What I see above my target's head 90% of the time in current META

EmperorIl

(5487)(1432)
*343 (4364)
*154 (435)
2487
(2342)(1436)
(7894)*873
*258

xylena_lazarow

What does this represent for those of us who don't use all those popup numbers in the ui?

MEBengalsFan2001

One in () typically means that it is eating at a damage shield.
*XYZ are damage reduction from blocking or a set that increases damage reduction
The 2487 would be normal damage.

That is my guess based on what I see as a healer or tank in PVE content.

Urzigurumash

Sounds like you need to juice up your orange

Necrotech_Master

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

One in () typically means that it is eating at a damage shield.
*XYZ are damage reduction from blocking or a set that increases damage reduction
The 2487 would be normal damage.

That is my guess based on what I see as a healer or tank in PVE content.

pretty much this

(number) is your dmg absorbed by a shield

*number is your dmg after being blocked

number with no modification is your dmg (this number is affected by resistance/dmg reduction, but no clear indication of how much its affecting your "base" number)

number! (with exclamation) is crit dmg (can also be seen in combination with above)

the numbers are also color coded as well
white = direct dmg
orange = dot dmg
yellowish = crit dmg

(these values are base game dmg numbers, assuming you are not using an addon that alternates display of the dmg numbers)

i also use combat addons to track this kind of stuff too (combat metrics for pve primarily, and foundry tactical combat (only for the scrolling combat log for both pvp and pve) to get a better picture of incoming/outgoing dmg/healing than the death recap or quickly check dmg done/taken with attack

EmperorIl

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

What does this represent for those of us who don't use all those popup numbers in the ui?

Basically just griping on the amount of mitigation there is right now, it is just silly at times. Even dropping oils on people and seeing it do only three digit damage is just lol.

xylena_lazarow

EmperorIl wrote: »

Basically just griping on the amount of mitigation there is right now, it is just silly at times. Even dropping oils on people and seeing it do only three digit damage is just lol.

The power ceiling for mitigation and healing far exceeds that of damage right now. Even a partially optimized group that stacks heals and uses Siege Shield will trivially counter most siege damage. Optimized groups struggle to kill each other, even in BGs we see matches going to timer with the winning side barely having 300 points.

Heal stacking breaks PvP.

SkaraMinoc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Optimized groups struggle to kill each other, even in BGs we see matches going to timer with the winning side barely having 300 points.

Just played a similar game this morning. Each team had a strong healer.

Winning team had 135 points.

EmperorIl

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

Basically just griping on the amount of mitigation there is right now, it is just silly at times. Even dropping oils on people and seeing it do only three digit damage is just lol.

The power ceiling for mitigation and healing far exceeds that of damage right now. Even a partially optimized group that stacks heals and uses Siege Shield will trivially counter most siege damage. Optimized groups struggle to kill each other, even in BGs we see matches going to timer with the winning side barely having 300 points.

Heal stacking breaks PvP.

I've had a good few matches like that, I never recall a deathmatch that was not won by a team prior to ending before this patch lol.

And when I am dropping these oils there is no siege shield, straight up only doing 3-digit damage and shield a lot of the time, but yes the healing is over the top as well. Giving literally every player the ability to cross heal is the dumbest thing in this game. I really miss the trinity when it comes to crap like this.

EmperorIl

EmperorIl wrote: »

(5487)(1432)
*343 (4364)
dodge
*154 (435)
dodge
2487
(2342)(1436)
dodge
dodge
dodge
(7894)*873
*258

How did I forget the other one?!?!

divnyi

Active damage mitigation costs resources to use. It works? Good, because it should.

You can still kill the player that uses active defences, but you need to apply stronger pressure than he can outsustain. In teamfights that generally means identifying the weakest links and group-pressuring them until they die.

EmperorIl

divnyi wrote: »

Active damage mitigation costs resources to use. It works? Good, because it should.

You can still kill the player that uses active defences, but you need to apply stronger pressure than he can outsustain. In teamfights that generally means identifying the weakest links and group-pressuring them until they die.

