Game needs alternate to LA rotation.

Succuby

There are a lot of people who dislikes LA rotation. For me it do not feel comfortable to, it fills silly gameplay.

People say about different thingth - combos, HA, bash and etc.

Why is not it possible to make all game style possible with out huge lose in DPS ?

A lot of people will not do it, a lot of people do but hates it. Why no alternate ? Why so much DPS difference ?

It was CP 1-0 before, now with CP 2-0 what smart people can do ? No build craft, no spell craft, no different builds you can use, no companion craft aviable - just to simple.

Can we get some alternates to current LA gameplay that is possible to get ?

With the all the same CP and Sets ?

With out it game is boring and only thing you can do is make good looking house.

Housing is cool but need some more functions like - moving objects. It can let to make really fun thingth. (With addon it do not works perfect it would be greate if such ingame function, but it is hard to make so even do not expect).

But why no spell crafting ? Why build craft is so pure ? Why so limited number of really good sets and what for was this averaging of sets ?

It was number of best sets before, now they are best in mana and stamina. Other sets are ... to worse in numbers. What is interest in it ?

Game was much more fun before tons of this rebalances.

Pls make game like it was before, to make it more interesting to play.

The game with only 1 good option is really bad concept !

MEBengalsFan2001

I think it will be removed in due time. First they need buff damage so that when they remove it the devs can state, we buffed your damage up so we could remove it.

neferpitou73

They won't. There was an outcry the last time they tried. Of course they've drive off a good few people lately so maybe they'll try it again to a different response.

I wouldn't mind them making alternative builds stronger, but if it's just a complaint about LA weaving being stupid or too hard that's def a l2p issue.

Amottica

There is an alternative and that is not doing a LA rotation and LA rotations are not a requirement. Do a medium rotation.

spartaxoxo

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

Succuby

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

Meta must be always the same or it have to change ?

If values was not changed to much people even would not really care.

thorwyn

Always the same. It is an old ZOS rule... they NEVER change the meta. Never.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

Succuby

But they take away DK wings - i get it

Magio_

I bet that the people that complain about LA Weaving and believe it's the greatest DPS maker probably don't even have a good skill rotation down. I wish I could know how much these people that hate LA weaving are able to parse by just doing their skill rotation and only Light Attacking every time the Ultimate generation runs out, even if using it as if it shared the same GCD as their skills. I bet the majority are abysmally low and LA Weaving is just a scapegoat.

P.S. Nothing wrong with parsing low, but blaming the system and trying to change it will do nothing to help them improve their gameplay.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think it will be removed in due time. First they need buff damage so that when they remove it the devs can state, we buffed your damage up so we could remove it.

Nope, it's been part of the game for 7 years and it won't change. Rich Lambert already mentioned it in one of his streams. Something about not liking saying "I would never", but LA weaving being removed being one of the few things.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

Aardappelboom

I don't mind La weaving, I like the flow of connecting skills and light attacks to have nice feeling combo's.

The animations though, they're really clunky, if it wasn't called "animation cancelling" and the weapon would connect with the skill animation, it probably wouldn't bother anyone.

joseayalac

They could make LAs hit softer, if so, LA weaving would only increase your DPS marginally and would be a requirement only for the top damage dealers.

But I think this would be an implementation in a bad direction, because for casual play, having a weapon that does close to no damage when it hits, would feel very lame.

So my point is that the current system works well for RPers and casual gameplay. If you want to increase your DPS for vet content, you have to press a lot of buttons very fast and in a correct sequence, there's no way around it.

Eiregirl

I just want it clear that I am not for or against any style of play. I play several different ways with the different characters I have and I enjoy them all. There are different ways people can setup their characters to play ESO and still be competitive and have fun playing the game. Sure I would like to see a closing of the gap between pure HA rotations and LA rotations.

With everything below being said the most important thing to learn to do dungeons and trials are the mechanics of the fights.

The LA animation canceling started out as a bug and has since become a part of the game everyone just needs to accept that because it is not going away. From the seven years I have played the game I have never seen any attempt by the devs to “really and truly” attempt to balance any other style of play against one that uses LA weave. That is a shame in my opinion.

There are people who have come up with good builds and rotations that do ~90K + damage on a target dummy that they call a HA build but they are not really HA builds. They are LA+HA builds, hybrids is you will. From the ones I have seen most of these are really LA builds using more HA’s to restore resources than other LA builds. This is true with my own characters that use this type of build.

