ZOS, would it be too much to ask?

MoreTune · January 2022

CP does not equate proficiency in this game.

ZOS needs to implement a sort of “training grounds” or “MINIMUM 30k DPS parse on a training dummy” or some other DPS check before someone can queue into veteran content as a damage dealer role. This can even be account wide for all I care. It shows that at least on one toon, someone displays the proficiency to deal enough damage/basic rotation knowledge to complete a veteran dungeon.

There is such a huge jump in difficulty between veteran content and normal/overland content. And majority of casual players do not see a difference. No one enjoys being in a veteran dungeon for an hour because people lack basic knowledge about their builds or how to deal efficient damage. I don’t even care about dungeon mechanics at this point because that can be explained in real time.

Not only will this decrease the saturation and queue times for DDs, but will lead to more successful runs. Maybe it will encourage more people to play support roles if they can not dish out a damage rotation.

And before I’m called an elitist who is not letting people play the game how they want. Keep in mind veteran content is literally called “Veteran” it is meant to be challenging, especially in DLCs,
and frankly, I am being generous with 30k judging that just spamming light attacks should yield about 10k in a properly geared DD.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

Necrotech_Master · January 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

ArchMikem · January 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

You underestimate the lengths people would go to in order to bypass a check or block, while still refusing to actually learn. They would realize they'd only have to down a dummy five times and take however long needed to get it done and then they'd go into Dungeons without having made any progress on rotation or skill use or build optimizing. Your suggestion is basically turning the check into another Daily Quest. I'd also more support an actual DPS number requirement, though I'd put it at 25k instead of 30k.

_Zathras_ · January 2022

Guild groups. Friends. Those all fix the "problem of having to suffer under-performing players."

Honestly. This topic comes up so often, and the solution for people like the OP has been in the game since launch. Heck, it's been there for 20 years.

Content should be accessible, not gated behind an arbitrary test so that some people can clear content faster.

Everyone had to learn some time. Even the OP. They started off not being able to clear something, or wiping, and probably rinse and repeating those quite a few times. Everyone did.

Just because you've run a dungeon a couple of hundred times, and have been playing your class for years, doesn't mean Joe Blow PUG guy 2341 has. So cut them some slack.

Want fast runs? Find people that meet your expectations.

redspecter23 · January 2022

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Guild groups. Friends. Those all fix the "problem of having to suffer under-performing players."

Honestly. This topic comes up so often, and the solution for people like the OP has been in the game since launch. Heck, it's been there for 20 years.

Content should be accessible, not gated behind an arbitrary test so that some people can clear content faster.

Agreed. For some reason, people want the queue to do what guilds, friends or even picking up players in zone can already do for them. It must be some desire to press a single button instead of getting to know a bit about the players in your group beforehand.

We're getting to the point where we want to remove as much communication as possible in favor of more automation, but still want that automation to provide subjective traits for grouping.

With that bit of snarkiness out of the way, we definitely have players that are not capable of content, queueing into that content. I think we need to explore that core issue a bit more and there is definitely some merit to that conversation. Players very often are just simply not aware of their own capability or lack thereof. We are denied tools in game (intentionally) by ZOS in order to protect the feelings of players. No inspect option. No in game dps meters. No in game training outside of the 5 minute tutorial. In an effort to protect players, ZOS is potentially hurting them long term as the realization finally hits when they queue into that vet dungeon. Those players then consider the endgame community toxic and might even stop playing because they have no metric to determine that they might be underperforming at all outside of addons.

