Short and Simple:

merpins

If you're a dps and you queue as a tank, it's to cut in line period. If you could queue as dps and get into random dailies quickly, then no one would fake tank and fake tanking wouldn't be an issue because no one would do it. You wouldn't be doing it because there wouldn't even be a thought to do it. You can't justify it for this or that reason; if you had no problem waiting in line, you'd wait in line. It might not be a problem for some people, but it turns into a problem enough for people to not like it when people do it. I won't ask you to stop, but I'll ask you this: if someone cut in line in front of you at the grocery store, wouldn't you feel bad about it? Now, what if the person who cut you didn't bring enough money to buy what they cut you in line for? Worse, right? This is basically that concept, which is why people are unhappy about it.

SkaraMinoc

Yes, I agree.

I thought it was obvious. Let's see what the results say.

El_Borracho

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

I'm fine with real tanks cutting in front of me at the grocery store.

sarahthes

I do it to make the line shorter for the DDs who have been queued for much longer than I have. After all, if I didn't queue as a fake tank, then there's 3 dds in line instead of 2, and it takes longer for all of us.

Jusey1

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

I agree if the person is a pure DPS build without any taunt, protection, etc. However, some people who have solo builds can perform a DPS or tank role (but won't fully excel at either due to their build requiring to be a hybrid for soloing dungeons).

Feaky

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

The reason DPS have long queues is because there isn't enough tanks and healers. Characters with DPS builds queuing as tanks remove people from the crowded dps queue and move to the depleted tank queue. If it wasn't for those folks, queues would be even longer for dps characters. That said, if you queue as a tank, you should play the role of a tank which means staying alive on pulls, taunting, etc.

That said, much of the content doesn't require set groups anyways. I see this as an issue mostly with vet dungeons.

VaranisArano

(At least, slot a taunt.)

Jaimeh

'Other' option, and to continue with the analogy: the tank is a DD with a taunt, so now they transform to a person who cut in front of all the line in the store, but has a super power to put people's groceries away fast, so the line moves faster for everyone.

Adremal

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

It's not the same concept if the person cutting the line ends up speeding it up or making things more comfortable. Which as far as I'm concerned in normal means:

1) Asking if someone needs the quest and/or is interested in the lore (dialogue, speaking stones and such);
2) Swapping the Fire/Lightning CW with the Ice one, Slotting Inner Beast and in some cases Silver Leash;
3) Stacking trash and melting stuff while never dying (the same can be done in most vets without even needing to visit the Armory, or with a 30 seconds back and forth trip to the house where the Armory and Mundus stones are in case of DLC vets and/or HMs that are better with a full tank setup; queues typically drag because they lack tanks, so that's also a way to "shorten the line").

Grandchamp1989

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

Personly I think the problem is a bit more nuanced.

- Is the person queing for vet or normal?

normal is designed for a lvl 10 with no gear, experience or anything. a CP 1000 will likely do a much better job than a level 10 trying to navigate the dungeon for the first time.

- Is the person queing respectful? As in he doesn't completely ditch the whole team, solo sprint directly to the end boss kill it and leave. Will he wait for people who say they have quest or ignore them?

- Does he have a taunt equipped or not?

- Is the "tank" a liability? Is the "tank" able to keep himself alive or does he die every fight?


For me personly if I'm in a normal dungeon and get a CP1000 who blast through direfrost keep -with- the team I don't mind. But if the person is very entitled and think he's superior, sprint ahead and try to rambo everything by himself I'm not a fan of that approach. It's group content afterall.

redspecter23

Yes, I agree.

If they slot a taunt and use it in normals (and don't die) then they aren't a fake in my book. You jump the queue on a pure dps without the decency to slot a taunt, you're cutting without even doing the bare minimum.

El_Borracho

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

You don't need a tank in normal base dungeons. I've "tanked" many normal DLC dungeons by slotting a taunt on a pure DPS build when the real, albeit ineffective, tank DIED and I got tired of having to wait to res him/her in the middle of the boss fight.

There are fake tanks, fake healers, and fake DPS. I don't care if they waited their turn or cut in line. I just ask them to be below average, at worst, because I don't run random normals with the intention of spending a lot of time in there.

sajackson

From what I've seen grumpy tanks are far worse than fake tanks.

