Bring back the 24/36 Death Limit

Rudrani

This was a really good design. (If your group dies more times than allowed, you lose, and the enemies win).

It should be a part of the Vet toggle, or at least a trial-wide Vet hardmode.

UntilValhalla13

Then most prog groups would just disband. Could you imagine trying to prog kynes aegis or rockgrove hard mode as a newer group with a death limit...

NerfSeige

As if endgame pve is not small enough. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Araneae6537

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Then most prog groups would just disband. Could you imagine trying to prog kynes aegis or rockgrove hard mode as a newer group with a death limit...

Agreed. That’s why there are achievements for not dying. Personally, I don’t see anything beneficial being added by such a mechanic. And it would probably exclude new people as too much of a liability.

Zatox

I don't really like this concept of "death limit", I prefer "wipe limit"
IMHO, groups must be punished for wipe, not for a single death. And all "no-death" achievements should be "no wipe".

Secret ice boss in black drake villa is a good example - you have only a few attempts, but you can resurrect allies with no restriction.

Ippokrates

If you are dying, you are learning.

If you are not dying, you are probably in some achievement oriented group.

So no, bad idea.

UntilValhalla13

Zatox wrote: »

I don't really like this concept of "death limit", I prefer "wipe limit"
IMHO, groups must be punished for wipe, not for a single death. And all "no-death" achievements should be "no wipe".

Secret ice boss in black drake villa is a good example - you have only a few attempts, but you can resurrect allies with no restriction.

I mean, groups are punished enough with wipes by wasting time and potions. XD imagine a new main tank trying to learn how to position falgravn's blood pools with a wipe limit. If the tank dies, it's a pretty good chance that a prog group will get wrecked shortly after. That's at least 15-20 minutes wasted to get back to that point for him to try again. It's bad enough that you might have 3 good pulls on him before the instance itself becomes unplayable.

VaranisArano

I don't want to think about how frustrating that would be for someone learning Vet Maelstrom. Imagine having to no death the earlier arenas just to save your limited deaths for poison plant RNG and the final boss. And then if you mess up, all the way to the beginning with you!

Er, no thanks.

RogueShark

Nah.

Trifectas and then scorepushing is already available. No reason to enforce an arbitrary death limit when literally all that will do is hinder and frustrate those who are progging and learning the content.

Vevvev

I understand wanting failure of quests in a game, but in these types of game modes it's not healthy at all for ESO. Too much that can go wrong and potential for trolling and hatred amongst the group. Single player scenarios I don't see an issue, but in group ones no thank you.

Vaoh

This was horrible design and I’m glad they changed it. We need more incentive to join endgame PvE.... not less

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Some people just want to watch the world burn...

karekiz

Ask for ESO Classic server

Rudrani

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Then most prog groups would just disband. Could you imagine trying to prog kynes aegis or rockgrove hard mode as a newer group with a death limit...

I imagine it would go like this...

We would first have to prog GETTING to Yandir.
Then once we are good at getting to Yandir, we would have to prog killing Yandir.
Then once we can kill Yandir we would have to prog getting to Vrol.
Etc.

But honestly, I think this is ONE OF THE BEST ideas in a video game I have heard of. Make it possible for the game to win.

Also, I suggest it should be incorperated as a part of the hardmode toggle. So, toggle hardmode from the start of a trial - not at specific bosses.

This way you can prog vet as usual.

Rudrani

Zatox wrote: »

I don't really like this concept of "death limit", I prefer "wipe limit"
IMHO, groups must be punished for wipe, not for a single death. And all "no-death" achievements should be "no wipe".

Secret ice boss in black drake villa is a good example - you have only a few attempts, but you can resurrect allies with no restriction.

YES, THE ICE BOSS WAS AN AWESOME DESIGN!

hafgood

Just no, I don't want to get all the way to the final boss in a vet trial only to have one person die and us all get booted out because we hit the limit.

Thats not a learning experience. Thats not how you learn. Thats a frustrating experience.

As you learn to do trials you improve and you make fewer mistakes and die less, this is obvious by the score you get.

SickDuck

The only problem with limitless death is it allows bypassing most of the trash, using a "Run, Die, Resurrect" approach. This is not very creative and ignores part of the challenge. It also allows to bypass certain trickier boss fight mechanics as long as it happens to a few group members, since ESO allows in-fight resurrection. Cost of death is basically negligible: soul gems are abundant, repair cost is low.

