Do you think classes have identity and are fully represented?

mocap · December 2021

Yes, classes have identity.

since OP didn't state what exactly identity he talk about, i'd say yes - they have identity.

1) Visual identity of class skills
2) Unique skills like Cloak or permanent pets
3) Some unique passives
4) Roles where some classes can do their job easier or even better than others (Templar healer > tank, DK tank > healer)
5) Role play indentity for sure

NotaDaedraWorshipper · December 2021

Things are too colour gimmick focused. Sorcerers aren't users of conjuration or destruction, they are users of purple. Nightblades are users of red etc.

They all feel cliché and gimmicky, not very Elder Scrolls. Necromancers being an obvious case of this. Instead of getting Elder Scrolls necromancers who are pretty gross appearing with flies, rot, zombies, ghosts and wraiths etc, we got Hollywood Halloween necromancers with teal colour as choice, skeleton hands, graveyards oooOoo spooky, scythes and other nonsense.

Stamina versions of classes are too much weapon abilities focused with little class options.

ResidentContrarian · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Mainly because gear is playing the game now. Gear makes too much of an impact right now, and it has for a while.

Finedaible · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

In my opinion they try to mix in too many themes into the few classes which do exist, which ultimately thins out their identity.

Take Warden for example, one tree is basically "Beast Taming" except there aren't any actual beasts aside from the bumbling bear and it's simply a collection of spells which count as pets. Then there's the plant-based healing tree, and then there's... Ice Magic for some reason? At least the first two themes fit into the Y'ffre 'Druid/spinner' description somewhat but Ice magic seems the polar opposite of plant magic, and it's their tanking tree too, except now it kinda buffs ice damage. It's just cluttered together.

If they gave enough skills for each of the classes' trees and made passive trees - not generic buffs like the CP system but passives which actually change how you play the class - and allowed us to SPECIALIZE in some areas, then classes would already feel more distinct. Problem is, you need at least one or more skills from each tree to achieve a competent build and then they made guild and weapon skill lines so important for filling in the gaps that you gimp yourself if you stick with only class skills. With only a small skill bar at any one time, this severely limits your creativity and build. This 'play how you want' philosophy was poorly interpreted into homogenizing everything. What is even the point of choosing a class when you end up using the same stuff in the end?

Nightblade is about the only class that looks/feels the most distinct, which is probably because their theme is simple; Shadow Magic. It's a class of magic they never really gave players before and they were able to do some cool things with it. Unfortunately, a lot of the unique things Nightblades had sorta got taken away from them over the years and given to other classes for sake of balance and homogenization. I mean let's be real, reworked Bound Armaments is mechanically similar to Grim focus. Nightblades also had access to some unique debuffs which got so homogenized and redistributed to other classes and sets to the point the debuffs don't even have value (still waiting for a buff which makes Reaper's Mark relevant again when everyone is running Kinras's Wrath and other bs).

I'm sure that with another year in this direction they will have made classes even more boring than they are now.

Sylvermynx · December 2021

Raideen wrote: »

Man, I am at pulling part of the video. This really makes me miss my hunter in WOW (old school, not the current game).
I loved pulling mobs for the tank and CCing, or even off tanking with my PET.

I wish I could control my pets in ESO like I could in wow.

QFT.

Ippokrates · December 2021

Yes, classes have identity.

TES in general do not have as strong class identity as for example D&D. Sure, there were classes in pre-Skyrim games, but all of them use the same collection of skills, just in different mix.

Also, lorewise, TES were always a meme when it comes to all organization a main hero could become a boss or champion (although in Morrowind it wasn't as easy as in Skyrim ^^ ), so i am not sure that class identity is something ESO should pursue.

But yeah, each class have some specific skills and passives that work better with some sets or setting, even if it is stamina, so despite some similarities, each of my alt has slightly different playstyle. But maybe it is because i am trying to optimize each alt with FUN in mind, instead of cummulating as many FG skills as I can and using the same equipment for every class, because of META - in this case, sure, every build look the same xd

Raideen · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Man, I am at pulling part of the video. This really makes me miss my hunter in WOW (old school, not the current game).
I loved pulling mobs for the tank and CCing, or even off tanking with my PET.