I have a few characters that use a pure AOE HA rotation with no light attacks. These characters I use for overland, dungeons and normal trials and a few vet trials once in a while and they do 50K – 60K on single target Iron atro dummy. Which is not bad for a pure AOE HA rotation. The more targets that get into my AOE the higher the damage. When you have several targets in your multiple AOE’s there are few if any single target setups that will match your damage output. You can take this type of setup and remove some AOE skills and put in some single targets skills and you can push ~75K on a single target Iron atro from my experience with no light attacks.

With my characters that are setup for SA (single target) LA rotations I can push 100K and for a while that was fun doing parses and getting those numbers higher and higher while smoothing out the rotations but I don’t do a lot of trials anymore and I have more fun on my AOE HA characters now. On a single target there is no other type of setup that can beat one that is specifically designed for a single target. Some may come close (the LA+HA hybrid) but none will beat the characters that are specifically designed for a single target using a LA rotation. Most YouTubers will use this type of setup to get the high numbers to promote their build or showoff their high dps on a static target that does not fight back.

I would also like to see better setups that use NO light attacks or heavy attacks just pure skills only that are competitive at higher levels of play…that would be awesome.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

A player that has learned to play the game well enough so they can pay attention to what is happening around them and has played the content enough so they know how to handle the mechanics will have the damage. They may not have the top damage which leads to experiencing some mechanics or going through more cycles of mechanics than a top raid group but that is life in an MMORPG. The players who have chosen to spend the time learning how to play the game better kill stuff faster. Heck, the mechanics you speak of are far less punishing than an enrage timer found in many MMORPGs that kills everyone in a matter of seconds.

This has little to do with the LA focus but the choice to invest in learning to play the game better. It is why I ran with the best players in previous MMORPGs and we could clear the hardest content in the game such as nightmare and mythic raids. It is also why I no longer run with the top players in MMORPGs because I have chosen to play a more laid-back game. it is a choice that each player makes.

Ascarl

Anything that busts this current LA meta will fix the game for me.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

A player that has learned to play the game well enough so they can pay attention to what is happening around them and has played the content enough so they know how to handle the mechanics will have the damage

No. They will won't necessarily. I have cleared plenty of content literally by just swapping a set for more damage for myself or in the case of a trial my team, and with literally NO change in gameplay, cleared it. Literally none. Because the mechanics were understood.

LA rotation is NOT intuitive. You do not learn from gameplay and much of the harder content punishes you for not knowing it. Stuff like the first boss in VKA, who's lightning attacks grow stronger the longer that fight takes. In that case, it isn't just more opportunity to fail. It is that the fight actively gets harder by ramping up the mechanics of the actual fight.

Top end damage does not just make it faster by having less opportunity to fail, often times they skip mechanics entirely or have weaker versions of the same mechanics.

There should be more than one viable build style. That's basic to most video games and there is zero reason it should be different to this one.

It is good enough that high damage is likely going to end up you on leaderboards and achievements, it should NOT make such a difference in basic completion for any content. The gap is extremely unhealthy for the game. The endgame scene is dying because of it. It's not reasonable.

The reason that they have been spent what, 2 years now, trying to raise the floor is because the gaps aren't healthy to the sustainability of the population. But they haven't fixed it because they have solved it all wrong. The problem isn't the players on the floor who don't even want to do harder content and are completely satisfied with their current power levels. The gap problem is between the middle and the top, where people try to improve, are reasonably decent at mechanics at particular content, but have a massive hurdle to overcome learning completely unintuitive gameplay outside of playing the game. Some give up dps entirely and go other classes. Some quit the game in frustration. And some just do the same content over and over, before eventually becoming the kinds of users they keep seeing that just do a little bit of each dlc and then ditch the game until the next content comes out. Only a too small percentage goes onto learn it and participate in the endgame content.

LeonAkando

Magio_ wrote: »

I bet that the people that complain about LA Weaving and believe it's the greatest DPS maker probably don't even have a good skill rotation down. I wish I could know how much these people that hate LA weaving are able to parse by just doing their skill rotation and only Light Attacking every time the Ultimate generation runs out, even if using it as if it shared the same GCD as their skills. I bet the majority are abysmally low and LA Weaving is just a scapegoat.

I wouldn't say LA weaving is the "great DPS maker" but I certainly have grown to dislike it.
The highest dummy parse I have this patch is 107k on Magsorc, I don't believe it's an L2P issue for me rather I just don't feel like animation cancelling every half second is particularly interesting or fun gameplay.

I would much rather have more complicated and interesting ability rotations over making my character glitch-twitch constantly to push damage.
As it currently stands, it feels like most DD builds feel identical, you lay down dots, and then glitch-twitch spammables until you need to refresh them. There are small variants, but overall it's just not very satisfying. But that goes beyond LA meta.

