Ways to discourage one faction stack in IC?

divnyi

At the moment, there are times when some 10+ player group would steamroll whole IC almost without resistance - because players who lose to those groups several times just leave IC, there is no profit in being on the losers side (even more, city control favors winner alliance). After that, IC becomes PvE zone.

Any ideas on how to improve that aspect?

VaranisArano

Remove the district flag/respawn mechanic so players can respawn and jump right back into the fight?

That being said, it's a little ironic that what you describe sounds a little like how DAoC's Darkness Falls works with control gradually shifting into the hands of the incoming alliance until its basically PVE, until the frontier keeps change hands and a new alliance sweeps in. I say ironic because Imperial City lost that aspect of its inspiration from Darkness Falls pretty early.

gameswithaspoon

Remove the loss of telvar stones at the death of a player. The feeling of grouping up and taking away from solo players or smaller groups is what promotes the dogpile effect.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

After that, IC becomes PvE zone. Any ideas on how to improve that aspect?

Add a PvE-only instance of IC.

Tommy_The_Gun

You will not discourage faction stack in IC, even if you would remove tel-var loss on death. The problem is... well... the fact that it is a mixed PvP & PvE zone in a tight confined area. Same would be happening in Cyro if it was reduced to the size of Bruma. Imagine trying to do quests or dolmen or any PvE stuff. It would be impossible, unless you would have 3 ball groups for protection.

^ That is why people stack. For protection. Same reason why animals form herds - for protection. Less likely for some predators to attack, and even if - it is easier to defend.

That is the reason why I think IC is a wasted content. For the most part it is like 90% PvE stuff, but the added PvP just ruins it. That is the reason why IC is pretty much empty 24/7. Because it is not enjoyable from PvE perspective and also not enjoyable from PvP perspective.

The only way to somehow make IC more popular is to either remove PvE or PvP (so only one would be left & tel-var will be for killing players only, not mobs) or just to separate it into 2 instances - one PvE only, & the other PvP only.

I mean think of it. Imagine we have one IC campaign, just like we have on live server, and the second that has PvP disabled. I 100% guarantee you that the one without PvP would be impossible to get to as you would have 3K people in the queue, while PvP one will be dead empty. Even if the PvE one would not give tel-vars - it would be populated through the roof.

divnyi

@Tommy_The_Gun @xylena_lazarow well the aim is to increase amount of PvP in IC, not to reduce it. It is PvP zone, one of the 3 PvP modes that is only available in the game, unlike PvE with tonns of content.

For me, IC gives Lineage2 nostalgic vibes with wars over best PvE zones.
But L2 didn't have non-PvP zones, so you couldn't go safe route as you can in ESO.
Safe PvE content in ESO gives better loot too - so it's not like it's THE best zone for farming, there is no reason for PvE player to set foot in IC, unless they want some challenges.

@gameswithaspoon wouldn't it then discourage PvP, because you get nothing from it? How would multipliers be balanced also?

I can see something like:
* stash all telvars on death and on exit from the home base - always start from 0
* player kill gives 150*your_multiplier*enemy_multiplier telvars - some incentive to kill. Max number would be 2400, but that's player with 10k telvar session killing player with 10k telvar session, which will be incredibly rare. Average fights will be in like 600-1000 range.
* no telvar is lost on death

@VaranisArano yeah, district mechanic is horrible. Probably one of the most annoying things about IC, second to the need of jumping down and up to stash your telvars after you die, instead of that being automatic.

District control giving insane bonus to the dominating party is awful too. You could try to sneak the bosses and kill them as 1-2 player vs zerg, but you'll get almost nothing without city control. It's even more profitable to join the winning party and do the same - and you don't even need to fight that zerg then.

Besides, those flags with 3 warriors near them look so stupid in a city that is sprawling with daedra.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

well the aim is to increase amount of PvP in IC

Minimal or zero telvar loss on death.

Iriidius

Running around in a 10 men group in IC is a very ineffective to farm tel var/ap because you wont find more npcs and players to kill and all ap/tel var is split between group members. But it seems like those players dont care about tel var and ap gain, they also dont want good fights, they only want to overrun and kill and tyranize everybody and prevent them from having any of this too.

gameswithaspoon

divnyi wrote: »

....