While I think death limit should not be brought back, nor the cost of death increased, there should be some counter measures to avoid people abusing aforementioned methods.

Same stands for dungeons too (ie. rushing).

Rudrani

@SickDuck i agree totally. i think people just want to "accomplish" stuff, but if you make mount everest 1000 meters shorter and then climb it, is it really that exciting?

"Hardmodes" need a revamp,.... its the same deal except the final boss, or on new ones every boss (better!). There should be a hardmode toggle for the entire dungeon/trial, and part of the hardmode is the death limit.

RogueShark

The hardmode for the hardmodes/whole trial or dungeon is literally the trifectas. You can't die even once to get those so there's no need for a death limit.

Necrotech_Master

RogueShark wrote: »

The hardmode for the hardmodes/whole trial or dungeon is literally the trifectas. You can't die even once to get those so there's no need for a death limit.

definitely this

the old limited rezzes were dumb (and made me not want to even attempt doing trials)

trifectas are already hard enough (and if you really care, using up all of your "deaths" does impact your score if you were score pushing even if you werent going for trifecta)

Rudrani

oh well. i guess im the only one who thinks this was a cool, verycool, idea.

hafgood

It's fine, if you know you can complete the trial within the death limit, its no good if you can't. Most progs can't, at least to start with, so they at least can complete at the moment even with too many deaths, they will then slowly improve to, possibly, get to your level

Minno

Mechanics like this make sense on paper, but in actuality they don't provide meaningful playing experiences. It is better to add mechanics to bosses or more classes/abilities than it is to put up road blocks.

In an MMO you want the cost of entry to be minimal but the ceiling to be VERY high in terms of allowing the players in a group to accomplish. Another weird mechanic that MMO devs sometimes fall into are difficulty mechanics where the dmg and health are increased instead of more mechanics added. That also puts up a fake barrier that doesnt mean the encounters will be fun, just another system that adding a dps or changing dps gear solves in a matter of days instead of mastery of the encounters that usually take months.

Artim_X

Your idea is just bad. As others have mentioned there are already no death achievements. If someone dies the game wins, no ifs ands or buts. Dearh limits for just clearing content is not fun.

SickDuck

Rudrani wrote: »

oh well. i guess im the only one who thinks this was a cool, verycool, idea.

As others mentioned it could a variant, but for regular runs it would be toxic. I remember the days when going to trials was a big privilege, now pug trials are very much a thing, even for veteran runs. Imagine, who would take inexperienced people on a training run if one single noob could prematurely end a run? Or a griever?

karekiz

I think dungeons should have this - 8 deaths - group fails. Someone runs ahead, just kill yourself over and over and wipe the dungeon.

Amottica

It sounds very punitive to the point it seems it was a good idea they removed it if this was actually part of raids.

Further, it would be pointless to make it a toggle because no one would turn it on. Well, no one would turn it on unless it added points to the run, and then it would not matter because the top groups will clear without that many deaths making the added points fairly purposeless.

For the less-than-stellar groups that still end up being able to clear trials, it would just hammer them down for no reason if it was not a toggle.

So in the end it is not very friendly and provides no benefit to the game.

MindOfTheSwarm

Araneae6537 wrote: »

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Then most prog groups would just disband. Could you imagine trying to prog kynes aegis or rockgrove hard mode as a newer group with a death limit...

Agreed. That’s why there are achievements for not dying. Personally, I don’t see anything beneficial being added by such a mechanic. And it would probably exclude new people as too much of a liability.

Agree 100%. Positive incentives for not dying trump negative ones. Reward good play. Don’t punish players trying to learn.

Merlin13KAGL

I remember plenty of times we'd be doing vSO (when that was the end game) only to have the Manti bug out and force a 12 man wipe.

3x of that and there was no point in going on. Your group could be doing everything right and get screwed by the game to a point of no continuance.


Death limit has always been a bad idea. It's why they just worked it into the overall score instead. It might be different if the game actually responded dynamically, properly, and consistently.

Ippokrates

Yeah, intentional wipes due to bugs (hello Falkreath -_- ) or hm activation are another aspect of the issue.