Adremal · January 2022

What use is a sheer DPS check when a dead DD's DPS is 0? Vet pug killers are due to mechanics except for a couple, we're not talking about pugging DLCH vHMs or trifectas.
Dummies don't do rune dances, they don't have lasers or invulnerability phases that break on conditions. I'd rather have a "completed vMA and vVH" requirement than an arbitrary dummy check. Of course that's not reasonable, but neither is an arbitrary number, because people have different opinions on how fast things should go, and the numbers required simply vary by encounter. Not to mention the oneshot mechanics. Or the non-DLC HMs that are pugged for pledges such as "leave 3 Daedroths alive" and yet people burn them down.
There's simply no way of knowing how a player will perform, so if there's gonna be a gate, I'd go for... something like "at least 50 vMA and 50 vVH completed". They are solo content so people can't be carried through it, and the mechanics are almost varied enough.
Honestly, I'd rather make up for the lack of DPS and write down the mechanics should I get incapacitated (Ulfnor's ghost chains for instance) with the other DPS not knowing what to do. And even that wouldn't break the encounter because resurrections (I'd still write "you're supposed to kill the ghost" or something). But no, an arbitrary number just doesn't sit well with me as a form of gating. CP, DPS, neither are indicative, I've seen too much absurdities. Some of which hilarious. So either no gating or 50/50 vet arenas gating.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

I cannot tell you how many times I have been in a GF dungeon and the tank goes, great DPS, nice run. Then one or both DPS say Thanks. Meanwhile, I look down and was pulling 85% of group damage and 95% of healing. LOL

jedtb16_ESO · January 2022

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Guild groups. Friends. Those all fix the "problem of having to suffer under-performing players."

Honestly. This topic comes up so often, and the solution for people like the OP has been in the game since launch. Heck, it's been there for 20 years.

Content should be accessible, not gated behind an arbitrary test so that some people can clear content faster.

Everyone had to learn some time. Even the OP. They started off not being able to clear something, or wiping, and probably rinse and repeating those quite a few times. Everyone did.

Just because you've run a dungeon a couple of hundred times, and have been playing your class for years, doesn't mean Joe Blow PUG guy 2341 has. So cut them some slack.

Want fast runs? Find people that meet your expectations.

^this.

no one starts knowing it all. everyone has to learn. help them along.

Necrotech_Master · January 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

Certainly nothing wrong with that. I learned to DPS on mammoths, back when 1k DPS was considered very strong. LOL

Most World bosses in the first 16 zones come down to a 1.8 million health dummy parse that requires a handful of blocks, roll dodges, and some sort of self healing. However, I do not think they are the best place to polish your rotation.

To me, a target dummy is akin to a musician practicing their scales, and end game vet content is playing in the symphony. Obviously there is more going on in the symphony, but if you cant play a decent scale, you aren't going to sound good when it matters.

[snip]

Absolutely, high DPS on a dummy doesnt mean you can pull it in actual content, but the correlation between the two is very high. What I am 100% sure about, if you cant do it on a dummy, you certainly cant do it when it counts.

I am also very much convinced that the more times you practice on a dummy, the better you will be. One of the reasons I said kill a dummy 5 times is that is about what it typically takes for me on a new build to break 100k (i.e. have the rotation down). I usually practice the rotation a few times on the 6 mil. Then I do 2-3 full pulls on a trial dummy without worrying about results, then a few pulls where I am micromanaging the little things like Openings, Executes, and ultimate usage. By the 5th or 6th pull, I am typically about where I expect to be. Now that of course is coming from someone that has killed that thing like a thousand times.

[Edited for Baiting]

Amottica · January 2022

I think a training system like we have in FF14 would be good. However, a dps requirement of 30k is not needed in most dungeons and players already have the ability to set such a requirement by forming one's own group which is very easy to do.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

Amottica wrote: »

I think a training system like we have in FF14 would be good. However, a dps requirement of 30k is not needed in most dungeons and players already have the ability to set such a requirement by forming one's own group which is very easy to do.

A training system would of course be great and certainly, forming your own group is always the solution to groupfinder woes.

