People ignore the elephant in the room: LoS breaks

divnyi

Many ppl curse at tank meta. Not so many name the main reason of why it can be an effective strategy: when you fight a tank in open field without any boulders, big chances, he goes down in like 15s, unable to outheal DPS pressure and bursted down eventually.

LoS breaks allow to create a void in DPS pressure for like 2-3 seconds, it allows to align players for AoE ulti burst, it screws burst combos. LoS break allows to enter very confined spaces, where squishier opponents have clear disadvantage.

If we truly want to combat those tanky players, there should be an attempt to reduce the amount of LoS breaks.

1. LoS should not break when enemy is hiding behind visually translucent walls, like bars, log constructs. Those should not remove LoS, but only limit movement.
2. Arguably, weaker material like tents should also have above properties.
3. Target should not drop if enemy hides just behind the corner, and you are within 10m.
4. Ofc standing behind the wall or doors should be untargetable as it is now.

VaranisArano

Or just pick your battles.

If someone starts playing ring-around-the-rosey with the rocks and tree at Chalman mine, I don't chase after them. Same thing with the people who race around the inside of resource towers...and also ball groups running around the top floors of keeps.

There's no point in fighting players like that on the ground of their own choosing. That's how to end up part of the X in someone's 1vX video or get mashed by an organised group.

If you can kill these players in the open field, then make them come to you in the open field or ignore them until they do. Alternatively, don't chase. Players who want to be chased get real salty when someone sits back and drops siege AOEs on their position, because that blankets their usual LOS spots and makes it easier for chasing players to kill them. If they want to stop the siege, they have to come out in the open to do so.

"It's cheap when people use siege instead of fighting me!"

Yeah, well, not sorry.

Vevvev

Line of sight is indeed how most of these "tanks" stay alive for as long as they do. It is often ignored for whatever reason and finding a tank that can legitimately stand still and take a beating it actually quite rare. Typically we call such people out in chat in Cyrodiil since it does take an army to remove the pest poking at our keeps with siege. They can never score any kills of their own though, except against below 25k HP pugs of course.

The tanks that don't use LOS are recovery machines with tons of immovable potions, CP to buff the duration of the effect, and tons and tons of block cost reduction stacking. Their goal is simple... Stand still, get hit, don't get stunned as they know their counter is unblockable stuns hence all the immovable stuff.

Larcomar

I think there is an issue here. I wonder if it's to do with lag though. As far as I can tell, especially if you've got a bag ping, someone sort of jiggles around behind a tree/box/obstacle, it's virtually impossible to target them because your systems always playing ctach up with where they were 2 seconds ago.

Honestly, they should just get rid of all the little boxes, shrubs tents etc they've dotted round cyrodil. When I see someone playing ring around the mulberry bush I usually just tag them and let them go do their thing. It's not how I'd want to spend my time but hey.

Or, yeah, just meat bag them.

vms11934

As someone else said, you can generally just ignore these people (unless they are in your keep and you have to deal with ... annoying).

Some kind of collision detection would go a long way to helping this issue.

jaws343

VaranisArano wrote: »

Or just pick your battles.

If someone starts playing ring-around-the-rosey with the rocks and tree at Chalman mine, I don't chase after them. Same thing with the people who race around the inside of resource towers...and also ball groups running around the top floors of keeps.

There's no point in fighting players like that on the ground of their own choosing. That's how to end up part of the X in someone's 1vX video or get mashed by an organised group.

If you can kill these players in the open field, then make them come to you in the open field or ignore them until they do. Alternatively, don't chase. Players who want to be chased get real salty when someone sits back and drops siege AOEs on their position, because that blankets their usual LOS spots and makes it easier for chasing players to kill them. If they want to stop the siege, they have to come out in the open to do so.

"It's cheap when people use siege instead of fighting me!"

Yeah, well, not sorry.

One of my favorite fights in game was a 1v1 on my magsorc against a stam sorc. The stam sorc kept kiting around a tree and I could not do anything to them. I managed to bait them into the open by staying low health after they ult dumped me and blew them up within 3 seconds. It was crazy.

divnyi

Larcomar wrote: »

I think there is an issue here. I wonder if it's to do with lag though.