EdmondDontes

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

If you're a dps and you queue as a tank, it's to cut in line period. If you could queue as dps and get into random dailies quickly, then no one would fake tank and fake tanking wouldn't be an issue because no one would do it. You wouldn't be doing it because there wouldn't even be a thought to do it. You can't justify it for this or that reason; if you had no problem waiting in line, you'd wait in line. It might not be a problem for some people, but it turns into a problem enough for people to not like it when people do it. I won't ask you to stop, but I'll ask you this: if someone cut in line in front of you at the grocery store, wouldn't you feel bad about it? Now, what if the person who cut you didn't bring enough money to buy what they cut you in line for? Worse, right? This is basically that concept, which is why people are unhappy about it.

Fake tanking is not a significant issue to be concerned with.

francesinhalover

Yes, I agree.

Its insane how people defend this [snip]
I enjoy dlc dungs on normal, yes even scale caller and finding a fake tank just just [snip]
To make things worse 80% of them don't even have a taunt. Legit [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

francesinhalover

Yes, I agree.

EdmondDontes wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

If you're a dps and you queue as a tank, it's to cut in line period. If you could queue as dps and get into random dailies quickly, then no one would fake tank and fake tanking wouldn't be an issue because no one would do it. You wouldn't be doing it because there wouldn't even be a thought to do it. You can't justify it for this or that reason; if you had no problem waiting in line, you'd wait in line. It might not be a problem for some people, but it turns into a problem enough for people to not like it when people do it. I won't ask you to stop, but I'll ask you this: if someone cut in line in front of you at the grocery store, wouldn't you feel bad about it? Now, what if the person who cut you didn't bring enough money to buy what they cut you in line for? Worse, right? This is basically that concept, which is why people are unhappy about it.

Fake tanking is not a significant issue to be concerned with.

True man, i just wait 20-30 mins in queue to enter a dlc dung and find a useless dd there.
I would tottaly not! rather desconect on eso 4 times during those 30 mins waiting than have to deal with that [snip] issue

[edited for profanity bypass]

ApoAlaia

Option 'C' (Other):

Remove the role requirements for the 'Random Normal' queue.

No more incentivising antisocial behaviour and the insufferable mental gymnastics players use to try to justify it.

Fizzyapple

Yes, I agree.

The queue isn't that long. I just go finish a quest or harvest some materials. I go play the game. The worst part is that they are not ever apologetic even when they wipe. They sprint skip and wipe. My heart goes out to all those poor newbs I have watched follow them to their sometimes multiple demises. When I see a fake tank I just leave the group now. I'm tired of it.

colossalvoids

Would depend on what fake tank is for you, some peeps are overly sensitive to this topic and fake tank is literally everything to them. But if that's a really bad DD without a taunt then sure thing. Calling out people who are dd's with a taunt or can even burn stuff fast enough themselves to not cause anyone to die it's whole another talk. Isn't that "play how you want" thingie a lot of people are screaming about?

One is cut in line before the surgeon and screw up entire operation, the other one is cut in line before the doctor and make a surgery right because you're capable of it. Queue times are lot faster nowadays because of fake roles, can't say clear rates in rnd any different nowadays, probably even more successful cause all the power creep.

BronzeCaiman

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

DPS is the majority of the players, dps is also the only role a robot can do better, DPS mains are prideful and enemies in this game are just brick walls, the content need to be nerfed across the board in terms of life bars.

If you want to push mechs give bosses invincibility until the mech is done, it worked in Ruins of Mazzatun with the Behemoth boss.

Sometimes I think that people just want to run around and say I'm better than you in PvE, so its Player vs Everyone else these days, of course co-op play is going down the drain.

Now if you can no death single player arenas, that's something worthy of praise.

ShalidorsHeir

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

dont get me wrong, if this is about vet dungeons -> i agree. For normal i dont give a [snip] i do them alone in the worst case i simplye need to queue to get the rewards. Other than that 4 DDs on normal are less of a time waste then 2 DDs + not needed tank and healer. -> they they bring more than enough money. So the question is just about the difficulty of that content.

[edited for profanity bypass]

MindOfTheSwarm

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

The issue is the content not the players. If a tank isn’t needed and we are not dying I’m ok with it. What I’m not ok with is when a fake tank lets his team mates die and he solos everything. This is selfish as repairing gear costs gold. So in short, for non DLC normal dungeons it’s fine. Anything DLC, not fine.

I actually suggested a fix for this in another post. Simply add bonuses and penalties for roles.

Tank: Reduce your damage taken by 30% Reduce your damage dealt by 50%.

