The New RNG System

DestroyerPewnack

Let me preface this thread by saying, this is not a complaint. I am not suggesting we should go back to the old RNG system, nor am I saying I am in favor of the new one. All this is, is an observation to some (perhaps) unintended consequences of the change.

From what I have seen, if you're farming a certain set piece, random people in dungeons are either less likely to help (because they'd rather complete their own sticker books,) or unable to help (because they have already collected the piece you're looking for in previous runs.)

For this example, imagine someone trying to get a specific weapon or jewelry piece. Most dungeons have 45 of those (15 per set.) I will also assume that in the old RNG system, people help 100% of the time, and in the new RNG system, people never help, (either because they don't want to, or literally can't.) For argument's sake.

In the old RNG system, each one of you had a 1/45 chance of getting it. There's 4 of you, so that's 4/45, or 8.89% chance. This is accounting for the chance of some of you getting duplicates.

In the new RNG system, in your first run, your chance is 1/45, or 2.22% chance. It will take you 33 more runs, to bring your chances up to 1/11, or 9.09% chance, to finally have better odds than you used to in the old RNG system.

One might argue that, at least in the new RNG system, you might get lucky and get the piece you want during the first 34 runs, or from a master chest, but these advantages were present in both the old and the new systems. The true benefit of the new RNG system becomes apparent after 34 runs.

We've all heard of people running a dungeon 200 times, and not getting the piece they want, but these were really exceptions. The old system worked well, for the most part. So, in essence, the new RNG system severely increases the time it takes the average player to get a specific set piece, for the sake of ensuring no players, no matter how few, have to run a dungeon 200 times.

Again, not saying good or bad, or that my math is flawless. Just an observation.

Jaimeh

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

We've all heard of people running a dungeon 200 times, and not getting the piece they want, but these were really exceptions. The old system worked well, for the most part. So, in essence, the new RNG system severely increases the time it takes the average player to get a specific set piece, for the sake of ensuring no players, no matter how few, have to run a dungeon 200 times.

I don't think these exceptions are that are rare, since a lot of people didn't have medusa inferno or BSW inferno after years of trying. Not to mention the hundreds of runs for vMA infernos. And with the old system, it might have been 4/45 for the whole group, but that chance would 'reset' with every run. With the new system, it's cumulative, so there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and given the nature of RNG, it can and has taken literrally 700 runs for someone to get their desired piece, so I'd take guarranteed 45 over that (and it can of course be less than that).

DestroyerPewnack

It can be less than 45, in both systems. I'm comparing the likelihood of getting what you want.

You are right! The chance would reset in the old RNG system. But your chance will still be 8.89% every run, which is more than what it is in the new RNG system, for the first 34 runs.

I suppose another benefit of the new RNG system is that certain people can now sell dungeon weapons, by not collecting them and leaving them last. This gives people who are willing to pay a 100% chance of getting their weapon first run, provided they can find a seller.

Ippokrates

No, they were not exceptions. Stories about AC, CoA or MA in pursuit of Inferno staff became a regular part of ESO life. Bah, even now, i still do not have BSW Inferno, although I ran through CoA many times since update 32.

So no, this rng system is optimal because if you need something, you can put yourself to the task and do it. That's how i got Kinras Dagger and Inferno Staff, although i made two dozens of runs in three days. In the old system I simply ignored such endeavour.

SickDuck

45 runs is the absolute maximum (unless ofc bugs). With chests and maybe some trading it should be around 30 to get EVERYTHING. That is not a huge number and if someone is really desperate for a piece can do it in 1-2 days running normal rounds.

Also about the trading, it is assuming the best of the old vs. the worst of the new system. Many times people are not bothering to trade regardless if they need the pieces or not (ie. lot of people leaving normal runs at the second the last boss drops dead). If you are going with mates then they can be asked nicely to trade you the desired piece regardless of their collection status, unless they are after the same piece themselves. But in that case it does not differ from the old system either.

Imho the current system is really great and strong, having a limited amount of luck factor actually adds to the flavor.

DestroyerPewnack

SickDuck wrote: »

45 runs is the absolute maximum (unless ofc bugs). With chests and maybe some trading it should be around 30 to get EVERYTHING. That is not a huge number and if someone is really desperate for a piece can do it in 1-2 days running normal rounds.

Also about the trading, it is assuming the best of the old vs. the worst of the new system. Many times people are not bothering to trade regardless if they need the pieces or not (ie. lot of people leaving normal runs at the second the last boss drops dead). If you are going with mates then they can be asked nicely to trade you the desired piece regardless of their collection status, unless they are after the same piece themselves. But in that case it does not differ from the old system either.