@gameswithaspoon wouldn't it then discourage PvP, because you get nothing from it? How would multipliers be balanced also?

.....

From five years of debating IC with at least the nonCP PVP crowd (excluding the forum warriors), the number one reason why people don't want to go to IC in order to PVP as an alternative to Cyrodiil is the telvar loss on death. Say you've had a good one or two hours of fighting and then you loose 50% of your telvar to a lucky bomb on a door. That's a huge disincentive. I mean, if you lost half your AP every time you died in Cyrodiil, how much fighting would you do? Cyrodiil would be empty.

And people are open to an alternative to do group pvp that's not the (generally) solo content of BGs when Cyrodiil is laggy or too much in your favor. And even for PVE groups.... when IC came out you always had farming group in there in the upper districts, especially on the weekends. If you removed the telvar loss, you wouldn't be overly punishing them for trying new content, but you would still have pvp.

At the very least, ZOS might consider turning off the lost for the next IC event and see if the general levels of satisfaction with the content went up.

maxjapank

gameswithaspoon wrote: »

Remove the loss of telvar stones at the death of a player. The feeling of grouping up and taking away from solo players or smaller groups is what promotes the dogpile effect.

This.

Shardan4968

Wouldn't removing tel var loss cause massive inflation, causing hakeijo to lose its value which might further diminish IC population?

maxjapank

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Wouldn't removing tel var loss cause massive inflation, causing hakeijo to lose its value which might further diminish IC population?

No.

Tommy_The_Gun

divnyi wrote: »

the aim is to increase amount of PvP in IC, not to reduce it.

If that is the case, then we need to ask ourselves a question: What is the reason people want to PvP in IC ?

For the most part imho IC is all about farming Tel-Var stones. Not actually doing PvP content. So it is more like a doing PvE content (killing mobs) and at the same time being safe from other players (hence faction stacking in large numbers). So often, if there is 1v1 scenario, players will rather avoid eachother, as they know that they both have a lot of tel-var to lose. Players actually PvP there only if they have to. Either they are forced to defend themselves, or they are zerging & they are sure they are gonna win.

If we want to make PvP as the main activity in IC, then we need to introduce some kind of reward for doing it. Right now tel-vars are more or less a reward for PvE (killing mobs & quest rewards).

What if we had tel-var rewards for killing players ? So instead of "stealing" tel-var from other players if you defeat them, you would get certain, specified amount of tel-vars for player kills. At the same time you would not lose tel-var you are carrying (if you die to other player), so that players would not be afraid to PvP.

xylena_lazarow

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Wouldn't removing tel var loss cause massive inflation, causing hakeijo to lose its value which might further diminish IC population?

They're only so expensive because so few players are doing IC. Prices would fall if more people did IC, but that wouldn't be a bad thing, they're a BIS PvP item so being more affordable could help encourage more people to PvP. And yea, let's just remove telvar loss on death.

Elendir2am

When I tried IC last year, I was most bothered by spending time in 2 loading screens every time I died. AD practically never held a flag, and I always had to conquer one first in order to operate there. But this was quite difficult with the zerg.

Kwoung

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Wouldn't removing tel var loss cause massive inflation, causing hakeijo to lose its value which might further diminish IC population?

Hakeijo only went for 6-10K not all that long ago, the problem is the exact opposite as you think and needs corrected. As for it becoming worthless, I made my tens of millions selling Tri-Stat glyphs for 10k each back then, because unlike now, most players could actually afford to put them on all seven gear pieces.

Vaoh

At this point I’m not sure if losing Tel Var on death is a good idea anymore. I think removing or adjusting that mechanic for one patch is worth a test. The PvP meta and gameplay is drastically different from how it was back in 2016. Plus you have gankers who can kill 30-40k health players with heavy attack+caluurion Proc+Incap+undodgeable whirling blades execute... just makes farming for a lot of players feel pointless. There’s two IC campaigns and one is usually empty/has 1 bar tops per faction, while the other is permanently empty.

I like the losing Tel Var on death mechanic btw. Just wondering if there’s any way to help IC no longer be a ghost town outside of double Tel Var events.

