Necro needs some love

Zezin

Necromancer is by far my favorite class in the game because of it's versatility, it is however lacking in damage in content, it doesn't matter much if you can parse as much as the other classes in a dummy if you still do 20% less damage than the 3 button zoo sorc whenever you're doing actual content. As it is right now necros are only good as buff bots and to clear trash packs.

KilianDermoth

Are we playing the same game? Usually Necros do the same or even more damage than Sorcs and even provide more group buffs, while doing so! Just look at alsmot any log at esologs.com and you will see many necros perfoming better than most Sorcs...

If you really do 20% less damage than a Sorc its not a class problem its more a skill / experience / gear difference between you and the sorc you are comparing yourself too.

Everest_Lionheart

Blastbones is probably the hardest hitting non execute skill in the game. As for the rest of the rotation it can take a few seconds to get going but Necro will absolutely melt things with ease. For what it’s worth go out and get yourself a good rotation with skulls (or force pulse depending on content) and you will feel plenty strong enough. I know everyone loves the dot rotation but it’s way less consistent and not as user friendly in content. Master your rotation and you will outperform most of the frag spammers when you learn to prioritize targets. The only difference is they will likely outlive you on the hardest content because sorc has the better survivability.

That said they could make BB and skulls less wonky. They are fickle skills where moving your cursor slightly off the target can cause them not to fire. Or even better your BB just stands there looking for a target because it got LOS by an add. That’s crap gets old fast and IMO is the only adjustment the class needs. That and maybe a decent exe to change up the old stale rotation from time to time, Necro is basically a pure damage bot, nothing less nothing more.

DontWorryAboutit

Zezin wrote: »

Necromancer is by far my favorite class in the game because of it's versatility, it is however lacking in damage in content, it doesn't matter much if you can parse as much as the other classes in a dummy if you still do 20% less damage than the 3 button zoo sorc whenever you're doing actual content. As it is right now necros are only good as buff bots and to clear trash packs.

I cant believe i just read that^^^

Vevvev

Lacking damage? They hit incredibly hard and some of their abilities are the ones I'm always worrying the most about in PvP. In PvE they perform pretty high on the list when using the right combination of abilities and proper rotation.

katorga

I play both, sorc wins by 10-20% with a super simple rotation. But it is mostly single target. Frags hits way harder than BB. I can't emphasize enough how simple magsorc dps rotations are. That means it is a lot easier to maintain high dps even in complex fights.

Necro has a klunky rotation that is hard to maintain in content. No one needs the group buffs any more and sorcs minor prophecy group buff is better. The nerf to crit during execute really hurt necro, imo. If I'm not absolutely spot on with my necro, dps is abysmal. Like get kicked from a group abysmal.

KilianDermoth

Logs tell a different story...

But yeah, sorc might be easier for getting higher single target damage.

But a difference of more than 10% is more a skill, experience (with the class) and rotation or gear thing and not how well the classes can perform, otherwise the logs would tell another story.

Also group buffs from the Necro aren't needed!? Thats just nonsense. Do you even play hard content (especially vet trials)? Almost any group aims for 3 Necros for a reason, while more than one sorc isn't really needed.

Zezin

Logs DON'T tell a different story, as I said necros are great for trash packs, but if you filter the log to only include boss fights you will see a very different story, have any of you ever been into vAS with a Necro? Now about vHoF? vCR? No?

Zezin

The way to fix this is simple as well, just change rapid rot in a way to also buff AOE damage, you can nerf the DOT buff to keep it balanced.

Ippokrates

Yeah, Necro is not as easy as Sorc (the same things goes for NB), but experienced player can pull really nice numbers in every role (last time Necro tank survive whole group killed by last boss in DC XD).

It has really nice corpse mechanics that require a lot of effort to master but can provide a nice boost to dmg & sustain.

Really powerful Ultimates & ultimate regeneration.

Probably one of better passives in the whole game.