DPS: Increase your damage dealt by 20%. Reduce your healing done by 50%.

Healer: Increase your healing done by 20%. Reduce your damage dealt by 30%.

markulrich1966

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

they help the other DDs avoiding long waiting queues, so it is a selfless, altruistic act.

Larcomar

As ever, if people are doing this for the random bonus, they're probably doing it on normal. You don't need a dedicated tank for those. And you don't really wont one because it's complete overkill on the tankiness and contributes nothing to what is often god awful group dps.

Should people "fake tank?" No - I agree entirely its queue jumping. But a dps can do a perfectly adequate job tanking a normal if they make some changes to their build? Sure. What that looks like is debatable - I like a dps focused heavy armor set like say medusa with a snb back bar - but others prob do it fine just slotting inner light and caltrops.

sajackson

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Option 'C' (Other):

Remove the role requirements for the 'Random Normal' queue.

No more incentivising antisocial behaviour and the insufferable mental gymnastics players use to try to justify it.

It's pretty clear this would cause more problems than it solves. New & lower level players will be more likely to be running Random Normal dungeons than any other type of combat - why force a handful of level 10 - 40s to gamble on if they get a proper healer or tank and ultimately end up wasting a lot of time?

If you we're going to do this it would have to be locked to level 50 and possibly even CP 160 plus, but personally I don't think this is a very well thought out solution at all.

sajackson

Of course the real solution to the problem would be for more people to run healers and tanks, but natually everybody wants to run DD....

Mushroomancer

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

Don't even know why I am responding to this, but here goes.
First of all, the premise of the thread is incorrect, or at the least incomplete. Yes, you can argue that one of the reasons why people queue as tank even though they are dps is to "cut in line", but that's not the whole picture.
A second reason, and one I would consider even more important, is the fact that, if we are talking normal dungeons (and even some veteran base-game ones), tanks and healers are not required, and 4 DDS just get the job done quicker. Now I don't know about you, but once I have experienced a dungeon for the first time, I'd like to move things along, especially if it's for farming transmutes and sets. I can appreciate the fact that there may be newbies wanting to follow the quest and stare at every inch of the amazing textures that dungeons have to offer, but quite frankly, rnd is not the place for that, [snip]
Not to mention the fact that I genuinely cannot stand playing healer and tank in randoms because of the "DDs" I get, with their astounding 2-5k dps. And I'm not a good DD, I'm an absolutely lousy one, but I swear, some people deal such low damage that they either must not have functioning keyboards or they must be hitting keys at random. And I am guessing this sentiment must be widespread as I am adamant it's one of the reasons why there are so few tanks and healers out there, which, if you hadn't noticed, kinda contributes to the fact that DD queues are so long, because everyone of us would much rather contribute to the dps than sit there watching people play like infants.
So, to answer your question with a question: if you were in line at a grocery store, and right as your turn comes, the guy behind you grabs you from your shirt collar and keeps you there and insists to pay for the stuff you bought, even though he can't count past ten, wouldn't you be even just slightly annoyed?

The only grounds I can agree with you on is people fake tanking Vet DLC dungeons. In that context it is a problem, but I can't say it's a big one (I think I haven't seen a fake tank in Vet DLC dungeons in months, maybe more than a year).

Also, it really annoys me how most of these threads fail to realize that the real problem is the content. If the content were genuinely challenging, with mechanics that actually reward role specialization, and not just stacking dps, things would be different. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

sajackson

Mushroomancer wrote: »

... I can appreciate the fact that there may be newbies wanting to follow the quest and stare at every inch of the amazing textures that dungeons have to offer, but quite frankly, rnd is not the place for that, [snip]...

This is the problem right here in a nutshell. Random Normal Dungeons are exactly the kind of content and place for newbies and lower level characters because the content is easy for new players to get into, it offers great rewards and, if I'm being honest, shows off some of the best aspects of the game.

The trouble is we have a bunch of high-level high-geared players who just want to turn this content in their own personal CP and item farm and are basically trying to bully the rest of the community into permitting this.

I'm frustrated because I was told that ESO has one of the best communities amongst the MMOs, especially when it comes to providing help to new players coming into the game. [snip] We should be looking for ways to help people get into the game, not walling off content from them.