No, it has nothing to do with lag. Same thing occurs in BGs without any lag. It is currently intended behavior.

vms11934 wrote: »

As someone else said, you can generally just ignore these people

Can't ignore myself >_>

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you can kill these players in the open field, then make them come to you in the open field or ignore them until they do. Alternatively, don't chase.

Yeah, that is reasonable, but it makes those strategies effective. Players that are not chased and killed take objectives and kill a whole bucket of less experienced players.

DrSlaughtr

LOS around indestructible environments has always been a point of aggravation, especially when the kiters death is a forgone conclusion.

But I don't think that's the only issue right now causing high ttk. Players are standing out in the open absorbing massive massive damage then turning around and doing a crazy high burst.

Zekka

Larcomar wrote: »

I think there is an issue here. I wonder if it's to do with lag though. As far as I can tell, especially if you've got a bag ping, someone sort of jiggles around behind a tree/box/obstacle, it's virtually impossible to target them because your systems always playing ctach up with where they were 2 seconds ago.

It's not lag, it's a result of low tick rate. Actual competitive games like MOBAs and multiplayer FPSs have servers running at 60 to up to 128 ticks/second for some games like CS:GO, the most important informations like player position are updated at this rate server side so they're kept very accurate.
Hard to say what ESO servers tick rate is but it's most likely something much lower, which is normal for MMORPGs as you just can't have the same tick rate as CS:GO for something as massive as a MMO with thousands of entities (players and NPCs) and all the actions they perform for the servers to keep track of.

But it's the reason why LoS is so powerful in this game, positions are not refreshed fast enough server side for an action game so you have untargettable players as soon as they start running around pillars, tethers not breaking until you wait 1 or 2 good seconds with a solid obstacle between and executioners not going off, only getting "Target out of range" messages even though your target is right under your nose on your screen.

divnyi

@Zekka I think it also has to do with what points on the player's body is used in target detection. I presume it's one point in the middle of player's body vs one point in the middle of the player's body, and if some object covers this point - you don't get targeting.

I know that games like World of Tanks plant multiple dots on the tank for visibility detection check. I guess they can experiment with something like this.

fred4

I think LoS is legitimately used by tanky and non-tanky players alike. In some cases you may be labeling someone as a tank who is just very adept at it. Some of your suggestions are logical, such as questioning how much of an obstacles the bars of cages should be. On the other hand using LoS comes from your knowledge of the terrain. Who cares what it looks like, you just gradually build up the experience which places in IC and which places around keeps and outposts in Cyro offer the best LoS opportunities. In the extreme case I've seen sorcs lead players to specific rocks only accessible with Streak. If you curtail LoS, people will IMO simply retreat to the places where it still works. Sure, there are places where LoS seems disproportionately effective compared to what the terrain looks like. That's probably due to a lack of precision with the physics of the game. My fear would be that tightening that up would put even more strain on the servers, resulting in greater lag. The alternative would be to simplify the terrain, not something that seems appealing.

Gilvoth

OP is right, Line Of Sight needs removed.
it is abused, in my opinion.

xDeusEJRx

Line of sight can be a pretty strong tactic, but that's a slippery slope because maneuverability is apart of defensive play in the game. If you take it away, people will just use other tactics, like building tankier to sustain more damage than currently.

It's the same slippery slope as how plaguebreak worked with purges pre-nerf where wardens would burst themselves just from buffing with netch, if you start to nerf core game mechanics, it might seemingly make it easier but they will be shoehorned into another meta(i.e building tankier or stacking more mitigation to tank out more hits like resorting to ironblood).

In my opinion, instead of nerfing movement in such a way, promote counter play. Best way to screw a LoS is with CC's or siege. Sure giving them free CC immunity may suck but constant cc pressure makes it harder for them to even get the chance to LOS. That's why dark convergence was so effective pre-nerf. It was a double CC pull. Even if you didn't get affected by the damage the constant CC pressure screws with sustain and gives you unfavorable positioning. Same deal with siege weapons, siege limits their positioning by giving them less safe spots to stick to. People like to coin the term "CC bot" because spamming cc's is really effective, cause it screws your movement especially when you're back to back CC'd after your cooldown goes away.