Sure, they require potions or guild skills for crit/weapon dmg but overall it is not a big price really good class skills.

Just take your time and practice.

NerfSeige

Check out eso-logs, I did at least on vas, vcr, and vrg.

I only checked the top scores with logs so we can know they are really good players and no learn to play issue.

What I saw was necro and sorc doesn’t really sit far as you’re implying and though nbs does not perform the best on parse this patch, they are still king on live dps.

So yeah, sorc is beginner friendly (frag spamming monkeys) but necro hits the same or higher with a steeper learning curve.

Zezin

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yeah, Necro is not as easy as Sorc (the same things goes NB), but experience player can pull really nice numbers in every role (last time Necro tank survive whole group killed by last boss in DC XD).

It has really nice corpse mechanics that require a lot of effort to master but can provide a nice boost to dmg & sustain.

Really powerful Ultimates & ultimate regeneration.

Probably one of better passives in the whole game.

Sure, they require potions or guild skills for crit/weapon dmg but overall it is not a big price really good class skills.

Just take your time and practice.

Except Necro does about 20 ~ 30% less damage than NB in places like vAS

Zezin

Check the top logs for Necro if you don't believe me, the best necros are outdone in every single one

NerfSeige wrote: »

Check out eso-logs, I did at least on vas, vcr, and vrg.

I only checked the top scores with logs so we can know they are really good players and no learn to play issue.

What I saw was necro and sorc doesn’t really sit far as you’re implying and though nbs does not perform the best on parse this patch, they are still king on live dps.

So yeah, sorc is beginner friendly (frag spamming monkeys) but necro hits the same or higher with a steeper learning curve.

the best Necro in vAS does 20% less damage than a nightblade.

KilianDermoth

vAS+2 Boss fight (highest ranked accessible log):
https://www.esologs.com/reports/3LbwPqkKyZrXRHgQ#fight=1&type=summary

The Necro player does 6,3% more damage than the Sorc and the Sorc is specced into full DD, while the Necro wears support gear and is still doing more damage than the Sorc! With a full DD setup the Necro would even hit harder.

Also you could have a look at the overall statistics here:
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/7/#boss=23

I main a Sorc myself and I know at least one dragon knight player who outperforms me, do I think that Sorcs are totally weak (even if they are really lacking in a few regards) and that dragon knights are overpowered? No! Probably Sorcs are still better than Dragon Knighs for DDing. Skill just does matter much when comparing classes, especially those that arent far apart like Sorcs and Necros.

Edited: I misread that you meant Sorcs do 30% more damage than Necros.

NerfSeige

Zezin wrote: »

Check the top logs for Necro if you don't believe me, the best necros are outdone in every single one

NerfSeige wrote: »

Check out eso-logs, I did at least on vas, vcr, and vrg.

I only checked the top scores with logs so we can know they are really good players and no learn to play issue.

What I saw was necro and sorc doesn’t really sit far as you’re implying and though nbs does not perform the best on parse this patch, they are still king on live dps.

So yeah, sorc is beginner friendly (frag spamming monkeys) but necro hits the same or higher with a steeper learning curve.

the best Necro in vAS does 20% less damage than a nightblade.

I mean, you're complaining with necro vs sorc. And my personal opinion is that NBs are really the best on live content, not because of passives and whatnots, but because of their lack of ground target aoe's.

Makes it easier to weave vs a crap ton of ground target on necro.

I don't really get you, you were first complaining with the sorc's frag spamming monkey playstyle vs necro but they do hit the same on live content.

This is pulled from vAS>rankings>highest with associated log (not leaderboard based): https://www.esologs.com/reports/3LbwPqkKyZrXRHgQ#fight=1&type=damage-done

Top NB is 91k, top cro is 77k, that's ~18% difference. Necro on buff gear, I'd say that's not too bad.

KilianDermoth

@NerfSeige
Funny thing is that I see many Nightblades complaining that nightblades are one of the worst classes now since the critical damage cap and everyone else is hitting harder now...