Kwoung

Vaoh wrote: »

At this point I’m not sure if losing Tel Var on death is a good idea anymore. I think removing or adjusting that mechanic for one patch is worth a test. The PvP meta and gameplay is drastically different from how it was back in 2016. Plus you have gankers who can kill 30-40k health players with heavy attack+caluurion Proc+Incap+undodgeable whirling blades execute... just makes farming for a lot of players feel pointless. There’s two IC campaigns and one is usually empty/has 1 bar tops per faction, while the other is permanently empty.

I like the losing Tel Var on death mechanic btw. Just wondering if there’s any way to help IC no longer be a ghost town outside of double Tel Var events.

I would not be so sure the double TelVar is what drags players in. Pretty sure most are there simply for their event tickets.

VaranisArano

Kwoung wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

At this point I’m not sure if losing Tel Var on death is a good idea anymore. I think removing or adjusting that mechanic for one patch is worth a test. The PvP meta and gameplay is drastically different from how it was back in 2016. Plus you have gankers who can kill 30-40k health players with heavy attack+caluurion Proc+Incap+undodgeable whirling blades execute... just makes farming for a lot of players feel pointless. There’s two IC campaigns and one is usually empty/has 1 bar tops per faction, while the other is permanently empty.

I like the losing Tel Var on death mechanic btw. Just wondering if there’s any way to help IC no longer be a ghost town outside of double Tel Var events.

I would not be so sure the double TelVar is what drags players in. Pretty sure most are there simply for their event tickets.

Double Tel Var does draw in a fair number of PVPers. It's the worst time of the year for traditional TV farming.

Event tickets and other event rewards bring in the rest of the crowd, particularly the group that really wants to avoid PVP at all costs but queued up to get the rewards anyways.

divnyi

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Wouldn't removing tel var loss cause massive inflation, causing hakeijo to lose its value which might further diminish IC population?

It would, but consider the following:

1. Hakeijo price is over the top. When I started playing ESO, it was more than x3 cheaper.
2. Telvar can be spent for chests and sets also. Set prices are astronomically high too.

Kwoung

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

At this point I’m not sure if losing Tel Var on death is a good idea anymore. I think removing or adjusting that mechanic for one patch is worth a test. The PvP meta and gameplay is drastically different from how it was back in 2016. Plus you have gankers who can kill 30-40k health players with heavy attack+caluurion Proc+Incap+undodgeable whirling blades execute... just makes farming for a lot of players feel pointless. There’s two IC campaigns and one is usually empty/has 1 bar tops per faction, while the other is permanently empty.

I like the losing Tel Var on death mechanic btw. Just wondering if there’s any way to help IC no longer be a ghost town outside of double Tel Var events.

I would not be so sure the double TelVar is what drags players in. Pretty sure most are there simply for their event tickets.

Double Tel Var does draw in a fair number of PVPers. It's the worst time of the year for traditional TV farming.

Event tickets and other event rewards bring in the rest of the crowd, particularly the group that really wants to avoid PVP at all costs but queued up to get the rewards anyways.

Last year during MYM my friends avoided IC and I did all our TV farming in Cyrodiil doing town quests. Got quite a lot actually, no chance of losing it, and a bunch of other worthwhile rewards to sell to boot.

The worst part of IC IMHO is, even if you go in fully prepared, there is almost always going to be "that rando guy" nearby who isn't, only has 20k or less health, is probably casting purge right and left on everyone, and gets you all killed. Heck, sometimes I wonder (in Cyrodiil too) if "that guy" isn't actually playing for the other team and his partner is running plaguebreak and VD just to wipe you out easily over and over. Ran into what seemed like just that situation the other day in Cyro... a 2 way large battle and one random from the 3rd faction running around suddenly blowing everyone up with PB procs, when just moments before no one on our side had been purging or dropping those synergies at all. It didn't stop either, even with half the zone yelling at the guy to stop purging.

Anyways, bottom line is PVP is pretty broken and easily exploited, which makes losing anything other than some time and pride sting even more.

divnyi

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

At this point I’m not sure if losing Tel Var on death is a good idea anymore. I think removing or adjusting that mechanic for one patch is worth a test. The PvP meta and gameplay is drastically different from how it was back in 2016. Plus you have gankers who can kill 30-40k health players with heavy attack+caluurion Proc+Incap+undodgeable whirling blades execute... just makes farming for a lot of players feel pointless. There’s two IC campaigns and one is usually empty/has 1 bar tops per faction, while the other is permanently empty.