IMO encourage more counterplay tactics to limit movement or just choose not to pick such fights.

divnyi

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Line of sight can be a pretty strong tactic, but that's a slippery slope because maneuverability is apart of defensive play in the game. If you take it away, people will just use other tactics, like building tankier to sustain more damage than currently.

It will never go out completely, because players should not be able to shoot through walls. So you would still be able to use the corners and terrain to your advantage.

I just mention LoS breaks that's basically running circles around the same small column or standing behind the bars of the jail in IC. Whenever you see like 40%+ of the player's body on the screen but can't attack it for some reason.

Larcomar

Zekka wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

I think there is an issue here. I wonder if it's to do with lag though. As far as I can tell, especially if you've got a bag ping, someone sort of jiggles around behind a tree/box/obstacle, it's virtually impossible to target them because your systems always playing ctach up with where they were 2 seconds ago.

It's not lag, it's a result of low tick rate. Actual competitive games like MOBAs and multiplayer FPSs have servers running at 60 to up to 128 ticks/second for some games like CS:GO, the most important informations like player position are updated at this rate server side so they're kept very accurate.
Hard to say what ESO servers tick rate is but it's most likely something much lower, which is normal for MMORPGs as you just can't have the same tick rate as CS:GO for something as massive as a MMO with thousands of entities (players and NPCs) and all the actions they perform for the servers to keep track of.

But it's the reason why LoS is so powerful in this game, positions are not refreshed fast enough server side for an action game so you have untargettable players as soon as they start running around pillars, tethers not breaking until you wait 1 or 2 good seconds with a solid obstacle between and executioners not going off, only getting "Target out of range" messages even though your target is right under your nose on your screen.

Thanks for this explanation; I often wondered why it's quite so difficult to target a player jiggling back and forth behind a tree/ box / shrub when you can see them clearly. That actually makes a lot of sense. Have an insightful

I just wish they'd up it in cyro. Between these guys, NBs and sorcs who streak off at the first sign of trouble, Cyro increasingly feels like a sort of... weird children's game. I quite enjoyed hide and seek, tag etc when I was a kid, but I kind just want to, you know, pvp...

I'm guessing from what you say that if they did so ESO played like a proper pvp game, it would sink performance? Or at least make it a lot worse. Question is how come those games can do it, but ESO can't. There aren't that many people in cyro now - caps is what 60-80 per side now? Fortnight's 100 I think.

Amottica

@VaranisArano makes a good point.

The uneven terrain and objects/architecture are part of a conscious design in Cyrodiil and BG arenas. In other words, Zenimax knew players would use them to their advantage. It is called tactics and if a player is using such legitimate tactics to make it difficult for others to kill them then that is also by design.

I also think it would not be beneficial to severe performance if Zenimax for the server determine if a shot hit the bars or passed between them.

fred4

I watched a YouTube video recently, which pointed out that Fortnite does have performance issues in the early game. However because it is a Battle Royale game, the number of players drops so rapidly at the start that, for most of a run, it's fine. I have never played Fortnite. Just something I heard that seemed plausible.

divnyi

Amottica wrote: »

I also think it would not be beneficial to severe performance if Zenimax for the server determine if a shot hit the bars or passed between them.

It has nothing to do with performance, it already determines if targeting works or not by checking what's between players.
It has to do with object states - adding state that object is translucent for targeting, and might be tricky to change all the instances everywhere, but it will not impact performance.

Larcomar

Amottica wrote: »

@VaranisArano makes a good point.

The uneven terrain and objects/architecture are part of a conscious design in Cyrodiil and BG arenas. In other words, Zenimax knew players would use them to their advantage. It is called tactics and if a player is using such legitimate tactics to make it difficult for others to kill them then that is also by design.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I just think it's got to the point that it feels pretty silly. [snip] I mean, they just put an "anti ball group" set in the game. Which - as a whole lot of players on pts predicted - is mainly getting exploited by ball groups....

Anway, we are we are. I think what Varanis was actually saying was pick your battles and don't chase after them. I wholeheartedly agree with that advice, tho people never listen. The issue I have is it applies to so many people in cyro now - tower farmers, ball groups, sorcs that streak off, losighters etc etc etc - it feels like that is the game now.

Oh well. At least I can sip a beer while I kick back and lob siege at them....

[edited for bashing]

Wyrd88

Gilvoth wrote: »

OP is right, Line Of Sight needs removed.
it is abused, in my opinion.