However, I do think it is easy to get caught up in the distinction between what is technically required, and what is reasonable for a smooth run by 4 strangers without group coms. As an example, we were one of the first clears of vMOL HM back in the day. We had to do lunar phase, and I believe my DPS for the fight was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25k, which was middle of the pack for our group. While you could technically do that now with group DPS of say 200k, doesn't mean anyone would want to, and if they did, you are looking at months of progression. So while its technically possible at 25k, its not unreasonable to say that the baseline for that content should be much higher.

I doubt we ever see any type of hard DPS reqs in groupfinder, but they could certainly add suggestions for each dungeon in the GF window. 30k is overkill for vFG1, but if your group DPS is really only 60k (30k x 2), you are going to struggle very hard to clear a lot of Vet DLCs. If your DPS is 30k or less on live with how high damage currently is, I think its a fallacy to believe that the same person is going to ace every mechanic thrown their way.

jedtb16_ESO · January 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

fishing is rewarding, dummy parses are not.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

fishing is rewarding, dummy parses are not.

The parse might not be rewarding, but the leaderboard or trifecta it helps you get very much is. Never met a person that did either as a DPS that can say with a straight face that they have never used a target dummy. People forget how much damage went up the first patch after they introduced dummies. It wasn't because we got buffs from the patch, it was because target dummies are an excellent tool to increase damage, both from a testing and a proficiency standpoint.

If you have never used a dummy, i am very confident that your damage is mediocre at best (that is the proverbial you, not you specifically

)

StarOfElyon · January 2022

MoreTune wrote: »

CP does not equate proficiency in this game.

ZOS needs to implement a sort of “training grounds” or “MINIMUM 30k DPS parse on a training dummy” or some other DPS check before someone can queue into veteran content as a damage dealer role. This can even be account wide for all I care. It shows that at least on one toon, someone displays the proficiency to deal enough damage/basic rotation knowledge to complete a veteran dungeon.

There is such a huge jump in difficulty between veteran content and normal/overland content. And majority of casual players do not see a difference. No one enjoys being in a veteran dungeon for an hour because people lack basic knowledge about their builds or how to deal efficient damage. I don’t even care about dungeon mechanics at this point because that can be explained in real time.

Not only will this decrease the saturation and queue times for DDs, but will lead to more successful runs. Maybe it will encourage more people to play support roles if they can not dish out a damage rotation.

And before I’m called an elitist who is not letting people play the game how they want. Keep in mind veteran content is literally called “Veteran” it is meant to be challenging, especially in DLCs,
and frankly, I am being generous with 30k judging that just spamming light attacks should yield about 10k in a properly geared DD.

I don't know what can be done. I try to be helpful but sometimes people don't appreciate the tips. What we need though are players who are willing and patient enough to guide people through dungeons. Last night I must've spent three hours at least as a tank trying to get through a vet dungeon with some less experienced players. Sometimes they didn't res fallen players, they went away from the group and got targeted by a mob, they stood behind me instead of behind the boss, and unfortunately I got overwhelmed and drained of resources too often because they couldn't burn the mobs down quickly. I found myself having to try to deal as much damage as possible because we were lacking it so badly. But I stuck through as long as I could and lost sleep. That experience will hopefully prepare them for the next time they attempt a vet dungeon.

By the way, ZOS: Abusing one-shot mechanics is not a good way to make your game challenging. It's aggravating and feels like trolling. If I can't even bar swap because every three seconds there's a one-shot mechanic, that's forcing me to see how long I can hold one button on my controller - that's not stimulating gameplay.

kargen27 · January 2022

"ZOS needs to implement a sort of “training grounds” or “MINIMUM 30k DPS parse on a training dummy” or some other DPS check before someone can queue into veteran content as a damage dealer role."

Why 30k? Why not 60k?

20k is more than plenty to get through most the vet dungeons if the players know the mechanics. 30k isn't enough to get through most vet dungeons if you ignore mechanics.

So why 30k?

Tannus15 · January 2022

the guy who posts a thread boasting about how he queues as a fake tank and doesn't slot a taunt posts new thread complaining about people with low dps and suggests putting something in to ensure people are able to do the role they have queued for...