I wish I could control my pets in ESO like I could in wow.

QFT.

It really annoys me how pets in ESO are a complete afterthought. There is no way to control them reliably, to keep them on the desired target, ESPECIALLY not in PVP where you can die in a global.

In wow I had macros (made in game with their macro window). I made an ATTACK macro and a PASSIVE macro

ATTACK
/petattack
/mendpet

PASSIVE
/petfollow
/petpassive
/mendpet

I bound those two one key on my mouse. Thumb button for attack, Shift modifer thumb button for pet passive/follow.

In 17 years of that game, I have never used pets on "auto" and it annoys the heck out of me on my sorc and warden. Hitting Y and LMB is too slow in fast paced combat.

I really wish we could use modifers in this game for keybinds. Its annoyed me since my first day in ESO 4+ years ago

Entegre · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Nice Feedback we have gathered here. I want to clarify that I did not want to limit identity to any content, visual or endgame or quest. In my honest opinion the class identity is present in visuals (if skills are viable in the content) and certain buffs they provide. But nonetheless there could be more options in the overall game, certain shortcuts could be present in quests and/or mechanics

Kwoung · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Raideen wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Man, I am at pulling part of the video. This really makes me miss my hunter in WOW (old school, not the current game).
I loved pulling mobs for the tank and CCing, or even off tanking with my PET.

I wish I could control my pets in ESO like I could in wow.

QFT.

It really annoys me how pets in ESO are a complete afterthought. There is no way to control them reliably, to keep them on the desired target, ESPECIALLY not in PVP where you can die in a global.

In wow I had macros (made in game with their macro window). I made an ATTACK macro and a PASSIVE macro

ATTACK
/petattack
/mendpet

PASSIVE
/petfollow
/petpassive
/mendpet

I bound those two one key on my mouse. Thumb button for attack, Shift modifer thumb button for pet passive/follow.

In 17 years of that game, I have never used pets on "auto" and it annoys the heck out of me on my sorc and warden. Hitting Y and LMB is too slow in fast paced combat.

I really wish we could use modifers in this game for keybinds. Its annoyed me since my first day in ESO 4+ years ago

Never played WoW, but EQ2 was the same. I had complete control over my pets, how and when they agroed, what they attacked, when they attacked, etc... Heck, I could sic my pet on the mob the tank was on, or simply tell it to only assist the tank, regardless of what I had targeted at the time. Pet control was huge, especially since you didn't want to endure the wrath of the group if your pet was running around breaking mez, as that was surely a way to wipe, and wipe recovery was no easy feat unto itself.

Amottica · December 2021

Yes, classes have identity.

Raideen wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Man, I am at pulling part of the video. This really makes me miss my hunter in WOW (old school, not the current game).
I loved pulling mobs for the tank and CCing, or even off tanking with my PET.

I wish I could control my pets in ESO like I could in wow.

QFT.

It really annoys me how pets in ESO are a complete afterthought. There is no way to control them reliably, to keep them on the desired target, ESPECIALLY not in PVP where you can die in a global.

In wow I had macros (made in game with their macro window). I made an ATTACK macro and a PASSIVE macro

ATTACK
/petattack
/mendpet

PASSIVE
/petfollow
/petpassive
/mendpet

I bound those two one key on my mouse. Thumb button for attack, Shift modifer thumb button for pet passive/follow.

In 17 years of that game, I have never used pets on "auto" and it annoys the heck out of me on my sorc and warden. Hitting Y and LMB is too slow in fast paced combat.

I really wish we could use modifers in this game for keybinds. Its annoyed me since my first day in ESO 4+ years ago

The same can be said about the companions in ESO. We only have control over them being present and use of their ultimate. I cannot recall any other control we have over what they do.

Nanfoodle · December 2021

Yes, classes have identity.

I can clearly tell what class I am facing in PvP. I know I get excited when I see certain classes fill certain roles. If I am running dungeon and I see my tank is a Templar I breath a sigh of releaf.

You can't expect the same cut identy you see in games like EQ. That was my first MMO love but ESO is its own gem. Any class can fill any role but they do it differently and not equally. So there will be some blurred lines.