You want to zerg snipe people through rocks and tower walls? kekw

HiImRex

Weakening active defenses will push the game toward a more static numbers game.

“If enemy can deal X dps you need at least Y hps to survive.”

Active defenses give you a way to deal with super high dps without needing to straight up build into mitigation and healing power.

Consider that defensive actions are generally less cost efficient than offensive actions. [Things that break this balance (old HP regen mechanics, pre-nerf arctic wind, list goes on and on) always result in unfair unfun combat]. LOS is one of the only ways to make really efficient trades in unfavorable engagements, if used skillfully. And against good players LOS doesn’t do that much even if you play almost perfectly. Nerfing LOS would make engagements a lot more static than they are currently.

Balancing LOS should also be a matter of simple level design, not imposing needless complexity on the system. The lava map in BGs is a prime example of a map intentionally designed with minimal Los in mind and as a result it’s one of the least interesting maps to play in bg with ranged high damage comps having a big advantage.

Amottica

.

divnyi wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I also think it would not be beneficial to severe performance if Zenimax for the server determine if a shot hit the bars or passed between them.

It has nothing to do with performance, it already determines if targeting works or not by checking what's between players.
It has to do with object states - adding state that object is translucent for targeting, and might be tricky to change all the instances everywhere, but it will not impact performance.

Objects should not be Translucent. I would also suggest that none of us can truly say if it would affect server performance or not. We can only guess and our guesses tend to be influenced by our desires.

Brrrofski

[snip]

How is LOS what "tanky" players use. Everyone can use it, and SHOULD use it [snip], so what's the issue?

Look, your 12 man group doesn't have to zerg down every solo player. It's ok that they killed some of your group at the last keep, just let it go.

[edited for bashing]

SkaraMinoc

Wyrd88 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

OP is right, Line Of Sight needs removed.
it is abused, in my opinion.

You want to zerg snipe people through rocks and tower walls? kekw

You can shoot through the ground in certain parts of WoW's Alterac Valley 40v40 battleground.

It provides a very unfair advantage to the Horde.

Wyrd88

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Wyrd88 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

OP is right, Line Of Sight needs removed.
it is abused, in my opinion.

You want to zerg snipe people through rocks and tower walls? kekw

You can shoot through the ground in certain parts of WoW's Alterac Valley 40v40 battleground.

It provides a very unfair advantage to the Horde.

Never played WoW, so dunno.

But mage guards stunning you through the walls with frags or negating you while you being zerged at the back of the resourse tower is kinda ridiculous. Don't even want to imagine if players were able to do the same, lol.

divnyi

HiImRex wrote: »

Weakening active defenses will push the game toward a more static numbers game.

Active defenses is block and dodge and elusive and shields and kiting.

Duelists straight out ban LoS, for example, and they still have plenty of active defenses to use.

All active defenses cost something. LoS is abuse of game mechanics (specifically, targeting system), that's why it doesn't cost anything.

Brrrofski

divnyi wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

Weakening active defenses will push the game toward a more static numbers game.

Active defenses is block and dodge and elusive and shields and kiting.

Duelists straight out ban LoS, for example, and they still have plenty of active defenses to use.

All active defenses cost something. LoS is abuse of game mechanics (specifically, targeting system), that's why it doesn't cost anything.

It's frowned on in duels, because in THAT setting, it's seen as unsportsmanlike.

In open world, it's whatever. Especially when being zerged down.

And usually to get LOS effectively, you either invest in speed in your build or use a skill which provides it. So it does often cost something.

If someone is running around a tower and you don't want to chase them, then don't.

PuddingZebra

But i wonder... Why not use the Elephant in the room to LoS around? It makes for a great zerg kiting point!

MEBengalsFan2001

Jumping ruins LoS. When you hear combat music, if you jump it should cost just as much stamina as a dodge roll and should function like dodge rolling, meaning jumping a second, third, etc.. time right without waiting at least 3 seconds will cost more stamina. This would reduce the players jumping who are able to avoid LoS or use jumping as a way to get out of AoE skills instead of dodge rolling.