Imho the current system is really great and strong, having a limited amount of luck factor actually adds to the flavor.

Yup! And if your friends are also missing the piece you're after, and they already have other pieces collected, then that improves your total odds. Instead of four 1/45's, you'll get a mix of bigger fractions.

However, I still don't think the comparison was unfair. Even if we were to assume that people were equally willing to help (despite my recent experience saying otherwise,) they might simply be unable to help, if they've already collected the piece you're after. This was not a problem in the old system.

Another thing worth mentioning is that, over time, more and more people will have everything collected from the popular dungeons. They will practically go back to the old RNG system, and I imagine they'd be more willing to help, as it's cheaper to reconstruct a piece from a set you've completed, than to transmute an existing piece for better traits.

I repeat. I'm not saying the new RNG system is bad. It's just that, from personal experience (and I'm not 700-runs-unlucky,) I've noticed that it takes me longer now to get the piece I want. The math up there explains it.

AlnilamE

I always ask at the beginning of a dungeon if anyone is looking for gear, and if they are I won't bind those particular items if I get them.

But so far, the only replies I've gotten were people who said they are collecting for the sticker book themselves.

And you are underestimating the chests, because one of the dungeons I ran this week gave me weapons out of both chests.

DestroyerPewnack

I think you're over-estimating them, especially now that there's a hard cap on how many chests can spawn.

AlnilamE

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I think you're over-estimating them, especially now that there's a hard cap on how many chests can spawn.

There's always been a hard cap, except some dungeons were bugged.

DestroyerPewnack

AlnilamE wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I think you're over-estimating them, especially now that there's a hard cap on how many chests can spawn.

There's always been a hard cap, except some dungeons were bugged.

Oh? I had no idea.
But my point was that you only get 2 or 3 chests. Each one gives you a small chance of getting a set piece; a smaller chance it's a piece you haven't collected yet; a smaller chance that it's from the set you want; an even smaller chance that it's the actual piece you want.
So, while they definitely help, it's not really a lot.

AlnilamE

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I think you're over-estimating them, especially now that there's a hard cap on how many chests can spawn.

There's always been a hard cap, except some dungeons were bugged.

Oh? I had no idea.
But my point was that you only get 2 or 3 chests. Each one gives you a small chance of getting a set piece; a smaller chance it's a piece you haven't collected yet; a smaller chance that it's from the set you want; an even smaller chance that it's the actual piece you want.
So, while they definitely help, it's not really a lot.

It's 2 chests per dungeon, but Arx had 3 and WGT had 3 as well. And Blackheart Haven sometimes has one chest that still follows the old rules, ie, only one player can loot them.

I believe if you are running vet, the chests at at a minimum intermediate, which, with the Treasure Hunter passive should pretty much guarantee a set piece, and those are not curated.

redspecter23

I think it depends on your goal. If your goal is to get one piece or a very specific set of pieces, the RNG of the old system along with friends to swap with that already have that piece might lead to getting it sooner. It could also lead to getting it slower if luck is bad.

If your goal is to collect all the pieces, the new system is better by a significant margin as those later pieces will come much faster.

So it depends on a personal play pattern for dungeon farming. I'm looking to collect every piece so the new system has already saved me thousands of hours and likely thousands more in the future as I continue to complete dungeon sets over time. Some sets like the Maelstrom base sets could have taken hundreds of hours alone to complete.

Xebov

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Let me preface this thread by saying, this is not a complaint. I am not suggesting we should go back to the old RNG system, nor am I saying I am in favor of the new one. All this is, is an observation to some (perhaps) unintended consequences of the change.

Your argumentation is based on that you rely on other players loot and that they give it to you. That was never the case, previously you had players not giving things away and for specific weapons there was a big likelyhood that other players where there for the exact same reason. As a result you always had your 1/45 chance and you relied completely on your luck and that other might have luck and give it to you. That resulted in way over 45 runs for some players.

The new system removes luck nearly entirely. You might be lucky to get your item fast, but ultimatively you no longer rely on other players to increase your odds to get it in the first place. You should also not forget that we are at the beginning of the update. Many players will now bit by bit complete their collection and later on they will be more than willing to share loot which means that you will take even less time than before.

kojou

I see your point, but at the same time a lot of players haven't filled out a "sticker book" for even one dungeon, yet.

Over time, the amount of players that fill up their book for content will increase, and we will get back to the 8.89% + a little more since the farming player will still only get things that he/she are missing.

I had a whole list of things that I have farmed previously, but gave up on, and didn't get until after this system was implemented, so I for one have benefited by it greatly.