Vaoh · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Nope not anymore. The combat team has a certain vision for ESO combat and it follows this pattern:
• Every ability within each subcategory (single target, AoE, DoT, etc) will deal the same damage/healing + 1 “unique” effect.
Example: Soul Trap returns resource, Flame Reach applies burning, Poison Injection gains execute modifier, Degeneration gives a buff, Rending Slashes adds a HoT, Swarm adds a debuff.... all have the same base damage. You get the idea.
• Every single class follows the same rotation and usually gear too. It’s so ingrained in the classes that most players can’t imagine combat being any different from Backbar DoTs > Spammable > repeat in this game.
• On the topic of classes feeling the same, Necromancers and Magdens legit have the same rotation due to Shalks/Blastbones.

This is why I tell players to pick their favorite playstyle/element and stick to it. All classes can do any content or role and complete even the toughest achievements like Planesbreaker. You may as well pick the class rotation color you like best lol.

RandomKodiak · December 2021

Yes, classes have identity.

I said yes but it does come with a very large BUT...... In endgame score pushing no there is very little room for diversity among the roles/classes. As long as you are not going for the endgame Vet Hard Mode Trial scores you can do great (60-80k) dps on almost any class with a build you feel it's suited for. I have in the last year made an all lightning magsorc, all frost mag warden , all animal stam warden, all poison stam DK, etc...... It is even easier now than it ever has been to do these things with the most recent patch. In all games there is always going to be the "meta" builds but if you are not trying to score push now is definately the time to shine with off meta builds. If you get a group of like minded people together who want to do fun builds you can get Vet hardmode in any dungeon with 2 dps doing 60-80 on the trial dummy. Will it be a cake walk, maybe not but doable so have fun. For transparency I have beaten every Vet trail and dungeon in this game save for the last trial and 2 dungeons with a bow/bow Bosmer Stamsorc, almost all before this year when things got even easier for all classes.

mickeyx · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Absolutely not. Anyone who has played Elder Scroll games know for a fact how limited class system is in ESO and your are forced to play a certain way and pigeon holed into certain builds.

the1andonlyskwex · December 2021

Some classes are better than others. MagDK probably has the strongest identity of the bunch because it's so focused on fire damage.

That said, some of that focus is because of imbalances between the various destruction staves rather than the class itself. Additionally, magDK's identity was even stronger prior to the u32 sustain changes, because having poor sustain drove magDKs into different build styles compared to other classes (because you had to lean so hard into burning status effects).

Most other classes aren't nearly as well differentiated. It would be nice if sorcerers had more reasons than a 5% damage boost to lean into lightning builds, for example.

The biggest challenge is with stam builds though. I actually like the fact that stam classes are so reliant on weapon skills (and actually dislike the fact that ZOS keep adding stam morphs to class skills), but that makes it even more important for class passives to encourage different classes to build in different ways. Pure stat buffs and things that only affect class skills don't really help in that regard, while things like DK's Combustion and Elder Dragon (range increase) passives are good examples of skills that help drive unique build choices and play styles.

ZOS claimed they were working on a major passive rebalance sometime around u21, but it never really materialized into anything. I would love to see them revisit that idea, with a focus on using passives to push different classes into fundamentally different play styles (and by "play styles" I mean things like damage types and gear/skill choices, NOT tank/healer/DPS roles).

Sylosi · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

It probably has the least class identity of any MMORPG I've played. Some of the reasons for that:

1 - The majority of skills in the game are available to every class (skills for world, guild, weapon, armour, alliance war, etc)

2 - Every class can use all the weapons and all armour weights.

3 - Every class can be any race.

4 - All classes can do all roles, albeit some are better at certain things than others. Plus there are only 3 roles, some games separate things like buffing/debuffing/CC into their own classes/ roles.

5 - Every class uses the same mechanics (stamina, magicka, etc)

Anifaas · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Compared to all the other MMOs and RPGs I've played ESO, without a doubt, has the least class identity. I can particularly notice this when I see class abilities taking second place to global talents, potions and seeing everyone more or less apply the same rotations: Apply short buff > weave/spam.

Without PvP I suspect that we might see more class identity but esport/pvp has a nasty habit of eroding pve in rpgs. I think the symptoms of this are much worse in games like WoW though.