Ippokrates

Zezin wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yeah, Necro is not as easy as Sorc (the same things goes NB), but experience player can pull really nice numbers in every role (last time Necro tank survive whole group killed by last boss in DC XD).

It has really nice corpse mechanics that require a lot of effort to master but can provide a nice boost to dmg & sustain.

Really powerful Ultimates & ultimate regeneration.

Probably one of better passives in the whole game.

Sure, they require potions or guild skills for crit/weapon dmg but overall it is not a big price really good class skills.

Just take your time and practice.

Except Necro does about 20 ~ 30% less damage than NB in places like vAS

If you are making a statement, provide data.

But even if, that would not be an issue, cause ST are area of NB specialization and AS is mostly ST fights.

Zezin

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/7/#metric=dps

Third to last in vAS only behind Magicka Warden and memeplars.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/15#metric=dps

Third to last vRG

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/14#metric=dps

vKA the place where magcro does best in and still behind DK this patch.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps

Bottom half in SS a place where most of the fights the bosses stay in the same spot

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/6#metric=dps&boss=20

Surprisingly good damage on vHoF

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/5#metric=dps

Middle of the pack for vMoL


Most of these are only decent because even though Necro is not doing that good templar is doing even worse. There's not a single trial where magcro is ahead of the others, yes there are some places where it does ok compared to other classes but the point still stands.

Zezin

Now let's look at damage done to bosses to eliminate trash packs

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/15#metric=bossdps

RG bottom

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/14#metric=bossdps

Middle of the pack for KA

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=bossdps

Bottom half

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/8#metric=bossdps

CR Middle of the pack

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/7#metric=bossdps

Maybe complaining about AS was not the best point just because of how much NB is op there

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/6#metric=bossdps

HoF magcro is behind all other Magicka specs, I doing know why stamcro is second place there as I don't play stamcro.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/5#metric=bossdps

Again magcro is only ahead of Magicka Warden.

Note that in most fights Magicka ncro is behind almost all other Magicka specs the only reason you see necromancer at the middle is because of the stamina specs(of which admittedly Necro is the king of the trash, yes stamina is trash for PvE has been for a while).

Zezin

A part of the confusion here is my fault admittedly, I'm a Magicka necromancer, not a stamina one and should have specified that as well.

Zezin

I'm fairly new at the forums and I have no idea how to edit a post lol.

NerfSeige

Bro, don’t look at that. Look at the top logs cause necro got a very steep learning curve cause of multiple ground target aoe.

So yeah, if you factor in other players that needs to learn to play necro, they really will suck.

KilianDermoth

To your original claim, that Sorc is much stronger than Necro. Even if we look only at boss fights and even if we compare Both at Magic and forget about the Staminaspecs (where the Sorc is definitly worse, bottom end or even the worst of all classes) based on the data you provided it looks like this:

Asylum Sanctorium: The Sorc is stronger. But only the absolut Maximum has a big difference of about 10% (might be even a single player that just outperforms anyone else). The Quartiles and Median are very close to each other, about 5% and less of difference!

Rockgrove: The Sorc is slightly stronger, but just about 1-2%. Thats in the measurement inaccuracy.

Kyne's Aegis: The Necro performs in any regard about 10% up to 20% better than Sorcs.

Sunspire: Necros maximum performance is about 1% higher than the Maximum of the Sorc and Sunspire is a trial where Single Target Damage can really shine! Only the lower end of Sorc performances are slightly better than those of Necros but I guess this is because Sorcerer are easier (not stronger).

The Halls of Fabrication: About the same maximum performance. The Necro has a almost 10% better median performance while also being worse at the lower end (again probably because of how easy / difficult the classes are, not because of strength).

Maw of Lorkhaj: Sorc Maximum is less than 5% better. The lower end is even about 50% worse than those of Necros. Median is very similar.

Cloudrest: Sorc is more than 10% behind the Necromancer at Maximum. Median is worse. Minimum is similar.