Fennwitty

I think there has to be a separation that the issue is on jewelry and weapons, not armor.

Armor in the new system, you'll fill out every single body piece in comparatively few runs -- and it goes back to random drops.

Very few people are asking for armors anymore in PUGs, except when an item drops in a 'good' trait because that would save them some transmutes.


For certain highly desirable items there's always been high demand. Daggers for stam dps sets and fire staves for mag dps sets for instance. Because the playerbase is skewed toward having more DPS characters, there's always been hot 'competition' to get the specific items.

I think in the first couple months people are in a 'yay must fill stickerbook gotta catch em' all!' mode, but that will cool off.


Very frequently players have no interest in sets, for example dedicated DPS players have no immediate use for almost any tank or healer gear, and will freely let those go to whoever needs it.

As players get more used to it, they'll also realize if they *maybe* need an item in a year or so -- they were interested in starting a Healer but haven't gotten around to it -- they won't have a tremendous hassle trying to get it themselves later. So they can afford to give away what's immediately useful to other players in the group.

Grega

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Let me preface this thread by saying, this is not a complaint. I am not suggesting we should go back to the old RNG system, nor am I saying I am in favor of the new one. All this is, is an observation to some (perhaps) unintended consequences of the change.

From what I have seen, if you're farming a certain set piece, random people in dungeons are either less likely to help (because they'd rather complete their own sticker books,) or unable to help (because they have already collected the piece you're looking for in previous runs.)

For this example, imagine someone trying to get a specific weapon or jewelry piece. Most dungeons have 45 of those (15 per set.) I will also assume that in the old RNG system, people help 100% of the time, and in the new RNG system, people never help, (either because they don't want to, or literally can't.) For argument's sake.

In the old RNG system, each one of you had a 1/45 chance of getting it. There's 4 of you, so that's 4/45, or 8.89% chance. This is accounting for the chance of some of you getting duplicates.

In the new RNG system, in your first run, your chance is 1/45, or 2.22% chance. It will take you 33 more runs, to bring your chances up to 1/11, or 9.09% chance, to finally have better odds than you used to in the old RNG system.

One might argue that, at least in the new RNG system, you might get lucky and get the piece you want during the first 34 runs, or from a master chest, but these advantages were present in both the old and the new systems. The true benefit of the new RNG system becomes apparent after 34 runs.

We've all heard of people running a dungeon 200 times, and not getting the piece they want, but these were really exceptions. The old system worked well, for the most part. So, in essence, the new RNG system severely increases the time it takes the average player to get a specific set piece, for the sake of ensuring no players, no matter how few, have to run a dungeon 200 times.

Again, not saying good or bad, or that my math is flawless. Just an observation.

Disagree with pretty much everything. It takes a lot less time now. So to say new system increases the time, that is fundamentally false.

As far as peoples helpfulness, you as a person assume what is called “negative intent”. Not unusual, many people go through life like that. But if you assume “positive intent”, then you would have no notion that helpfulness would decrease.

In my experience:

Because of the new system and how it works, everyone is constantly checking gear and binding it throughout the run to ensure best and accurate drops (including un curated drops from chests) and at the end any surplus items from chests people have been more likely to share with the team because they were aware of the dropped items, thanks to the new system.


In the old system, there was no need for binding, people would often not look at the gear they got, and leave the group as the last boss was hitting the ground. I’d say over the course of years I maybe got a person to even check what they got at the end once out of 10 runs. Now, with new system, every other or third run there are people discussing gear at the end.

🙂

SickDuck

There are 2 chests per dungeon, unless it's bugged, but afaik these days it is pretty much correct. With the Treasure Hunter perk those chests are extremely valuable since they can drop any of the pieces. Just based on the amount of items the last boss drops vs the others (45 vs 21), there is a good chance getting a weapon or jewelry. Looting those chests will cut collection time significantly.

Bear in mind that with a good casual play, doing daily pledges and normal random runs (picking up chests!) it still requires less time to complete your collection than to level up a horse.

Stopnaggin

I would much rather have a static number of times I have to run a dungeon than what we had before. I was well over 200 runs in Arx before I got my Medusa staff. I know for a fact I was well over 400 runs of Maelstrom for the perfected flame staff. Even though most of the groups I run with always list extras at the end, if they needed the same thing it wasn't helping me. So if we ran BRP for my daggers, if they got them and needed them they were more likely to keep them. Whereas now they know that eventually those items will drop. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. The problem with the old system is that 8% number resets every time. And I know for a fact my RNG is not good enough for those odds without getting super frustrated.