Should the destruction staves get split up into 3 separate skill lines?

MindOfTheSwarm

I say this because, people have asked for more Magicka weapon options. Why not simply split up the three Destro lines? Have an Inferno staff line, a Lightning staff line and a Frost staff line. Give them exclusive skills separate from each other and now you have just given Magicka users more options.

BloodyStigmata

That wouldn't really do anything other than inflate the game with redundant skill trees. How would you even differentiate their skills in any meaningful way beyond what the destruction staff skill already does? And how would go about balancing it? What would each skill tree focus on, and how would you reconcile that with existing builds and arena weapons?

Vaoh

ZOS already did a great job merging the three Destruction staff types imo. The game does a check on your weapon type and then converts the ability based on what it finds:
Flame Staff - Flame variants
Shock Staff - Shock variants
Frost Staff - Frost variants
Other Weapons - Magic variants, but cannot be casted due to a weapon line requirement.

It would be nice for a Magic Destruction Staff to be added to the mix.

The Magic variant ability icons (purple/pink color) and tooltips already exist. ZOS only needs to update the actives, passives, and Ultimate with unique effects and animations, and add the new weapon type to set collections.

Facefister

Maybe add Alteration Skill line tailored for tanks and healers.

Mushroomancer

What would be the point in that?
Unless you were actually able to differentiate them radically, you'd just have the same skill line repeated three times, with slightly different flavour.
Plus, I don't think there's really a need for it, because, even if you were to differentiate them properly, chances are skills would be too scattered between each tree to be able to be comfortably used by anyone. Say I want to be a frost dps, since that's what you seem to advocate in many of your posts, sure you get your own skill line, but now the dps ranged spammable is in the Flame Staff skill line, because ZOS thought that it would be best if Frost Staff remained a tank/support skill line. What I'm saying is, basically, either you get three barely different skill lines, or three very different ones, that ZOS will most likely compartmentalize by making them fit into specific roles.
What I would like to see, would be staves or other magicka weapons tied to the other "classic" TES magic schools, so maybe Alteration, Illusion, or even Mysticism based weapons. Don't really know what skills each would have, but I think it would be cool to have them and it might be a nice addition to the lackluster offerings we currently have for magicka-based weapons.

SeaGtGruff

On one level, I think separating the different kinds of destruction staves-- as well as the various one-handed and two-handed weapons-- into their own skill lines would make a lot of sense.

On the other hand, it would probably require a lot of redesign on the part of the devs, and would require a lot of rebuilding of characters and relearning of skills on the part of the players. Aside from the fact that dev time is better spent on other things, can you imagine the outcry from the players if they had to deal with that much fundamental change?

VaranisArano

Part of the reason to ask for more weapon skills lines is also to give players more options, not the same ones rebranded.

So I'd like see One Hand & Spell to better represent the Spellsword archetype from earlier TES games and to give people who don't want to use staves a legitimate alternative. I'd like to see Magic Tanks get more specialized skills like Alteration.

Cheyenne

I want a different magicka weapon just so I can stop wearing a long stick on my back.

Ksariyu

They should have just made the staff skill lines into world skills and either let staves be physical weapons or used them similarly to how they were in every other ES game.

Splitting the skill lines wouldn't do much though. The differences between the skills' behavior between elements is too small to make them worth their own skill lines, which is fine considering destruction magic has always worked like that in the past.

phaneub17_ESO

Destruction skill line already has Flag checks on which element you're wielding, if they wanted each skill could have completely different mechanics. They kept them relatively the same so there isn't as much confusion about what each one does when switching around or with double staff builds.

Now if they were to add the other 3 schools of magic as their own skill trees I could see that happening. I'd love a conjuration staff skill line, but its doubtful to happen since 4 classes already have that built into their base line one way or another.

MindOfTheSwarm

Ok, then why not allow the skills to count as separate in that you can have two wall of elements down as long as they are different elements? Allowing for an ‘elemental OST’ type of toon.

kaushad

Couldn't you use one of the elemental class skills?

Vulkunne

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I say this because, people have asked for more Magicka weapon options. Why not simply split up the three Destro lines? Have an Inferno staff line, a Lightning staff line and a Frost staff line. Give them exclusive skills separate from each other and now you have just given Magicka users more options.

This was an idea that was tossed around frequently back in the early days.

Honestly, I'm not saying the concept is not feasible however I think its too late to be going in this direction.

MindOfTheSwarm

Funnily enough the Destro spammable allows all three buffs active. It also works in its current iteration but requires you cast the Destro spammable every four seconds or at least have 2 different elemental dots going off at once while your light attacks are the third element. I suppose when you think about it my idea isn’t much different from its current form outside of the extra time and the fact it is Spell Damage meaning it would benefit Magic skills and healing too.