I just can't even.

Amottica · January 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think a training system like we have in FF14 would be good. However, a dps requirement of 30k is not needed in most dungeons and players already have the ability to set such a requirement by forming one's own group which is very easy to do.

A training system would of course be great and certainly, forming your own group is always the solution to groupfinder woes.

However, I do think it is easy to get caught up in the distinction between what is technically required, and what is reasonable for a smooth run by 4 strangers without group coms. As an example, we were one of the first clears of vMOL HM back in the day. We had to do lunar phase, and I believe my DPS for the fight was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25k, which was middle of the pack for our group. While you could technically do that now with group DPS of say 200k, doesn't mean anyone would want to, and if they did, you are looking at months of progression. So while its technically possible at 25k, its not unreasonable to say that the baseline for that content should be much higher.

I doubt we ever see any type of hard DPS reqs in groupfinder, but they could certainly add suggestions for each dungeon in the GF window. 30k is overkill for vFG1, but if your group DPS is really only 60k (30k x 2), you are going to struggle very hard to clear a lot of Vet DLCs. If your DPS is 30k or less on live with how high damage currently is, I think its a fallacy to believe that the same person is going to ace every mechanic thrown their way.

If someone wants to ensure a smooth run they really need to form their own group. Even though ESO seems to have a significantly greater variation in capability from the lower DPS range to the top, going for a random GF group in any MMORPG has it's pitfalls.

A DPS check does not guarantee anything but a training session like what FF14 has does help push players to be aware of mechanics while doing their role. As someone who has cleared a vet trial soon after it released I expect you can see the benefit of a pre-formed group vs a random group of strangers.

SilverBride · January 2022

WoW tried to do that with their Mists of Pandaria expansion by requiring damaging, tanking, or healing several rounds of mobs on timers to be able queue for heroic (comparable to veteran) dungeons. They eventually had to remove the requirement.

The thing about it though was it really didn't prove anything. I used to fail the damage test frequently because I get nervous in timed situations, so I had my friend come over and do them for me. I then queued as much as I wanted and never once had a complaint about my performance. I also ran a damage meter so I knew I was doing well.

Now if they were to introduce an informative dungeon simulator that had you block and interrupt and move out of red etc. that couldn't be failed I think that would be reasonable and could be helpful especially for new players.

jedtb16_ESO · January 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

fishing is rewarding, dummy parses are not.

The parse might not be rewarding, but the leaderboard or trifecta it helps you get very much is. Never met a person that did either as a DPS that can say with a straight face that they have never used a target dummy. People forget how much damage went up the first patch after they introduced dummies. It wasn't because we got buffs from the patch, it was because target dummies are an excellent tool to increase damage, both from a testing and a proficiency standpoint.

If you have never used a dummy, i am very confident that your damage is mediocre at best (that is the proverbial you, not you specifically )

i have target dummies never used them. i don't care about trifectas or leaderboards. this just a game, for fun. i'd rather get a perfect roe than a spot on a leaderboard.

Flangdoodle · January 2022

MoreTune wrote: »

CP does not equate proficiency in this game.

ZOS needs to implement a sort of “training grounds” or “MINIMUM 30k DPS parse on a training dummy” or some other DPS check before someone can queue into veteran content as a damage dealer role. This can even be account wide for all I care. It shows that at least on one toon, someone displays the proficiency to deal enough damage/basic rotation knowledge to complete a veteran dungeon.

There is such a huge jump in difficulty between veteran content and normal/overland content. And majority of casual players do not see a difference. No one enjoys being in a veteran dungeon for an hour because people lack basic knowledge about their builds or how to deal efficient damage. I don’t even care about dungeon mechanics at this point because that can be explained in real time.

[...]