I like the losing Tel Var on death mechanic btw. Just wondering if there’s any way to help IC no longer be a ghost town outside of double Tel Var events.

I would not be so sure the double TelVar is what drags players in. Pretty sure most are there simply for their event tickets.

Double Tel Var does draw in a fair number of PVPers. It's the worst time of the year for traditional TV farming.

Idk how traditional is that, but last event you had double drop on telvars and double boxes from quest, meaning each quest gave astronomical x4 on each character.

I lead a group of casual players from the guild I'm in, and I'm fairly sure it was time-effective even for those, who died all the time.

divnyi

As for "no telvar loss" test, I would want to see one too, but they would need to consider two things:

1. Multiplier
2. Imperial Physique

@ZOS_GinaBruno any chances such a test would be scheduled? I would consider to give a rough estimation - it might be not hard to implement for a huge positive impact on PvP.

Shardan4968

If they would consider doing a test with no tel var loss, then also consider the fact that the initial data from it may not be precise, because everyone will jump into IC to farm the hell out of it expecting the test to only be temporary like some event. I think the test would have to be long enough for people to consider it the new normal. But zenimax would probably take it into account anyway, If they decided to finally do some significant changes that is.

I personally wonder If Tel Var loss mechanic is really the only thing that keeps people away from IC. I mean If it was really fun, certainly people wouldn't care about losing some virutal currency as long as they can jump right back into a fight and enjoy themselves. Or maybe it's not fun only because of its current empty state. Won't know for sure until zos does something.

Kwoung

Shardan4968 wrote: »

If they would consider doing a test with no tel var loss, then also consider the fact that the initial data from it may not be precise, because everyone will jump into IC to farm the hell out of it expecting the test to only be temporary like some event. I think the test would have to be long enough for people to consider it the new normal. But zenimax would probably take it into account anyway, If they decided to finally do some significant changes that is.

I personally wonder If Tel Var loss mechanic is really the only thing that keeps people away from IC. I mean If it was really fun, certainly people wouldn't care about losing some virutal currency as long as they can jump right back into a fight and enjoy themselves. Or maybe it's not fun only because of its current empty state. Won't know for sure until zos does something.

It is the main thing that keeps me away, as it just isn't a good feeling to actually lose something, especially when the guy taking it is generally built specifically for that purpose and will never give you a chance to get it back. I don't honestly believe they could make IC fun enough to warrant the loss... and I probably wouldn't play Cyro either if I lost AP every time I died. I can deal with dying, I can deal with long rides/runs back to the fight, but the second someone has their hand on my wallet... yeah no thanks.

Iriidius

I also think the main reason for going IC should be farming tel var. Imperial City Event also only doubles tel var gain, not ap gain. New Tel Var is created by farming NPCs. Farming Tel Var solo is most effective, because there are not enaugh NPCs to kill for more then one person. In a group you wont kill more NPCs but have to share your Tel Var with your group members. Killing other players is a way to farm Tel Var by stealing it from them. The more players are involved in killing one player, the less each of them gets. So you want to share your kill with as few people as necessary.
But players still run around in groups of 10 players and hunt solo players even if they could kill them alone and there are no enemy groups around although they gain almost nothing from this.

geonsocal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

^ That is why people stack. For protection. Same reason why animals form herds - for protection. Less likely for some predators to attack, and even if - it is easier to defend.

That is the reason why I think IC is a wasted content. For the most part it is like 90% PvE stuff, but the added PvP just ruins it. That is the reason why IC is pretty much empty 24/7. Because it is not enjoyable from PvE perspective and also not enjoyable from PvP perspective.

The only way to somehow make IC more popular is to either remove PvE or PvP (so only one would be left & tel-var will be for killing players only, not mobs) or just to separate it into 2 instances - one PvE only, & the other PvP only.

or, make it so that no one can group, no alliances - pve zone with pvp rulesets...it would be interesting to see what would happen...

divnyi

Iriidius wrote: »

although they gain almost nothing from this.

