Should tanks and healers do damage instead of buffing damage?

ixthUA

If player can do damage - they are a damage dealer, DD. But if their damage per second is weak, should tank and healer kill mobs and bosses instead? Tank can probably squeeze 5k DPS and healer will have no trouble doing 15k, which is enough for any base game veteran dungeon. Also, if DD is not doing damage, what is their role?

Amottica

No

I don’t think there is a Simple yes or no answer. It’s situational to the context and skill of the tank and more. It could help in some situations and make things worse in others.

VaranisArano

It depends entirely on the specifics of the situation and the group.

I've been in groups where the DPS was so low, it would be like buffing a pool noodle fight.

I've also been in groups where the DDs were just adequate to the task, and needed my tank CCs and buffs to put them over the top more so than they needed me to swap to damage dealing.

Tanks and Healers should use their judgment based on what the group needs. Though it's never wise to completely stop performing your role without first asking the group if, for example, they are okay if the healer stops healing to do damage itself.

Araneae6537

I agree with what has been posted. I will add that I don’t think the tank and healer are obligated to carry the damage and that it should be communicated with the group if either is going to be doing significantly less of their usual role to boost damage.

ixthUA

But armor sets that do damage and buff team are completely different. Spending 5k crowns for armory assistant and another 1.5k crowns for extra armory slot is a bit expensive. Also, what's DDs role if they don't DD?

Merforum

Yes

ixthUA wrote: »

If player can do damage - they are a damage dealer, DD. But if their damage per second is weak, should tank and healer kill mobs and bosses instead? Tank can probably squeeze 5k DPS and healer will have no trouble doing 15k, which is enough for any base game veteran dungeon. Also, if DD is not doing damage, what is their role?

DEFINITELY, when I first started playing SnB had decent damage, still less than all other melee but good enough. Because of PVP complaints they reduced SnB damage by a lot. Then for a short period there were some decent proc sets you could wear as a tank so you could actually do all tanking AND about 7-8K DPS. But scaling came along and gutted those to the ground. Haven't played since they put crit back on those but don't think it would be the same.

They did buff up 'inner beast' presumably to give tanks a bit more damage but as expected it is mostly used by DDs who make tanking even harder. Unless this was a buff for fake tankers.

Bottom line if tanks could do some damage again instead of being buffbots, tanking would be much more fun.

El_Borracho

No

If you are tanking a vet dungeon, especially a DLC dungeon, your only responsibility is tanking. If you are a healer in a vet dungeon, you should focus on healing the tank, then healing the group, then assisting in DPS. If you are a DD in one of these dungeons, you should focus on maximizing your damage, not stand in stupid, not run around doing the DPS dance, not take aggro, and only move where the tank and healer need you.

If I am a DD in one of these dungeons, I don't care how much DPS the tank can put out. All I want is the tank to hold aggro and interrupt when needed. Debuffs, heals, shields, and damage are all gravy if you can do that. But if you can't hold aggro and interrupt, leave. You are not a tank. Especially if you are touting how much DPS you can put out.

If the DDs are so poor that the tank and healer have to take over DPS, then the DDs should be the ones leaving. Tanks and healers have no obligation to carry anyone

ixthUA

El_Borracho wrote: »

If the DDs are so poor that the tank and healer have to take over DPS, then the DDs should be the ones leaving. Tanks and healers have no obligation to carry anyone

In my experience this never happened, if DDs are bad tank usually quits, then DDs queue and wait for replacement. I leave after tank.

VaranisArano

ixthUA wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

If the DDs are so poor that the tank and healer have to take over DPS, then the DDs should be the ones leaving. Tanks and healers have no obligation to carry anyone

In my experience this never happened, if DDs are bad tank usually quits, then DDs queue and wait for replacement. I leave after tank.

Part of the reason it never happens is that the DDs know they'll be waiting for a long time to queue again.

Its a lot easier to quit and requeue as a support role. My healers maybe wait five minutes. On my tank, I get antsy if I'm waiting more than a minute.

El_Borracho

No

ixthUA wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

If the DDs are so poor that the tank and healer have to take over DPS, then the DDs should be the ones leaving. Tanks and healers have no obligation to carry anyone

In my experience this never happened, if DDs are bad tank usually quits, then DDs queue and wait for replacement. I leave after tank.

Totally agree. Was responding to the OP's question that if the DDs are weak, should the tank and healer take over the damage role. While DD is what I usually do in this game, I tank quite often too. And yes, if the DDs are that bad, I quit. Because, after all, my tanks are real tanks. Not just a DD with a taunt

etchedpixels

Yes

I think it depends on the run and the goal. For random normal non DLC orr for gear speedrunning you can throw a couple of pieces of heavy gear and some buff/debuffs on one of the DDs. For veteran dlc content I'd rather be a real tank in heavy gear.