No offense, but I think this is a you issue? If you care about the skill level of the other players you're doing dungeons with, get a crew, join a guild, or make some content. Most importantly have patience and *teach* some people to get to the level of your satisfaction rather than ask the developers to exclude people from content because they don't meet your standards.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think a training system like we have in FF14 would be good. However, a dps requirement of 30k is not needed in most dungeons and players already have the ability to set such a requirement by forming one's own group which is very easy to do.

A training system would of course be great and certainly, forming your own group is always the solution to groupfinder woes.

However, I do think it is easy to get caught up in the distinction between what is technically required, and what is reasonable for a smooth run by 4 strangers without group coms. As an example, we were one of the first clears of vMOL HM back in the day. We had to do lunar phase, and I believe my DPS for the fight was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25k, which was middle of the pack for our group. While you could technically do that now with group DPS of say 200k, doesn't mean anyone would want to, and if they did, you are looking at months of progression. So while its technically possible at 25k, its not unreasonable to say that the baseline for that content should be much higher.

I doubt we ever see any type of hard DPS reqs in groupfinder, but they could certainly add suggestions for each dungeon in the GF window. 30k is overkill for vFG1, but if your group DPS is really only 60k (30k x 2), you are going to struggle very hard to clear a lot of Vet DLCs. If your DPS is 30k or less on live with how high damage currently is, I think its a fallacy to believe that the same person is going to ace every mechanic thrown their way.

If someone wants to ensure a smooth run they really need to form their own group. Even though ESO seems to have a significantly greater variation in capability from the lower DPS range to the top, going for a random GF group in any MMORPG has it's pitfalls.

A DPS check does not guarantee anything but a training session like what FF14 has does help push players to be aware of mechanics while doing their role. As someone who has cleared a vet trial soon after it released I expect you can see the benefit of a pre-formed group vs a random group of strangers.

Oh absolutely. The best solution is of course to form your own group. That said, ZOS has an interest in ensuring a reasonably high completion rate in group finder for the overall health of the game and a PR standpoint (probably why most hard content has been nerfed over the years).

I dont think a DPS check is necessary nor that it will ever happen. I would not be opposed to some basic tutorials, which could certainly include killing a dummy or two.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2022

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

fishing is rewarding, dummy parses are not.

The parse might not be rewarding, but the leaderboard or trifecta it helps you get very much is. Never met a person that did either as a DPS that can say with a straight face that they have never used a target dummy. People forget how much damage went up the first patch after they introduced dummies. It wasn't because we got buffs from the patch, it was because target dummies are an excellent tool to increase damage, both from a testing and a proficiency standpoint.

If you have never used a dummy, i am very confident that your damage is mediocre at best (that is the proverbial you, not you specifically )

i have target dummies never used them. i don't care about trifectas or leaderboards. this just a game, for fun. i'd rather get a perfect roe than a spot on a leaderboard.

To each their own. Not here to criticize anyone's playstyle. Simply pointing out that Target Dummies are an EXTREMELY useful tool to improve you DPS if that is in fact your goal.

For some reason, they seem to get a lot of hate from certain players (mostly from terrible DPS as far as I can tell). There is a fallacy often put forth on the forums that people that practice a lot on the dummy are by definition bad at mechanics, when in reality the opposite is most often true. In fact, I think dummies really help with mechanics. It is way easier to maintain DPS while doing mechanics when your DPS rotation is second nature. That is what Dummies do for you. They ingrain your rotation so when the poop hits the fan, you can easily do what needs to be done.

Also, most games are for fun. Doesnt mean we shouldn't keep score.

Odovacar · January 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

the guy who posts a thread boasting about how he queues as a fake tank and doesn't slot a taunt posts new thread complaining about people with low dps and suggests putting something in to ensure people are able to do the role they have queued for...

I just can't even.

Thought the same thing, lol.

kargen27 · January 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It wont happen, but I would support it if it did.