DtOG

an actual execute would be nice. Magdk, magden and magcro would actually be fun in pvp.

Vevvev

DtOG wrote: »

an actual execute would be nice. Magdk, magden and magcro would actually be fun in pvp.

MagDK doesn't need an execute to be fun in PvP and was built around not having one. If you wanna get super technical technically they already do, but who in the world is going to be using flame Impulse for that very reason? More for clearing out groups of PvE enemies quickly tbh.

BXR_Lonestar

I don't think each element needs its own skill tree, but it would be nice to see ZoS do a bit better job of making each element stand out better. Currently, Flame Staff is meta, just because it does so much more single-target damage, which it should, but would be nice to see Lightning Staff get a passive like "arcing" or something along those lines so all sources of lightning damage chains extra damage among all enemies who are within x meters of eachother, which would dramatically increase your damage output vs. large groups with a lightning staff. IMO, there should be some incentive as a DPS for you to run one of each so that your prepped for any encounter, but in pretty much all organized content, Inferno Staff is just clearly better. People who use lightning staff (like me) pretty much just use it because the channeled heavy attack feels better than the inferno staff HA mechanic.

olsborg

I wouldnt mind this idea at all, magic users are pretty limited in what weapons they can use effectively imo.

Ksariyu

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I don't think each element needs its own skill tree, but it would be nice to see ZoS do a bit better job of making each element stand out better. Currently, Flame Staff is meta, just because it does so much more single-target damage, which it should, but would be nice to see Lightning Staff get a passive like "arcing" or something along those lines so all sources of lightning damage chains extra damage among all enemies who are within x meters of eachother, which would dramatically increase your damage output vs. large groups with a lightning staff. IMO, there should be some incentive as a DPS for you to run one of each so that your prepped for any encounter, but in pretty much all organized content, Inferno Staff is just clearly better. People who use lightning staff (like me) pretty much just use it because the channeled heavy attack feels better than the inferno staff HA mechanic.

I feel like it was a poor decision to make AoE vs Single-Target the difference between lightning and fire (And two-handed vs dual-wield for that matter). The way most encounters are designed, you're always going to get more value out of doing big single-target damage, and having AoE damage is more of a requirement than a bonus in ever other case, which is fine because fire is still great in that department with how skills are designed.

I think it may be better to make lightning more crit-focused, and maybe alter their skills to focus more on faster, smaller ticks of damage that benefit greater from high crit percentage. I would also like to see the devs allow lightning to utilize attack speed buffs, which would be fitting to the theme of lightning alongside balancing out having lower overall damage per hit.

Nanfoodle

There is so many Magica skill lines people are asking for. Shout, Wands, Relics to name a few. Time to do something really new not rehash.

MindOfTheSwarm

I still think there is room to distinguish the elemental types within the line outside of aesthetic and a few status effects. I mean look at Elemental Blockade as a perfect example.
This particular morph is never used as Unstable is just so much better. Even a Frost tank will choose Unstable as they get a second shield. The only builds that might use blockade are healers or tanks looking for high up time in brittle or concussed. But this is kind of niche now that many class skills can apply Minor Vulnerability.

You could for example really pin down a definite feel for the elements, similar how class identity works but for elements. Yes, Fire is single target, Lightning AoE and Frost for support or tanking. But ask yourself is this enough of an identity? Why not look into harder and really hit home a uniqueness between them.

As an example:

Clench:

Fire: Ditch the stun and knock back. Focus on its damage component and increase its DoT damage or have it always apply Burning.

Lightning: Instead give the knock back to Lightning staff as well as it hitting in an area. Although the knock back only affects the primary target.

Frost Clench: Ditch taunt and make this morph the DPS spammable. Also, let it freeze chilled targets, stunning them for 3 seconds. Wouldn’t be op due its its range restriction.

Reach:

Fire: Keep the range and function as is. Reduce the cost.

Lightning: Increase the range to a longer distance. Give it the longest range out of all Reach morphs. Damage increased the further away you are similar to Blackrose Bow.

Frost: Make this the tank morph. Give it Taunt and have its damage scale with Max Health. Taunt is more valuable on ranged abilities.

Now you have given each morph a unique feel and character different from the others. Frost is more close range whereas Lightning has more range with Fire being the middle ground.

As for Wall:

Unstable:

Fire: Explosion deals increased damage.

Lightning: Enemies hit by explosion are charged, after 3 seconds they release the energy in an AoE dealing x Lightning Damage to nearby enemies.

Frost: Tank morph. Damage scales with Max Health. Wall itself does not explode. Instead the shields on you and allies explode dealing x Frost Damage based on your Max Health.

Blockade: (This morph really needs looking at).

Fire: Burning enemies in the area spread the Burning status to nearby enemies.

Lightning: Enemies hit in the area arc a small amount of Lightning Damage to one nearby enemy.

