread out

objective combat should not require 2 players fighting to complete the objective

if you are good at combat you can push flags easier

relic games with 3 teams requires some coordination, people to run relics and people to defend your relic, if you move as a ball, the 3rd team is going to steal your relic since its ungaurded

this is why deathmatch is my least favorite mode, there are no tactics, just ball up and mow down stragglers from the other teams fighting, no way for an "underdog" to even have a chance of winning

I enjoy objective modes too, but I agree with others that the modes need to be reworked a bit. As they are now you really don't need to employ that many tactics, if any at all, to be successful and that's why many players don't. IMHO I think that for the size of the maps larger teams would be more beneficial. I think there should be a reduction in the number of flags in the land grab games as you can run around the maps without seeing a soul. I think capture the relic could be much more engaging and tactful by changing the design of it. Perhaps add more relics that you can capture, but for lower points, extra points if you capture another team's relic. I think Chasoball should be entirely scrapped. If you're not the one tanking the ball, then the rest of gameplay is just a giant deathmatch anyway.

Deathmatch has its own problems and truly needs to be its own thing. I think the biggest problem is that they should get rid of the current MMR and have ranked and unranked modes. This would allow the sweaties to be competitive without steamrolling inexperienced players, as well as truly put them on a more equal playing field. If the sweaties chose to join an unranked match, then they know what kind of team they may get and have no excuse to be snarky about it. And if they do it to farm kills it's not saying much about their skill. This would allow inexperienced/casual players to be able to play in a less intimidating and competitive environment, which may help increase the population. However, the leaderboard for ranked would have to be changed and the rewards would have to be very incentivizing and prestigious (perhaps new and unique titles for achieving the top positions on the leaderboard, as well as a skin or mount, etc. There should also be good rewards for just participating).

gariondavey

Objective modes need reworking!

FreeMaN_A

I think the only mode that rewarding avoiding combat is Crazy King. From my experience the most efficient tactic there (especially at the late stage) is just to run to the new point instead of protecting yours or trying to take an enemy point. In other modes winning without combat is only a result of tactic mistakes not because of game mode bad design.
How to rework Crazy King?
1. Give instant some extra scores for capturing ENEMY(not free just spawned) control point.
2. Delay point`s despawn if there was an it`s owner change.
3. The longer team controls the point, more score it will get. For example 1 score for first 10 sec, 2 score for next 10 sec etc.
This will encourage to attack enemy points and protect yours instead of just running and waiting for new point to spawn.
Oh, and in some maps there is a places that can be exploited in Chaos Ball which should be fixed.

M0ntie

And what is wrong with avoiding combat if that is the smart way and actually playing the BG mode that you are in??? Pay attention to what the objectives of the game are and play them. It is good to have some variety. And there are plenty of opportunities to just go kill every other player you see.

Ratharel

To the OP: No need to change anything. Just like in the real-world conflicts, the objectives of the mission counts, not the number of enemy soldiers killed during the mission. If you can achieve that with minimal combat, that fine.
And if you want the mindless slaughter, you already have deathmatch for that.

thesarahandcompany

mmtaniac wrote: »

Sometimes avoid combat is tactic manuvear, if you can't kill enemy how can you fight with him tell me how? You just ignore him , this is not problem with fighting and lack in fighting it's problem with game balance and unkillable builds. Ignore fight is easier and work better than fighting with wall. You see in deathmatch matchmaking , too many unkillable builds make game feel sh... and worse. People ask for working mmr wchich is impossible in this game. Not enough players and queues will be too long. Class balance , overall game balance and limit to class as healer ,tank or dps. Dps should die faster not survive atom bomb. Tank shouldn't deal THAT MUCH damage. Only healers somehow work but some heal builds still deal too much damage.

It's not a "sometimes" things in objective modes. The only thing you need to do in objectives is avoid combat. Which is pretty silly of a game mode. You get people who run around with 18k hp and purely avoid any conflict. In objective modes its never the goal to fight. And with deathmatch soon to be only ONE out of FIVE possible modes, I wouldn't be surprised if deathmatch players once again treat even objective modes as deathmatch modes. So we're right back to square one.

That being said, revamping the objective modes and adding extra layers to stymie PvFlag and press "w" would increase engagement and be a reasonable compromise between two differing playerbases.

NagualV

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Sometimes avoid combat is tactic manuvear, if you can't kill enemy how can you fight with him tell me how? You just ignore him , this is not problem with fighting and lack in fighting it's problem with game balance and unkillable builds. Ignore fight is easier and work better than fighting with wall. You see in deathmatch matchmaking , too many unkillable builds make game feel sh... and worse. People ask for working mmr wchich is impossible in this game. Not enough players and queues will be too long. Class balance , overall game balance and limit to class as healer ,tank or dps. Dps should die faster not survive atom bomb. Tank shouldn't deal THAT MUCH damage. Only healers somehow work but some heal builds still deal too much damage.

That being said, revamping the objective modes and adding extra layers to stymie PvFlag and press "w" would increase engagement and be a reasonable compromise between two differing playerbases.

I completely agree with you.

With that said, I honestly believe the objective playerbase doesnt want to compromise.Revamping the objective modes as you suggest(I agree with you btw) would lead them all back here to the forums, complaining about how they miss the old days when "tactics" mattered, not "mindless skill less slaughter"

They enjoy not having to fight other players. The same people that quit playing during the DM only tests would quit as soon as they have to fight someone.....

Just my opinion

FreeMaN_A

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

The only thing you need to do in objectives is avoid combat. Which is pretty silly of a game mode

The only such mode is Crazy King. And I wrote above suggestions to rework it.

Bashev

FreeMaN_A wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

The only thing you need to do in objectives is avoid combat. Which is pretty silly of a game mode

The only such mode is Crazy King. And I wrote above suggestions to rework it.

Another problem with 3 teams BGs is that if someone does not want to play objectives and just want to kill players, he/she can block 1-2 players from a team. Then that fight could be not close to an objective and these 2 players are totally blocked. It is not easy to disengage combat in ESO if u are with a wrong build. Then one of the teams has great advantage as 3 players from the other 2 teams are not doing objectives.