In addition to jumping ruining LoS, just going near a tree, corner of a building, etc... should not drop LoS, that is also stupid. I find players that are tower runner/tree huggers tend to have zero skill or lack proper sustain and when faced in open field they go down rather quickly.

baselesschart

I think there's a fine line in using LoS. I am totally fine with people using it when they are outnumbered because without it you wouldn't have dope 1vx gameplay clips. You drop a solo player into an open field with 3-4 people on them, they aren't going to do well, builds that aren't block tanks aren't designed to tank damage from 4 damage dealers at once without breaking LoS.

However using LoS in a 1v1 is kinda silly, no shame in taking your death like a man, much more honorable anyway.

HiImRex

divnyi wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

Weakening active defenses will push the game toward a more static numbers game.

Active defenses is block and dodge and elusive and shields and kiting.

Duelists straight out ban LoS, for example, and they still have plenty of active defenses to use.

All active defenses cost something. LoS is abuse of game mechanics (specifically, targeting system), that's why it doesn't cost anything.

Duels ban LoS because the combat is limited to 1 on 1, which makes the dps/hps/mitigation balancing a lot more manageable. But at the same time, you're proving my point because this is the reason why dueling gets boring very quickly. There's literally a DPS / HPS rock paper scissor that takes place outside of combat and you can straight up win/lose in duels before you press a single button. This is also why some mega-beast Stormhaven hero often gets farmed in BGs or zerg in Cyro. That MagDK in a dueling build that I can't beat in Stormhaven will never kill me in a BG because I will literally only fight him when I have the advantage--in fact, I will go out of my way to manipulate the battle so that I have the initiative. Of course, this also comes down to builds: building for a 1 on 1 with no LoS and very limited kiting (outside of Sorc / NB, you won't generally see effective kiting in dueling because of the limited play area and the implicit agreement not to use any LoS) literally means min-maxing your DPS/HPS/Mit and nothing else. Open world is entirely different, when you're building into things like speed (which is inefficient in duels) and enough sustain to survive against the odds.

LoS absolutely has a cost, but there is a good reason why LoS doesn't require an upfront resource investment. Block/dodge/mist/shields can all be done at any place at any time and is not depenedant on positioning. LoS can only be utilized where there are specific terrain elements.

If you pay attention, you will notice that ZOS understands for the most part how to build pvp maps to have both open and LoS areas, and that it is impossible for a player to remain safely within LoS areas at all times. The top tier players in pvp is really playing a positional game--not only positioning self but tempting enemies out of position and taking advantage of the timing where you are in the right position and your enemy is in the wrong position. This means you always know where the different LoS are, where the open areas are, where YOU are in relation to which LoS, how fast can you get there, how much resources you need remaining if you get sniped out of stealth to reach said LoS, etc.

The truth is, you do spend resources to utilize LoS, because most of the action is initiated outside of LoS. Thus, if you engage in a 1 on 1 and a snipeblade jumps in, there is absolutely a cost to trying to GET to LoS. In fact, you often need to use the other active defenses to buy time to even reach LoS.

Also, reaching LoS does not end the matter. LoS is relative to speed and positioning. You can absolutely predict enemy use of LoS to maintain your line of sight when it matters. If you're faster than the enemy player, your enemies can't effectively LoS you since you literally counterplay the LoS by holding "w".

In fact, all of ESO PvP is relative. You haven't automatically lost a potential kill because you lose LoS for a second, you can just trade a defensive CD for a defensive CD (or in other words, the moment you lose LoS, you can let them heal while you rebuff so that when you regain LoS, you've still got the GCD advantage of your opponent, leaving them in a disadvantageous situation).

There are other things at play as well. LoS by itself won't save you from pressure. You have to make proper use of the 1-2 seconds the LoS buys you to heal, rebuff, set up burst, etc. Whoever moves better and predicts the opponent's movement better can deny or gain LoS by the play.

The truth is, I can play perfectly with all my active defenses and still lose to a better player. LoS has opportunity costs, adds to the depth of combat via larger positioning considerations, has a skill ceiling and can be counter played, and removing it in the manner you proposed would make the game nonsensical. If you want ZOS to remove LoS, they just need to remove LoSable terrain elements from the pvp areas. That would, of course, kill this game's pvp 10x faster than it already is, but it would still be much more readable and sensible than imposing a complicated set of rules about what counts as LoS and partial-LoS.