There is this thing called balance....games use it to balance damage with mitigation. This game does not do it well.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Have you noticed that these tanks are now starting to form mini ball groups and travel in packs of 5-6 now? Usually they got at least one tanky healer in the group too. These fellas are normally playing solo, but now more and more often they are teaming up and its driving me nuts. Same people that will complain to me about teaming up on solo players are now teaming up on solo players themselves. I really really don't like this meta. The normal strategy of zerging the tanks until they die doesn't work at all when there is 6 of them healing each other. It isn't balanced in 1v1s and the balance is even worse when they team up.

Daffen

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you noticed that these tanks are now starting to form mini ball groups and travel in packs of 5-6 now? Usually they got at least one tanky healer in the group too. These fellas are normally playing solo, but now more and more often they are teaming up and its driving me nuts. Same people that will complain to me about teaming up on solo players are now teaming up on solo players themselves. I really really don't like this meta. The normal strategy of zerging the tanks until they die doesn't work at all when there is 6 of them healing each other. It isn't balanced in 1v1s and the balance is even worse when they team up.

Experienced players form groups because 1vx is almost impossible compared to before, you can maybe win a 1v5 but it is alot harder and sometimes impossible. Most likely you will just get zerged by 10+ people anyway and die no matter what. So we form groups of 2-5 players so we are actually able to kill players. We kill solo players because we know they would do the same (except the ones we know are friendly). I have be over 4k hours in this game and i dont need to build tanky to survive multiple players with less experience (magplar with kynmarcher + olorime + magma)

Einstein_

Daffen wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you noticed that these tanks are now starting to form mini ball groups and travel in packs of 5-6 now? Usually they got at least one tanky healer in the group too. These fellas are normally playing solo, but now more and more often they are teaming up and its driving me nuts. Same people that will complain to me about teaming up on solo players are now teaming up on solo players themselves. I really really don't like this meta. The normal strategy of zerging the tanks until they die doesn't work at all when there is 6 of them healing each other. It isn't balanced in 1v1s and the balance is even worse when they team up.

Experienced players form groups because 1vx is almost impossible compared to before, you can maybe win a 1v5 but it is alot harder and sometimes impossible. Most likely you will just get zerged by 10+ people anyway and die no matter what. So we form groups of 2-5 players so we are actually able to kill players. We kill solo players because we know they would do the same (except the ones we know are friendly). I have be over 4k hours in this game and i dont need to build tanky to survive multiple players with less experience (magplar with kynmarcher + olorime + magma)

"i dont need a deffensiv build"

runs magplar with kynmarcher in heavyarmor and propaply a restro staff/eclipse

not saying its a bad build, but its [snip] tanky

[edited for profanity bypass]

NerfSeige

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Optimized groups struggle to kill each other, even in BGs we see matches going to timer with the winning side barely having 300 points.

Just played a similar game this morning. Each team had a strong healer.

Winning team had 135 points.

It was not like this at the start of the patch but 90% of BGs are starting to become like this for me. It's really crazy as most of the time it's 15min time's up that ends the game.

BGs (on my experience this later this patch) is a contest on which team got more sweaty players.

I say ZOS should nerf mitigation modifiers (prot) and/or healing but that would be more punishing for the newbies so yeah... IDK.

NerfSeige

EmperorIl wrote: »

(5487)(1432)
*343 (4364)
*154 (435)
2487
(2342)(1436)
(7894)*873
*258

I'll add something like this, lol.

689
689
689

(Dk on corrosive) ZOS we need nerfs please!

xylena_lazarow

Daffen wrote: »

We kill solo players because we know they would do the same

Being zerged down in an open world zerg game is to be expected, but the attitude of these sweaty groups that they are still outnumbered skill heroes as they 6v1 the "zergling" in an empty field definitely creates toxicity.

Edit: not directed at you or anyone in this thread, rather several recent incidents with smallscalers getting salty that I dared play Cyrodiil instead of standing there watching them flip the keep.

Vizirith

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Optimized groups struggle to kill each other, even in BGs we see matches going to timer with the winning side barely having 300 points.

Just played a similar game this morning. Each team had a strong healer.

Winning team had 135 points.

Yeah that was bad and it shouldn't have even been that high. I was the 0/5 templar on green. He's in pariah/hconq. Pure solo setup, was expecting to need all my own self heals and tankiness from not actually playing any high "mmr" bgs. Only group heal was HTD. And main damage was jabs spam. The 0/7 guy kept asking in group chat what was going on.