Conclusion:
The Sorc performed only one time notably better and only at the Maximum not at the Quartiles or at the Median, which might be due to a single good player who just outperformt. And even here the biggest difference was about 10% in favor to the Sorc.

In all other cases the difference was to low to be called a real difference and in many cases the Necromancer was even stronger than the Sorc, one time even up to 20% and the other time up to 50%.

I still dont see that Sorcs shall be 20% stronger than Necros. I see the total opposite of what you said. In general Necros perform better, even at the lower end where they should be worse, because they are more difficult to play, but still outperformed sourcerers many times.

So, if a class should get some love, I vote for sure for Sorcs, especially Stam Sorcs or no / single pet Sorcs, but not for Necros!

Edit for the Edit-Thing: If you want to edit your post, hover over it then you will see a little gear on the top right corner of your post (its only visible if hovered), press it and choose Edit. But you wont see it if you just created a new Post, you have to refresh the page (F5) first.

Edit2:
@NerfSeige Even considereing what you said, Necros seem to be outperforming Sorcerers (Median and Lower Quartile).

Edit3:
I have seen that your first post was about total DPS and the links of your second post about boss DPS, thought that they were the same links. Nevermind, it looks that Sorc is better there (but not always), still I dont see that big difference of about 20% here, except in Asylum Sanctorium for the maximum (quartiles and median are almost the same, the lower end is even worse), while Necromancer still wins in every aspect in Cloudrest and Kynes Aegis.

Still a similar conclusion.

Zezin

NerfSeige wrote: »

Bro, don’t look at that. Look at the top logs cause necro got a very steep learning curve cause of multiple ground target aoe.

So yeah, if you factor in other players that needs to learn to play necro, they really will suck.

That includes all players, if you only include veteran people then it's obviously going to be

KilianDermoth wrote: »

To your original claim, that Sorc is much stronger than Necro. Even if we look only at boss fights and even if we compare Both at Magic and forget about the Staminaspecs (where the Sorc is definitly worse, bottom end or even the worst of all classes) based on the data you provided it looks like this:

Asylum Sanctorium: The Sorc is stronger. But only the absolut Maximum has a big difference of about 10% (might be even a single player that just outperforms anyone else). The Quartiles and Median are very close to each other, about 5% and less of difference!

Rockgrove: The Sorc is slightly stronger, but just about 1-2%. Thats in the measurement inaccuracy.

Kyne's Aegis: The Necro performs in any regard about 10% up to 20% better than Sorcs.

Sunspire: Necros maximum performance is about 1% higher than the Maximum of the Sorc and Sunspire is a trial where Single Target Damage can really shine! Only the lower end of Sorc performances are slightly better than those of Necros but I guess this is because Sorcerer are easier (not stronger).

The Halls of Fabrication: About the same maximum performance. The Necro has a almost 10% better median performance while also being worse at the lower end (again probably because of how easy / difficult the classes are, not because of strength).

Maw of Lorkhaj: Sorc Maximum is less than 5% better. The lower end is even about 50% worse than those of Necros. Median is very similar.

Cloudrest: Sorc is more than 10% behind the Necromancer at Maximum. Median is worse. Minimum is similar.

Conclusion:
The Sorc performed only one time notably better and only at the Maximum not at the Quartiles or at the Median, which might be due to a single good player who just outperformt. And even here the biggest difference was about 10% in favor to the Sorc.

In all other cases the difference was to low to be called a real difference and in many cases the Necromancer was even stronger than the Sorc, one time even up to 20% and the other time up to 50%.

I still dont see that Sorcs shall be 20% stronger than Necros. I see the total opposite of what you said. In general Necros perform better, even at the lower end where they should be worse, because they are more difficult to play, but still outperformed sourcerers many times.

So, if a class should get some love, I vote for sure for Sorcs, especially Stam Sorcs or no / single pet Sorcs, but not for Necros!