For the most part I am fine with the way things are in ESO though because at lower levels of play it provides for lots of experimentation and fun. But I can certainly understand why the highest-performing players and the veterans might want something more.

HyekAr · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

No, classes have gradually had their identity taken away over time untill now they are all the same, if anyone asked me what class to play coming into ESO i would just ask what their favorate colour is.
Oh you like red, play a nightblade.

I remember how cool it was what the DK could use igneous weapons and eveyone had fire damage added to their attacks.
When the warden had a delay on cliff racer instead of an homogonised class spammable.
When the templar could use Sun Shield and be unique in its pvp play style
the list goes on,

Every class uses the same skills, the same gear the same rotation. if you want to run something different and embrace whats left of your class identity, you do so at a cost.

AGREE,

There is no any deep involvemnt into class route, most of the skills are similar between classes.

Distribute damage sort between classes, and only leaving few of them as generic(like poision, physical, magical)

Create damages like: holly, dark, undead, water, earth exclusive for classes

I think the best way to make this different is changing by costumization of the weapon skills

So even if there is the same weapon, there should be different skills/ way of use for different class

I think there should be created a special commision for this, discuse this and try to remake each class one by one think what they really want from each class, how they expect them how the community see it, if its match, if really a "NightBlade/Neceo/dk/etc" has role relation with the skills, what should mark difference,etc

Destai · December 2021

Yes, classes have identity.

I don't think class identity is strong in stamina builds. Most class skills are magicka-based to begin with, so it feels very retro-fitted to have stamina morphs. There just aren't enough stamina morphs to give a solid identity. And for the classes that do have stamina morphs, the visuals differ slightly if at all.

Magicka builds have a bit more personality and variety between classes, even if there's common weapon skills.

Finedaible · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Mainly because gear is playing the game now. Gear makes too much of an impact right now, and it has for a while.

This has bothered me for the longest time. It has always been about the sets you are wearing and not the class you are playing.

It would seem the dev team considers proc sets - or sets in general - to be the same as expanding your character' "skills" (or abilities, talents, whatever you want to call them). The reason why I think this, is the emphasis on new sets with each update. They never added anything directly combat related after Summerset if we don't count Necro class, but even Necro was subjected to the homogenization that killed off all other class identity. Psijic skill line only added one clunky offensive skill too which is literally only used in niche setups or if nothing better is available.

Franchise408 · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

This game has 0 class identity. This game has role identity.

Outside of some small details, all classes play the same within their chosen roles. Tanks, DPS, and healers, will all use the same gear, same glyphs, use the same skills, same mundus, etc. for their chosen role.

This game has an illusion of choice. You might think that you have 6 classes, each capable of playing 3 different roles, but due to the need to use the same gear, weapon skills, etc. it ends up being 3 character types: tank, DPS, and healer, and they are all the same.

Franchise408 · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Kwoung wrote: »

My answer to the question...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXlSBJRwYAY

I've recently gone back to EQ, and even a 23 year old game is still leagues better than ESO.

Challenging overland that is accessible for all levels. Mobs that actually have unique tactics that you have to strategize for. Top notch class identity.

Tieberion · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

No, I think Templars have kinda got lost in the shuffle/flavor of the month builds over other classes.

SeaGtGruff · December 2021

Ippokrates wrote: »

TES in general do not have as strong class identity as for example D&D. Sure, there were classes in pre-Skyrim games, but all of them use the same collection of skills, just in different mix.

I haven't played TES2:Daggerfall yet and so can't speak from experience about it, but classes in TES1:Arena seem to have a fair amount of identity, inasmuch as your class determines which types of armor you can wear, which types if weapons you can use, which types of shields you can use, whether or not you can cast spells on your own, and how your maximum spell power (a.k.a. "magicka") relates to your Intelligence-- plus, some classes have special abilities, such as Knights having the ability to repair their own armor, weapons, and shields.

Entegre · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

The discussion so far have been very enlightening for me. Thanks for all contributions from two different opinion. I agree with sets dominating play style rather than class choice.

Ippokrates · December 2021

Yes, classes have identity.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

TES in general do not have as strong class identity as for example D&D. Sure, there were classes in pre-Skyrim games, but all of them use the same collection of skills, just in different mix.