And even then barely anybody died except under negates.

As an aside the mmr is based purely on bgs played right? Is each character counted separately and does it ever reset? Because I thought it did but haven't been on that guy for like 6 months and even then barely ever did bgs.

xylena_lazarow

Vizirith wrote: »

As an aside the mmr is based purely on bgs played right? Is each character counted separately and does it ever reset? Because I thought it did but haven't been on that guy for like 6 months and even then barely ever did bgs.

Maybe they "break the rules" in order to keep the queue moving when there aren't enough players queueing?

NerfSeige

Vizirith wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Optimized groups struggle to kill each other, even in BGs we see matches going to timer with the winning side barely having 300 points.

Just played a similar game this morning. Each team had a strong healer.

Winning team had 135 points.

Yeah that was bad and it shouldn't have even been that high. I was the 0/5 templar on green. He's in pariah/hconq. Pure solo setup, was expecting to need all my own self heals and tankiness from not actually playing any high "mmr" bgs. Only group heal was HTD. And main damage was jabs spam. The 0/7 guy kept asking in group chat what was going on.

And even then barely anybody died except under negates.

As an aside the mmr is based purely on bgs played right? Is each character counted separately and does it ever reset? Because I thought it did but haven't been on that guy for like 6 months and even then barely ever did bgs.

Yep, based on match played.

It’s sad that pop is so low right now (at least on ps/na), maybe 50% of my matches the past few days are about 2 persons each team until around half time. And sometimes one team will not even fill at the end of the match.

Vizirith

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

As an aside the mmr is based purely on bgs played right? Is each character counted separately and does it ever reset? Because I thought it did but haven't been on that guy for like 6 months and even then barely ever did bgs.

Maybe they "break the rules" in order to keep the queue moving when there aren't enough players queueing?

The queue popped fairly quickly though. I was thinking it was a fluke. I only have 18 wins on that toon via achievements so at most I probably have 50 or less total bgs spaced out over 3 years (first bg achievement).

xylena_lazarow

Vizirith wrote: »

The queue popped fairly quickly though. I was thinking it was a fluke. I only have 18 wins on that toon via achievements so at most I probably have 50 or less total bgs spaced out over 3 years (first bg achievement).

It sure is weird, wish we had more transparency from ZOS on how the queue worked. That screenshot though pretty much sums up why the BGs population is so low. Another way that heal stacking breaks PvP.

MEBengalsFan2001

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you noticed that these tanks are now starting to form mini ball groups and travel in packs of 5-6 now? Usually they got at least one tanky healer in the group too. These fellas are normally playing solo, but now more and more often they are teaming up and its driving me nuts. Same people that will complain to me about teaming up on solo players are now teaming up on solo players themselves. I really really don't like this meta. The normal strategy of zerging the tanks until they die doesn't work at all when there is 6 of them healing each other. It isn't balanced in 1v1s and the balance is even worse when they team up.

Don't forget their ganking NB friend who will try to take out the players using siege on the ball group.

Best way to kill a ball group is with siege equipment. To often I see players running into ball groups only to wonder why they died. Simply because you ran into the ball group. Back away, setup siege (the more the merrier) and go at it until the ball group dies.

EmperorIl

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you noticed that these tanks are now starting to form mini ball groups and travel in packs of 5-6 now? Usually they got at least one tanky healer in the group too. These fellas are normally playing solo, but now more and more often they are teaming up and its driving me nuts. Same people that will complain to me about teaming up on solo players are now teaming up on solo players themselves. I really really don't like this meta. The normal strategy of zerging the tanks until they die doesn't work at all when there is 6 of them healing each other. It isn't balanced in 1v1s and the balance is even worse when they team up.

Don't forget their ganking NB friend who will try to take out the players using siege on the ball group.

Best way to kill a ball group is with siege equipment. To often I see players running into ball groups only to wonder why they died. Simply because you ran into the ball group. Back away, setup siege (the more the merrier) and go at it until the ball group dies.

Extremely situational though, especially when they are all wearing Snow Treaders and stacking swift and/or Rapids. When they are more mobile good luck getting that siege on them with the delay between aiming and firing.