What's next - you can't run a normal random dungeon unless you're doing 20k dps? I mean come-on that's just clearly not how ZOS intended the content to be used.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

perfiction

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

if someone cut in line in front of you at the grocery store, wouldn't you feel bad about it? Now, what if the person who cut you didn't bring enough money to buy what they cut you in line for? Worse, right? This is basically that concept, which is why people are unhappy about it.

If you really want to focus on queue aspect... If you're a DPS and you queue as a tank, you "cut in line" of other tanks (and this line does not even exist, because when you queue as a tank you literally get ready check right after clicking Join Queue). You impact DDs queue in a positive way - they find a tank (fake, but still, role matters) faster thanks to all those fake tanks filling up real tank gaps.

Mushroomancer

No, I don't agree, and here's why:

sajackson wrote: »

Mushroomancer wrote: »

... I can appreciate the fact that there may be newbies wanting to follow the quest and stare at every inch of the amazing textures that dungeons have to offer, but quite frankly, rnd is not the place for that, [snip]...

This is the problem right here in a nutshell. Random Normal Dungeons are exactly the kind of content and place for newbies and lower level characters because the content is easy for new players to get into, it offers great rewards and, if I'm being honest, shows off some of the best aspects of the game.

I think you are under the impression that I want newbies to not be able to play in RNDs. That's not the case, I agree that newbies should be able to enjoy random dungeons (even though I will say, I think normal dungeons do a lousy job at teaching game mechanics, they can be completely ignored, even by lowbie characters). What I don't appreciate is the opposite of what people complain about, which is players taking way too much time to do absolutely anything during runs. Of course, that doesn't mean I will vote-kick them the instant I see this behavior, especially if it's forewarned (seriously, just type in chat that you need to do the quest or that you want to take it slow for some reason, and I will oblige), but I am seriously amazed at the fact that a lot of people seriously expect others to be able to read their damned minds. No, I don't know what brings you into a random dungeon automatically. Are you farming? Are you a newbie on their first character? Are you a selfish hardcarry rusher/turtle that is gonna waste everyone's time? If you see that things aren't going the way you want them to, just press that litte Enter button and type in chat. At worst you're gonna get a verbal complaint from a person you're never gonna see again.

sajackson wrote: »

The trouble is we have a bunch of high-level high-geared players who just want to turn this content in their own personal CP and item farm and are basically trying to bully the rest of the community into permitting this.

The main issue is that we are debating over content that is supposed to cater to pretty much everyone, so every type of player involved is gonna have their grievances with it. Besides, "high-level, high-geared players" are "getting bullied" (please don't equate you getting hardcarried through a repeatable activity in an online game to actual physical and psychological abuse, pretty please) into having to wait in line and experience slow dungeon runs by players that have more free time than they know what to do with. It's just a matter of perspective, nobody is entirely in the right here.
As I said a bunch of times in other threads, I think a step forward would be a "Solo/Quest" queue, so that anyone interested in experiencing dungeons slowly can do so, and everyone else can get to their CP grind, and set/achievement farming.

sajackson wrote: »

I'm frustrated because I was told that ESO has one of the best communities amongst the MMOs, especially when it comes to providing help to new players coming into the game. [snip] We should be looking for ways to help people get into the game, not walling off content from them.

Considering that apparently the majority of the playerbase barely participates in group content, I think those new players are gonna be ok if some random endgame player blasts through a dungeon and gives them free xp. Also the community, like most other communities, has good and bad people in it, and having somebody faking a role doesn't instantly make the community bad or unwelcoming. Hell look at PvP, I'm sure it's filled with amazing people, but from what I've heard from close friends, and my, albeit limited experience, it's gatekeeping central. Point is, not everyone is gonna be taking you through a pleasant stroll over the entirety of the game while firmly holding onto your hand. New players should be welcomed, and I think the community does a decent job at it, a few people fake-tanking doesn't change that in the slightest.

sajackson wrote: »

What's next - you can't run a normal random dungeon unless you're doing 20k dps? I mean come-on that's just clearly not how ZOS intended the content to be used.

Well, since you get random people in, you know, random dungeons, I don't expect people to have 20k dps, but when I see 1000+ CP players (yes I know CP doesn't equal skill, and yadda yadda) just heavy attacking everything, simply because they like to see cool lightning shooting out of their staff, I will get ever-so-slightly peeved, and I don't think that's an abnormal reaction to have, especially when I see this crap in vet instances.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Fake tanks aren't nearly as annoying as forum threads about fake tanks. Just my 2 cents.