The recent changes have also made the transmuite farming situation much easier as you can use transmutes to slap level 12 yolnakriin and worms on your baby tank.

karekiz

Why Not Both?

ixthUA

karekiz wrote: »

Why Not Both?

If player queues as DD, but cannot do damage, what is their role? My Mirri can at least DPS and heal.

Elendir2am

No

I cannot vote because I would vote differently for the tank and differently for the healers.

The healer has easy way to have decent DPS. It can slot some offensive skill, or go completely one healing barr / the other DD bar.
True tank will hardly squeeze any reasonable DPS and control of enemies help much more than that.

Necrotech_Master

i personally like to build damage into my tanks, but they can still tank harder stuff (i was running with friends and whole group except me wiped on last boss of vet COA2 and i ended up just soloing the last 70% of the boss cause i wouldnt die but was still dealing decent dmg)

on normal dungeons i definitely can focus more on raw dps (my highest dmg tank can hit 12k dps while still keeping aggro control)

on my necromancer tank im using 5x leeching plate, 5x azureblight, DSA 1h/shield (front, tank bar) and DSA 2h (back, dps bar), set up with 5 med 2 heavy armor (with armor buf and DSA 1h/shield buff, i can sit at comfortable 35k armor)

being higher dmg like this allows me to much more easily do solo content instead of just being a blocker/buff bot only

if your doing something like vet trials, you are building for staying alive and providing buffs for the group because you likely are in a group comp that has decent damage dealers, dungeons are a different story, in normal dungeon even dlc ones i can easily get away with being more dps focused, in vet ones i usually have to spend a little more time staying a live and focusing on when needing to blocks cant do full dps rotations

Jusey1

I think it depends on the situation heavily. Normal dungeons and even normal trials can honestly be fine to have what I would call a "mini-tank" in (A DPS essentially that can survive and hold aggro though) but in veteran content, this shouldn't be the case. Especially in veteran trials.

Merlin13KAGL

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i personally like to build damage into my tanks, but they can still tank harder stuff (i was running with friends and whole group except me wiped on last boss of vet COA2 and i ended up just soloing the last 70% of the boss cause i wouldnt die but was still dealing decent dmg)

If a tank has time to DPS 70% of the boss, a good tank should have time to rez at least one other group member while keeping aggro.

FrancisCrawford

Dungeon healers usually fill a hybrid role: Healing, buffing, "battery", further debuffing (maybe), and damage too.

For me one part that most often swings with the nature of the specific group is Combat Prayer. Sometimes I cast it on cooldown. Other times I don't bother, and use the resources for direct damage as well.

Another swing item is the ultimate skill. Aggressive Warhorn? Rarely. The resto ultimate that also gives Major Force? Sometimes. The templar/warden ultimates that do damage and also reduce enemy damage? Frequently before they were nerfed; never now. Damage ultimates? Elemental Rage/Atronach? Usually.

Necrotech_Master

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i personally like to build damage into my tanks, but they can still tank harder stuff (i was running with friends and whole group except me wiped on last boss of vet COA2 and i ended up just soloing the last 70% of the boss cause i wouldnt die but was still dealing decent dmg)

If a tank has time to DPS 70% of the boss, a good tank should have time to rez at least one other group member while keeping aggro.

there are a few problems with doing that in the skoria fight though

if the teammates keep dying, or are dead when skoria destroys the platform, there isnt any chance to rez them (you cant rez someone in the lava, you both will end up dying)

in some cases its easier to just kill the boss than try rezing (or if rezing is not possible due to location the player died)

normally i do try rezzing as the other poeple will easily be able to out damage me and kill the boss faster, but again, not always possible/easy to do

FakeFox

Yes

Healers can get to about 50% of the DPS of a DD build in four player content without sacrificing any relevant support. How much that is in total numbers obviously depends on player skill, but for a good player it is easily enough to carry any base game veteran dungeon, while still keeping the group alive and providing good support. But as support is basically a percent damage increase to the DDs, if the healer does enough of the groups damage, you will get to a point where the damage loss for the healer from providing support is larger then the DDs damage gain from that support. You can't put a precise number on it, but I personally think if the healer does more damage than the DDs it's reasonable to not support them. For tanks it is the same logic, but as tank builds have a pretty low damage potential, I think it will rarely be worth it. That said, just tanking on a DD build with Inner Fire is always an option if the content is easy enough.

Jusey1

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If a tank has time to DPS 70% of the boss, a good tank should have time to rez at least one other group member while keeping aggro.

Isn't it the healer's job to rez a fallen DD while the tank takes care of themselves for a moment?