Frost: Increased duration. Enemies in the area take 2% more damage from the wall every second they remain in its area.

This way each wall has unique effects and Blockade has appealing bonuses that separate it from Unstable. Fire focuses on raw damage, Lightning on crowd control and Frost has a tank morph and a DPS morph. Allowing for a variety of build options.

I mean these are just ideas at the end of the day. But without question Blockade needs looking at.

Mayrael

Of course it's a great idea.

Instead of just a random division, you could actually tailor staff skils to their type. E.g. flame staff offering single target nuke instead of elemental blockade, shock staff could stay with blockade as it is and ice staff could create barrier like NPCs have - ice wall or something like that.

It's just a first thought, but the ideas for such a distinction of skils are not only in their stats and visual appeal, but at the very base. Why not give ice staff option to freeze opponent (hard CC), which applies for example major vulnerability for 3s? Why not give shock staff conical AoE that knocks back enemies? Etc. Etc. lets make destro staves fun!

deleted221205-002626

Cheyenne wrote: »

I want a different magicka weapon just so I can stop wearing a long stick on my back.

I agree with this.. even dual wield wands or something other than the big stick on the back

Lysette

Ksariyu wrote: »

They should have just made the staff skill lines into world skills and either let staves be physical weapons or used them similarly to how they were in every other ES game.

There is a way to give staves some physical damage as well - enchanting it with absorb stamina does this - the damage part from the enchantment becomes physical damage in this case.

TelvanniWizard

At this point, I just want more skill lines, wichever they are.

Lysette

sinnereso wrote: »

Cheyenne wrote: »

I want a different magicka weapon just so I can stop wearing a long stick on my back.

I agree with this.. even dual wield wands or something other than the big stick on the back

why not having a weaponless skill line then - for enhanced sorcery - in other TES games the only weapon my mages had were daggers - to cut throats - sometimes it is better to not be too noisy and kill in a stealthy way. Well, not truely the only weapons, I used summoned weapons as well, for when I actually had to fight instead to mess with the minds of my opponents and let them kill each other - just to calm down the last one standing when he is approaching and as soon as he turns his back to me, I go in stealth and cut his throat - done - so the only real weapon I need is a dagger.

ajkb78

There isn't really a need for it, it would just be a skill point sink. My only criticism is that the staff types are a bit too siloed - inferno for all DPS classes, ice for all tanks and most healers, very little use of lightning since CP 2.0.

I think it's an easily fixable problem, too. Change the passive that gives inferno staves an 8% buff to single target, lightning staves a buff to aoe and ice staves tanky passives so that each type of staff provides an 8% buff (or whatever value is required to keep overall damage levels where they should be) to its own damage type plus magic damage. So inferno staves would buff flame and magic damage, lightning staves would buff shock and magic damage, ice staves would buff ice and magic damage. The tanky ice staff passives would get moved to a red or blue CP slottable and could be used with any type of staff.
That way tanks would have more freedom in what type of staff they use and different classes / builds would have different optimum staff types - dragonknights would typically want inferno staves, sorcerers would want lightning staves, wardens would usually want frost staves and the other 3 classes would have more of a free choice determined in part by what sets they use.

drsalvation

To all asking what's the point, I think it would be better for role-playing.
Ice staffs are forced to be tank/defensive, fire are forced to be damage based, and lightning are more of AoE.

I think splitting them would allow for ice staffs to be used for damage and fire for defensive skills as well.
Either that or rework the staff skills and have them specifically be about defense/offense without making them forced to an element.

Either way, we're still getting new skills anyway (in form of gear) so why not?

AcadianPaladin

I think keeping fire, ice and shock staves in one destro skill line is fine but drop any tanking support and focus purely on, you know, like the name says: destruction. What I'd like to see is a new staff that is (like resto is focused on healers) totally focused on tanking. So the destro skill line would focus purely on destro with the 3 elemental staves, resto on healers and the new skill line (defender maybe) would introduce a new staff focused purely on supporting tanks. I think that could help all tanks bur really give a boost to mag tanks.

ajkb78

drsalvation wrote: »

To all asking what's the point, I think it would be better for role-playing.
Ice staffs are forced to be tank/defensive, fire are forced to be damage based, and lightning are more of AoE.

I think splitting them would allow for ice staffs to be used for damage and fire for defensive skills as well.
Either that or rework the staff skills and have them specifically be about defense/offense without making them forced to an element.

Either way, we're still getting new skills anyway (in form of gear) so why not?

See my suggestion above, it gives a much simpler way of allowing for any staff to be used for damage without requiring 3x the skill lines or a ton of rebalancing work.

Arthur_Spoonfondle

Seems quite unnecessary to me.

Considering the way some other MMOs have, notably WoW, we are lucky we still have a proper talent system, which has not been watered down to be little better than useless.