I haven't played TES2:Daggerfall yet and so can't speak from experience about it, but classes in TES1:Arena seem to have a fair amount of identity, inasmuch as your class determines which types of armor you can wear, which types if weapons you can use, which types of shields you can use, whether or not you can cast spells on your own, and how your maximum spell power (a.k.a. "magicka") relates to your Intelligence-- plus, some classes have special abilities, such as Knights having the ability to repair their own armor, weapons, and shields.

In Daggerfall AFAIR the were no classes, but yeah, in Arena you had limitations similar to D&D. Luckily in later games they drop this approach

EDIT: Sorry, it has classes. I mess with it with abilities points ^^

Finedaible · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Well, it's a relatively small sample size, but this poll does suggest that most agree with the lack of class identity so far.

Classes may be more equivalent in power now compared to the earliest years of ESO, but I remember classes being far more distinct than they are now. They should have left unique debuffs alone in my opinion; it made each class feel valued for bringing something unique to the group.

ealdwin · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

Honestly, it's one of those "yes and no" answers.

If Identity is defined as clearly recognizable aesthetic through colors and visuals, then yes, there is strong identity. Templars are yellow, DKs are orange, Sorcs are Purple, and so on. And there are abilities that are unique to each class that clearly define that class as being different than the others. But that has decreased gradually as the standardization efforts have been made to classify skills within different categories.

Which comes to that "no" part. Once you start digging below the first several surface layers, the identity that each class has starts to feel more like a facade than anything significant in determining how one class plays versus the other. Every DPS, Stam, Mag, Hybrid, etc. lays down 1-3 ground AoE DoTs, applies 1-2 more dots, then hits their spammable 6-10 times in a row depending on duration of DoTs. PVP you have 3-ish abilities you time to hit at the same time or close to that. That's pretty much it. Sure, that's the partly the current meta, but even during Scalebreaker everyone more or less functioned the same way. Classes fall in and out of popularity and usefulness based on what nerfs were handed out and how well they appeal to the current meta.

Stamina suffers from identity crises because they were never part of the classes. The building blocks of a Warrior were kept as universal skill trees. The building blocks of a Mage, however, were chopped up and their parts divided up and mixed with more traditional MMO themes to create casseroles that became the classes.

Now, consider in Oblivion how classes were appropriate mixes of Warrior, Mage, and Thief skills based on the play-style of that class. They weren't restrictive, because openness is a feature of TES games, but they did prefer certain skills over the others.

What ESO should have done, IMO, is provided each of the Weapon abilities as Fighter's Guild skill trees, each of the Schools of Magic as Mage's Guild skill trees, and had an ample helping of Legerdemain skill trees rather than shoving Stealth, Lockpicking, Mercantile, and more into one singular skill tree. Then created classes that provided bonuses to some of those skill lines based on the classes from Oblivion (3, 4, 5?). Each class then could have then been given 1-unique "thematic" skill line that further created identity.

Sure, that method might have led to some classes being better at certain roles than others and other classes seemingly falling into more RP roles. But, each class would have had a stronger sense of identity. By sticking with bonuses and not locking skills to classes, the openness would have been left open so a Thief could still function as a DPS, but maybe not as effectively as a Warrior or a Mage.

Nerhesi · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

You will never have class identity without making some core changes to this game.

Common skill lines need to be inferior to the class skill line (PvP and PvE)
Roles need to be better defined - if you DPS today you should be dead in 15 seconds or less in pvp. You cannot have DPS or burst anywhere near your name and have great sustain and mitigation (looking at you Templars, DKs, Sorcs - hell everybody).
You need to have subroles - you can't have someone be great at dots and direct damage. Pick one and have that choice punish all the other ones.
You need to get rid of weaving unless people specc into it somehow.

None of this appetizing because the vocal minority here enjoys the weakest part of the game - the combat mechanics.

Class identity comes from traditional MMO design choices which this MMO decided to shrug off early. Unless you are willing to have a serious conversation and think about how to attract AND retain new players, you're not going to make those difficult choices.

Casul · December 2021

No, some/all classes feel/play similar

After seeing how other games handle identity, nope.

Most classes are copy paste ideas with different animation skins.