Merlin13KAGL

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i personally like to build damage into my tanks, but they can still tank harder stuff (i was running with friends and whole group except me wiped on last boss of vet COA2 and i ended up just soloing the last 70% of the boss cause i wouldnt die but was still dealing decent dmg)

If a tank has time to DPS 70% of the boss, a good tank should have time to rez at least one other group member while keeping aggro.

there are a few problems with doing that in the skoria fight though

if the teammates keep dying, or are dead when skoria destroys the platform, there isnt any chance to rez them (you cant rez someone in the lava, you both will end up dying)

in some cases its easier to just kill the boss than try rezing (or if rezing is not possible due to location the player died)

normally i do try rezzing as the other poeple will easily be able to out damage me and kill the boss faster, but again, not always possible/easy to do

@Necrotech_Master unless they've gone well out of their way to be away from the various small land masses speckled throughout the area, you can generally find a spot to stand to initiate the rez on one of the three that are down. Ideally, you get a pending rez on two and they come up at the same time, get out of the hot zone, and continue to assist with the boss.

I'll give you 1 of 3 that may have been close to impossible to get up. 3 of 3 sounds a bit less likely.

You can finish off the fight with literally no remaining platforms if you do it right, whether as a result of bad RNG, low DPS, or any other circumstance.

I know both of these things, because I've done them. Might not be the easiest to pull off, but 70% of the boss DPS allows time for several attempts.

You have 12 seconds between taunts. Buff, heal, dodge, block, rez, resume.

Jusey1 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If a tank has time to DPS 70% of the boss, a good tank should have time to rez at least one other group member while keeping aggro.

Isn't it the healer's job to rez a fallen DD while the tank takes care of themselves for a moment?

@Jusey1 ideally, yes.
In the situation mentioned, all other group members were down. That would include the healer.

If the tank can keep aggro and assist with a rez, it does take some of the heat off the healer. Additionally, if someone other than the healer can pull of the rez, the healer can continue to heal while the rez is taking place.

If everything goes according to plan, no one goes down in the first place. Things don't always go according to plan and a bit of flexibility can turn a wipe into a clear. There's a greater danger of interrupts than major damage in the Skoria fight if you're geared properly.

SirLeeMinion

Yes

As a tank running less-demanding content, I generally make less effort to buff DPS and put more effort into doing DPS if I notice that I'm pulling more than 20% of the group damage.

Drdeath20

Yes

Just very situational.

A tank and a healer can buff decent dd’s by more than 15k DPS easily and the run goes swimmingly.

There are also dd’s that have such low dos that it’s better to just solo the dungeon.

Amottica

No

VaranisArano wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

If the DDs are so poor that the tank and healer have to take over DPS, then the DDs should be the ones leaving. Tanks and healers have no obligation to carry anyone

In my experience this never happened, if DDs are bad tank usually quits, then DDs queue and wait for replacement. I leave after tank.

Part of the reason it never happens is that the DDs know they'll be waiting for a long time to queue again.

Its a lot easier to quit and requeue as a support role. My healers maybe wait five minutes. On my tank, I get antsy if I'm waiting more than a minute.

I will note two things I saw last year when I was leveling up before I found the guild I am in. The first is I saw a tank trying to do damage. They were doing templar jabs on a boss. They were not skilled enough to notice the boss would just stand there doing nothing for a moment between attacks. Instead, the tank did jabs through the boss's attack. The point is many tanks would mess things up if they tried to do damage.

As for the healer, I often did more damage than both DDs when I was in the early CP and they were high CP. I was not trying to out damage them as I was tossing heals and orbs. So the healer can already do damage when they are not standing in red and with a pug group a decent healer will carry the group.

Granted, these are amongst the reasons I only queue with at least two guild mates.

o_Primate_o

No

No. When u buff damage, you are buffing 10 damage skills (5 per dd) or more, vs just a few of yours that are low damage tooltip anyways.

M0ntie

It depends on the trial/dungeon. Generally tanks only tank - and chain adds in and hold them in place. Although an experienced high dps player can hold taunt on the boss, and do a lot of dps in easy dungeons. Especially on PC with add ons to tell you when to dodge roll boss one shots.

In easy dungeons, for experienced players there just is not enough damage dealt by the enemies to keep a strong healer busy. So when I queue as a healer for a random normal, I usually equip a few heals/buffs and the rest dps skills. The general rule is that if the healer(s) are keeping every one healed and buffed, and can then add dps, they do so.

Re buffing by the healer. IN a dungeon there are only 2 dps. Consider if I'm applying buffs to increase damage by 10%, and compare that with the damage I can do myself.

Re "if dps aren't doing damage what is their role?" I doubt they are doing NO damage, most likely you mean low damage. I'm sure the dps aren't meaning to do low dps. They are probably learning and/or levelling. There is such a huge range of ways to play and people often don't know how ineffectively they are playing until they have improved.

RaikaNA

Yes

I voted yes because I do get tired of sitting there and block all the time without getting any form of DPS in.. Tanking is quite boring with the current settings.

AvalonRanger

No

Should tanks and healers do damage instead of buffing damage?

No, totally not.

But....it is rare case though, when I meet too much brainless 3 followers,
(can't provide any of damage and healing factor, and instant death many times)
I really want 10K damage buff as solo tank survivor.