Edit for the Edit-Thing: If you want to edit your post, hover over it then you will see a little gear on the top right corner of your post (its only visible if hovered), press it and choose Edit. But you wont see it if you just created a new Post, you have to refresh the page (F5) first.

Edit2:
@NerfSeige Even considereing what you said, Necros seem to be outperforming Sorcerers (Median and Lower Quartile).

I'm not trying to bash sorcs, I just want some buffs to magcro. I've played word for years as a beginner because of how easy it was and it made me kind of hate the class because of the gameplay (annoying pets, the necromancer pets are way better).

The point is that overall magcro is lagging behind most other classes in most fights, I'm sorry if it came out as necromancer vs sorcerer, that was not my intent.

Zezin

NerfSeige wrote: »

Bro, don’t look at that. Look at the top logs cause necro got a very steep learning curve cause of multiple ground target aoe.

So yeah, if you factor in other players that needs to learn to play necro, they really will suck.

What I meant to say was that NB also have somewhat of a learning curve and those graphs show inexperienced players for all classes not just necromancer.

KilianDermoth

I dont think that Necromancer are behind most other classes, they are somewhere in between (as Sorcs are). But there are classes that just outshine in a few situations.

ealdwin

Zezin wrote: »

I'm fairly new at the forums and I have no idea how to edit a post lol.

On Desktop, look for a gear near the comment number on the right, and click on it. The dropdown should say "Edit".

On mobile, there should similarly be a gear in the top right that will also display an "Edit" option at the bottom of the screen.

Edit:
For posts, look near to the right of the post title, and there should be the gear symbol to find the "Edit" option.

Everest_Lionheart

Trying to remember the last time I got to play full damage as a Magcro myself. I’m either in MA or running EC Brittle on mine. The idea behind every buff bot like mine is to keep constant pressure to execute where your NB’s can really shine. I will happily trade a 10% DPS loss to my own numbers for a buff of 10-15% to the rest of the group. If it means they don’t have to run trap and can slot a shield or heal for those oh crap moments than even better. It’s all about those buff uptimes and it’s a trade you must make if you ever want to complete some of the vet hard modes.

katorga

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Logs tell a different story...

But yeah, sorc might be easier for getting higher single target damage.

But a difference of more than 10% is more a skill, experience (with the class) and rotation or gear thing and not how well the classes can perform, otherwise the logs would tell another story.

Also group buffs from the Necro aren't needed!? Thats just nonsense. Do you even play hard content (especially vet trials)? Almost any group aims for 3 Necros for a reason, while more than one sorc isn't really needed.

Major vulnerability is available from more than just necro now, and parse builds don't use Colossus for max dps. I don't get the "omg" gotta have it vibe as much now. Just saying. Catalyst is wanted sometimes, and I keep it in my inventory, but it is situational based on crit damage cap.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Logs tell a different story...

But yeah, sorc might be easier for getting higher single target damage.

But a difference of more than 10% is more a skill, experience (with the class) and rotation or gear thing and not how well the classes can perform, otherwise the logs would tell another story.

Also group buffs from the Necro aren't needed!? Thats just nonsense. Do you even play hard content (especially vet trials)? Almost any group aims for 3 Necros for a reason, while more than one sorc isn't really needed.

Depends. I don't get the "omg, gotta have colossus" vibe like I used to, but I'm also not running with laser-focused trials group.

OP was talking about the dps delta between the two classes, not the dps delta between a support necro and a dps sorc.
Hands down for the majority of players, sorc will give higher numbers with less effort.

Brrrofski

Zezin wrote: »

The way to fix this is simple as well, just change rapid rot in a way to also buff AOE damage, you can nerf the DOT buff to keep it balanced.

No thanks.

That would be awful for PvP.

Zezin

Brrrofski wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

The way to fix this is simple as well, just change rapid rot in a way to also buff AOE damage, you can nerf the DOT buff to keep it balanced.

No thanks.

That would be awful for PvP.

Blastbones would do even more damage for pvp, same for the synergy from graveyard.