Here is the funny thing. You wouldnt even have to put a number on it. Make a requirement that says kill a trial dummy (100-0) by yourself 5 times in order to queue as a DPS in vet content. That alone would solve 95% of the problem. The vast majority of terrible DPS have never done this even once, what most people need is a wakeup call that their damage is in fact terrible.

the only problem with that is technically people could still do that even with pitiful dps, and easy to bypass the requirement of 5 kills by just stacking 5x dummies and aoe spam lol

i definitely have found creative ways to get past stuff like some achievements (100 mil dmg on dummies in your house achievement on a tank? just stack more dummies and spam some aoe, need to get a monster trophy? equip leeching plate and something else that procs on taking or dealing dmg and you can effectively afk in a mob of the enemies you need to kill (i did this for 12 hours camping a series of tiger spawns in the rift to get the cats claw tiger trophy that refused to drop for me lol))

Obviously, you could just light attack it death, and people will find away around almost any system when possible. My point is that it might be the wake up call that a lot of people need. My belief is that a lot of people that are bad DPS, just don't realize how bad they actually are. At around the 10 minute mark on the first or second pull, I think a lot of people might actually get online and see what's going on with their build/rotation. And hopefully, they might keep it it for a bit and actually improve.

If you are never forced to objectively evaluate your damage, it is unlikely that you will ever do anything about it. While we cant expect everyone in Vet group finder to be 100k DPS, it would be a lot happier place if we knew that everyone had a least made some effort to improve whatever DPS they have.

i personally use, and suggest people use, world bosses to learn combat

WBs actually hit back (not insanely boring like a dummy parse)
WBs give you rewards when you finish (again you get absolutely nothing from a dummy parse for all the time spent killing it)

i would rather test a build by soloing a dungeon on normal or vet (one of the easier ones at least to start) than dummy parse

i understand the logic behind your suggestion, but dummy parses are the most boring thing i can think of in the game (yes even worse than fishing)

fishing is rewarding, dummy parses are not.

The parse might not be rewarding, but the leaderboard or trifecta it helps you get very much is. Never met a person that did either as a DPS that can say with a straight face that they have never used a target dummy. People forget how much damage went up the first patch after they introduced dummies. It wasn't because we got buffs from the patch, it was because target dummies are an excellent tool to increase damage, both from a testing and a proficiency standpoint.

If you have never used a dummy, i am very confident that your damage is mediocre at best (that is the proverbial you, not you specifically )

i have target dummies never used them. i don't care about trifectas or leaderboards. this just a game, for fun. i'd rather get a perfect roe than a spot on a leaderboard.

To each their own. Not here to criticize anyone's playstyle. Simply pointing out that Target Dummies are an EXTREMELY useful tool to improve you DPS if that is in fact your goal.

For some reason, they seem to get a lot of hate from certain players (mostly from terrible DPS as far as I can tell). There is a fallacy often put forth on the forums that people that practice a lot on the dummy are by definition bad at mechanics, when in reality the opposite is most often true. In fact, I think dummies really help with mechanics. It is way easier to maintain DPS while doing mechanics when your DPS rotation is second nature. That is what Dummies do for you. They ingrain your rotation so when the poop hits the fan, you can easily do what needs to be done.

Also, most games are for fun. Doesnt mean we shouldn't keep score.

Or the dummies could be seen as a way to cheese a build so you can brag about high numbers that will never translate to a real fight. Your perfect rotation with gear and skills specifically picked to ramp up on a target that doesn't hit back really doesn't do much to prepare you for a fight. If you get hit with AoE mid rotation your muscle memory is going to be more a hindrance than a help.
Not saying dummies are worthless. They work well for trying different rotations and for getting used to a new rotation. Much better though is get a friend that can put ele drain on a boss for you and then let you test your DPS on the boss. When the poop hits the fan your rotation isn't what saves you or keeps your numbers up.
Where the rotation is a benefit is on those bosses where the group stacks on the backside of the boss as the tank holds it in place.