They kill bosses in circle run with 6-flag control. That's more than what you can get being on the other side, with zero city control and constantly threatened to have 1v10 fight, where you can't down even a single digit because they all cross-heal.

geonsocal wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

^ That is why people stack. For protection. Same reason why animals form herds - for protection. Less likely for some predators to attack, and even if - it is easier to defend.

That is the reason why I think IC is a wasted content. For the most part it is like 90% PvE stuff, but the added PvP just ruins it. That is the reason why IC is pretty much empty 24/7. Because it is not enjoyable from PvE perspective and also not enjoyable from PvP perspective.

The only way to somehow make IC more popular is to either remove PvE or PvP (so only one would be left & tel-var will be for killing players only, not mobs) or just to separate it into 2 instances - one PvE only, & the other PvP only.

or, make it so that no one can group, no alliances - pve zone with pvp rulesets...it would be interesting to see what would happen...

You mean free for all? I know what would happen. People on voicechat would still group up and now they won't have anyone to oppose them.

geonsocal

divnyi wrote: »

You mean free for all? I know what would happen. People on voicechat would still group up and now they won't have anyone to oppose them.

maybe things will turn out okay...

Iriidius

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

although they gain almost nothing from this.

They kill bosses in circle run with 6-flag control. That's more than what you can get being on the other side, with zero city control and constantly threatened to have 1v10 fight, where you can't down even a single digit because they all cross-heal.

geonsocal wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

^ That is why people stack. For protection. Same reason why animals form herds - for protection. Less likely for some predators to attack, and even if - it is easier to defend.

That is the reason why I think IC is a wasted content. For the most part it is like 90% PvE stuff, but the added PvP just ruins it. That is the reason why IC is pretty much empty 24/7. Because it is not enjoyable from PvE perspective and also not enjoyable from PvP perspective.

The only way to somehow make IC more popular is to either remove PvE or PvP (so only one would be left & tel-var will be for killing players only, not mobs) or just to separate it into 2 instances - one PvE only, & the other PvP only.

or, make it so that no one can group, no alliances - pve zone with pvp rulesets...it would be interesting to see what would happen...

You mean free for all? I know what would happen. People on voicechat would still group up and now they won't have anyone to oppose them.

I am sure that many of the groups in IC are not doing it to kill IC Bosses because I never see them fighting Bosses in IC. They also dont group up for Protection.They only group up to zerg every player they see on the horizon, even if it is a 100 cp quester. And often Players in the Zerg are strong enaugh to kill Bosses solo, they just prefer zerging. If you kill a boss with 10 players the Tel Var you get is very low.

And the faction stack doesnt have any opposition anyway because players on other Alliances deny to group up to defend against them.

divnyi

Iriidius wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

although they gain almost nothing from this.

They kill bosses in circle run with 6-flag control. That's more than what you can get being on the other side, with zero city control and constantly threatened to have 1v10 fight, where you can't down even a single digit because they all cross-heal.

geonsocal wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

^ That is why people stack. For protection. Same reason why animals form herds - for protection. Less likely for some predators to attack, and even if - it is easier to defend.

That is the reason why I think IC is a wasted content. For the most part it is like 90% PvE stuff, but the added PvP just ruins it. That is the reason why IC is pretty much empty 24/7. Because it is not enjoyable from PvE perspective and also not enjoyable from PvP perspective.

The only way to somehow make IC more popular is to either remove PvE or PvP (so only one would be left & tel-var will be for killing players only, not mobs) or just to separate it into 2 instances - one PvE only, & the other PvP only.

or, make it so that no one can group, no alliances - pve zone with pvp rulesets...it would be interesting to see what would happen...

You mean free for all? I know what would happen. People on voicechat would still group up and now they won't have anyone to oppose them.

And often Players in the Zerg are strong enaugh to kill Bosses solo, they just prefer zerging. If you kill a boss with 10 players the Tel Var you get is very low.

Zerg surfers are generally bruisers, and it might take em very long time to solo the boss.

You get 800-1200 telvars on x3. Given how fast you can kill bosses with a group, it's still faster than to solo bosses under all-enemy flags for 3.6k.