Team Deathmatch should never have been part of the Battleground system

SkaraMinoc

Arenas = Team Deathmatch
Battlegrounds = Objective Games (CTF, King of the Hill, etc)



Here's a video showcasing a good implementation of a tournament yard.



Gurubashi Arena in WoW Classic



What do you think about an official Team Deathmatch arena system that allows spectators?

Amottica

There is nothing wrong with DM being part of BGs. The objective is simply to kill others in a DM match. However, the random
BG queue should not be weighted to DMs by the DM-only queue.

thesarahandcompany

Skara. Lol.

SkaraMinoc

Amottica wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with DM being part of BGs.

Isn't the 3-team format inappropriate? It's always a race to kill the weakest team. Especially when a team is missing players.

SkaraMinoc

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Skara. Lol.

What lol... I'm gonna call it like I see it.

Amottica

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with DM being part of BGs.

Isn't the 3-team format inappropriate? It's always a race to kill the weakest team. Especially when a team is missing players.

That is not the premise the OP has put forth. I try to not derail a thread by speaking to something else.

SkaraMinoc

Amottica wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with DM being part of BGs.

Isn't the 3-team format inappropriate? It's always a race to kill the weakest team. Especially when a team is missing players.

That is not the premise the OP has put forth. I try to not derail a thread by speaking to something else.

It's okay, you're not derailing. This thread is for discussing how the Battleground system is inappropriate for Team Deathmatch for many reasons. One of them is the 3-team format. Hence the square peg in a round hole.

jaws343

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with DM being part of BGs.

Isn't the 3-team format inappropriate? It's always a race to kill the weakest team. Especially when a team is missing players.

That is not the premise the OP has put forth. I try to not derail a thread by speaking to something else.

It's okay, you're not derailing. This thread is for discussing how the Battleground system is inappropriate for Team Deathmatch for many reasons. One of them is the 3-team format. Hence the square peg in a round hole.

That's far more true for objective modes. Imagine a mode that literally encourages avoiding the other two teams as they fight over an objective. That's bgs for objective modes. Run away from the fight because actually fighting for the flag or the relic would hurt your chances of winning. What a great system /s.

SkaraMinoc

jaws343 wrote: »

That's far more true for objective modes. Imagine a mode that literally encourages avoiding the other two teams as they fight over an objective. That's bgs for objective modes. Run away from the fight because actually fighting for the flag or the relic would hurt your chances of winning. What a great system /s.

I've posted about this before. This is how it should work.

3 teams @ 8 players each

• Chaosball

2 teams @ 12 players each (new maps needed)

• Capture the Relic
• Domination

Remove from Battlegrounds

• Crazy King (this actively encourages players to avoid combat which has no place in battlegrounds)
• Team Deathmatch (this should be Arenas)

[Edit: Removed group duels as a replacement for Team Deathmatch]

Foto1

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

That's far more true for objective modes. Imagine a mode that literally encourages avoiding the other two teams as they fight over an objective. That's bgs for objective modes. Run away from the fight because actually fighting for the flag or the relic would hurt your chances of winning. What a great system /s.

I've posted about this before. This is how it should work.

3 teams @ 8 players each

• Chaosball

2 teams @ 12 players each (new maps needed)

• Capture the Relic
• Domination

Remove from Battlegrounds

• Crazy King (this actively encourages players to avoid combat which has no place in battlegrounds)
• Team Deathmatch (this should be Arenas / Group Duels)

I hope this will never happen in eso

SkaraMinoc

Foto1 wrote: »

<snip> I hope this will never happen in eso

That's fine, you're entitled to that opinion.

SkaraMinoc

The decision to revert back to the old queue system takes us in the opposite direction of progress and back into a negative feedback loop. What do you think will happen? A non-trivial amount of players will ignore objectives and deathmatch anyways. Some players are talking about spawn camping as a form of protest. Others see no future for competitive ESO PvP.

It's clear the goal for battlegrounds is a casual, small-scale PvP experience. Unfortunately, both Cyrodiil and IC are not competitive. If you take a competitive deathmatch player and throw them into Cyrodiil or IC, it's going to be a bloodbath until they get overwhelmed by 10+ players and/or lag.

What options do we have remaining?



Group duels aren't a replacement for competitive Team Deathmatch. Imagine having to restart the duel after every wipe. Imagine having no scoreboard or ranked ladder. Sounds awful. If they give us group duels, I'll take them. I'll even appreciate some form of improvement for ESO PvP. But it's not ideal.

mmtaniac

Deathmatch can work best with 2 teams only and permadeath after death.

CameraBeardThePirate

If by arena, you mean wide open maps, I strongly disagree.