Daffen

EmperorIl wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you noticed that these tanks are now starting to form mini ball groups and travel in packs of 5-6 now? Usually they got at least one tanky healer in the group too. These fellas are normally playing solo, but now more and more often they are teaming up and its driving me nuts. Same people that will complain to me about teaming up on solo players are now teaming up on solo players themselves. I really really don't like this meta. The normal strategy of zerging the tanks until they die doesn't work at all when there is 6 of them healing each other. It isn't balanced in 1v1s and the balance is even worse when they team up.

Don't forget their ganking NB friend who will try to take out the players using siege on the ball group.

Best way to kill a ball group is with siege equipment. To often I see players running into ball groups only to wonder why they died. Simply because you ran into the ball group. Back away, setup siege (the more the merrier) and go at it until the ball group dies.

Extremely situational though, especially when they are all wearing Snow Treaders and stacking swift and/or Rapids. When they are more mobile good luck getting that siege on them with the delay between aiming and firing.

Meh, just use dark convergence to pull people in the back making them stuck for 5 seconds in prime time lag. Then use plaguebreak to literally one-shot them if they are purging.

Speaking from experience of playing in a ballgroup at prime time (45k plaguebreak multiple times, break free 4 times and standing still with snow threaders after getting pulled by dark convergence)

xylena_lazarow

Daffen wrote: »

Meh, just use dark convergence to pull people in the back making them stuck for 5 seconds in prime time lag. Then use plaguebreak to literally one-shot them if they are purging.

This only "works" if the lag is bad enough and it's one of the lesser ballgroups prone to such mistakes. The stronger ballgroups are literally never going to be stuck inside a meatbag or negate long enough to matter, and any dot siege you throw at them is trivially outhealed, if you can even hit them when they move so quickly and are immune to soft cc.

Magio_

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Optimized groups struggle to kill each other, even in BGs we see matches going to timer with the winning side barely having 300 points.

Just played a similar game this morning. Each team had a strong healer.

Winning team had 135 points.

None of those teams healstacked though. To me it's obvious to see that "Diamond rank" healers were put in a "Gold rank" match. iIt's a 15 minute long match and there's several Damage Dealers (DD) with under 1m dmg done. Obviously nobody will die. Green had 2 such players, why that team had 0 kills. Orange had a 4m dmg done DDs, but those numbers are usually achieved on AoE DoT builds, which are fluff dmg until you have more than one or you have strong burst teammates, which they didn't have with another sub-1m-dmg-done DD.

This would also explain why the queue was short for the lower rank players. The healers were probably in queue for 10+ minutes until their MMR depreciated enough to be elegible for the match in the picture. Could also be high skilled on players on new characters.

xylena_lazarow

Magio_ wrote: »

None of those teams healstacked though.

I guess I was counting the 100k heal guys as non-trivial cross healing, but either way, does this look like a healthy BGs meta and queue to you? Cyro too is full of stalemated fights where tryhards can't kill other tryhards.

Magio_

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Magio_ wrote: »

None of those teams healstacked though.

I guess I was counting the 100k heal guys as non-trivial cross healing, but either way, does this look like a healthy BGs meta and queue to you? Cyro too is full of stalemated fights where tryhards can't kill other tryhards.

Do you consider players doing 511k and 440k Dmg in a full 15 minute match tryhards? Of course those healers capable of doing 2m+ in 15 mins ate that damage for breakfast.

Look bro, all I'm saying is that pointing at that particular BG Screenshot and saying "See! Healstacking is a problem" is inaccurate and even detracts from your argument. It's just a case of High MMR healers in a low MMR match.

xylena_lazarow

Magio_ wrote: »

Look bro, all I'm saying is that pointing at that particular BG Screenshot and saying "See! Healstacking is a problem" is inaccurate and even detracts from your argument. It's just a case of High MMR healers in a low MMR match.

Are you trying to say that heal stacking isn't a problem, or jump on me over a technicality? What do you think happens when healers like that are stacked 6 out of 12 in a tryhard Cyro group? I'm just trying to agree with the OP that a meta dominated by healing and tanking is slow, stale, and driving players away from the game. And again, do you think that screenshot is a sign of a healthy BGs environment?