There's a reason no one fights in the middle of Istirus Outpost. In a game like ESO with no ability cooldowns, fights are very imbalanced if there's nowhere to kite or no cover to LoS around. Fights would devolve even further into a stalemate-y standoff until one team has negate up.

I really don't understand why ZoS can't just remove deathmatch from the "random queue", that way people who want to queue for deathmatch can queue for deathmatch and people who don't can queue for objectives. Players just want to be able to play what they want to play, it shouldn't be this hard to give them that choice.

Necrotech_Master

personally if i were to rank my preference for the current modes:

1. tie between crazy king and chaosball
2. relics
3. domination
4. deathmatch

i agree relic would probably be a little better with 2 teams instead of 3 (instead of 1 team just waiting for 2 other teams to stalemate to steal relics)

deathmatch should have an option for team and free for all (for free for all, the "winning rewards" could go for positions 1-4, "seconds place" would be 5-8)

chaosball would probably be better in an "open" arena so there is no LOS or buggy geometry gimmicks to stay alive longer (may need a new map(s) for chaosball, can be themed on the current ones, but just a flat circular arena, think of the side boss locations in red petal bastion but a bit larger)

until they improve the queue issues though, im not participating in BGs

Amottica

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

That's far more true for objective modes. Imagine a mode that literally encourages avoiding the other two teams as they fight over an objective. That's bgs for objective modes. Run away from the fight because actually fighting for the flag or the relic would hurt your chances of winning. What a great system /s.

I've posted about this before. This is how it should work.

3 teams @ 8 players each

• Chaosball

2 teams @ 12 players each (new maps needed)

• Capture the Relic
• Domination

Remove from Battlegrounds

• Crazy King (this actively encourages players to avoid combat which has no place in battlegrounds)
• Team Deathmatch (this should be Arenas / Group Duels)

Again, to the main point, DM is appropriate for BGs./

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

The decision to revert back to the old queue system takes us in the opposite direction of progress and back into a negative feedback loop. What do you think will happen? A non-trivial amount of players will ignore objectives and deathmatch anyways. Some players are talking about spawn camping as a form of protest. Others see no future for competitive ESO PvP.

It's clear the goal for battlegrounds is a casual, small-scale PvP experience. Unfortunately, both Cyrodiil and IC are not competitive. If you take a competitive deathmatch player and throw them into Cyrodiil or IC, it's going to be a bloodbath until they get overwhelmed by 10+ players and/or lag.

What options do we have remaining?


Group duels aren't a replacement for competitive Team Deathmatch. Imagine having to restart the duel after every wipe. Imagine having no scoreboard or ranked ladder. Sounds awful. If they give us group duels, I'll take them. I'll even appreciate some form of improvement for ESO PvP. But it's not ideal.

I agree that a separate DM queue that relies on the random queue to fill it's matches and hence skewing the results of the random queue to the DM is a bad idea. Might as well have only a DM queue. Oh, Zenimax already tried that.

But there is no need for Zenimax to create a new system and entirely new maps for a DM. They merely need to either have a totally random queue or completely sever the ties between the DM queue and random queue so they are totally separate with a chance of a DM queue still being in the random since it is a bonified BG. If one queue has a long wait, so be it as the players made their choice.

I do not think Zenimax does this due to a low population for BGs. This last bit is speculation ofc.

McTaterskins

Amottica wrote: »

completely sever the ties between the DM queue and random queue so they are totally separate with a chance of a DM queue still being in the random since it is a bonified BG. If one queue has a long wait, so be it as the players made their choice.

This.

Whole issue resolved by this. Could have been done a long long time ago.

MentalxHammer

If ZOS added ranked arenas to this game it would be the best move possible. PvP players have been starving for content, hundreds of thousands of players have just quit New World, balance is the best it’s ever been. It would really be a simple implementation and would offer so much to the game.

OBJnoob

Adding arenas would be awesome. They could be ranked, 2v2 up to 8v8, any and all of it would be awesome. Group duels. Any of it. All of it.

Leave the bgs AvAvA though it’s a unique part of this game. I also played WoW and Everquest— PC and console— they were very cool for very different reasons. But how different? A different flavor in an almost identical genre. Can’t steal too many ideas, even if they’re good, cuz you lose your identity.

AvAvA doesn’t ruin anything it’s just different. There are strategies for how to do it properly. It’s just too bad there aren’t other ways to get ranked and extra sweaty competitive.

Like people talk bad about people who PvDoor, yea okay, but we’re not gonna get rid of the castles and siege are we? I mean we mutter under our breath about them like, every time, but we don’t actually want the game to be something it’s not do we? I dunno if that’s a good metaphor.

divnyi

3v3 and 12v12 pvp modes would be awesome.