People have grown too attached to this, I think, because they are afraid if ZOS finally fixes the LA issue, they will lose a lot of their damage as well as "the game will be favoring causals" or something.
But if ZOS fixed the bug, then they can simply add power into abilities, and some ability reworks may lend to more interesting rotations.

Yes that change would probably bring up the skill floor, but ultimately, the most skilled players will always do the most damage, even without animation cancelling.

tmbrinks

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

What content isn't able to be accomplished without LA weaving?

Godslayer? Planesbreaker?

I think that's probably about it.

Gilvoth

Succuby wrote: »

There are a lot of people who dislikes LA rotation. For me it do not feel comfortable to, it fills silly gameplay.

People say about different thingth - combos, HA, bash and etc.

Why is not it possible to make all game style possible with out huge lose in DPS ?

A lot of people will not do it, a lot of people do but hates it. Why no alternate ? Why so much DPS difference ?

It was CP 1-0 before, now with CP 2-0 what smart people can do ? No build craft, no spell craft, no different builds you can use, no companion craft aviable - just to simple.

Can we get some alternates to current LA gameplay that is possible to get ?

With the all the same CP and Sets ?

With out it game is boring and only thing you can do is make good looking house.

Housing is cool but need some more functions like - moving objects. It can let to make really fun thingth. (With addon it do not works perfect it would be greate if such ingame function, but it is hard to make so even do not expect).

But why no spell crafting ? Why build craft is so pure ? Why so limited number of really good sets and what for was this averaging of sets ?

It was number of best sets before, now they are best in mana and stamina. Other sets are ... to worse in numbers. What is interest in it ?

Game was much more fun before tons of this rebalances.

Pls make game like it was before, to make it more interesting to play.

The game with only 1 good option is really bad concept !

i myself, my guild members, and my friends in eso agree that animation canceling and light attack weaving is Very stupid.
you are not alone.
no game of any kind should be game glitch dependent. and here in eso, light attack weaving and animation canceling is a game Glitch.

tmbrinks

joseayalac wrote: »

They could make LAs hit softer, if so, LA weaving would only increase your DPS marginally and would be a requirement only for the top damage dealers.

But I think this would be an implementation in a bad direction, because for casual play, having a weapon that does close to no damage when it hits, would feel very lame.

So my point is that the current system works well for RPers and casual gameplay. If you want to increase your DPS for vet content, you have to press a lot of buttons very fast and in a correct sequence, there's no way around it.

the problem is that most people actually press too many buttons.

a LA/skill rotation is 2 button clicks a second (can add more if bash weaving as well, but that is a truly marginal increase).

2 times a second is the same as your footfalls at a nice walking pace. Not fast at all.

lolo_01b16_ESO

tmbrinks wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

What content isn't able to be accomplished without LA weaving?

Godslayer? Planesbreaker?

I think that's probably about it.

Godslayer is possible without light attacks. I just checked an older godslayer run from my guild. Back then the dps was so much lower than today. Nowerdays even without light attack weaving you can still get higher dps than our dds had back then.

tmbrinks

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

What content isn't able to be accomplished without LA weaving?

Godslayer? Planesbreaker?

I think that's probably about it.

Godslayer is possible without light attacks. I just checked an older godslayer run from my guild. Back then the dps was so much lower than today. Nowerdays even without light attack weaving you can still get higher dps than our dds had back then.

So I guess people are asking that we should completely re-do the combat in the game, even though everything outside of the hardest trifecta achievement (something in the game for the elite, elite, best-of-the-best competitive players to work towards) is achievable without LA weaving.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

neferpitou73 wrote: »

They won't. There was an outcry the last time they tried.

They should try again. I'll loudly voice my opinion in support of removing LA weaving.

It's easily the worst "feature" of ESO combat.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

A player that has learned to play the game well enough so they can pay attention to what is happening around them and has played the content enough so they know how to handle the mechanics will have the damage

No. They will won't necessarily. I have cleared plenty of content literally by just swapping a set for more damage for myself or in the case of a trial my team, and with literally NO change in gameplay, cleared it. Literally none. Because the mechanics were understood.

LA rotation is NOT intuitive. You do not learn from gameplay and much of the harder content punishes you for not knowing it. Stuff like the first boss in VKA, who's lightning attacks grow stronger the longer that fight takes. In that case, it isn't just more opportunity to fail. It is that the fight actively gets harder by ramping up the mechanics of the actual fight.

Top end damage does not just make it faster by having less opportunity to fail, often times they skip mechanics entirely or have weaker versions of the same mechanics.

There should be more than one viable build style. That's basic to most video games and there is zero reason it should be different to this one.

It is good enough that high damage is likely going to end up you on leaderboards and achievements, it should NOT make such a difference in basic completion for any content. The gap is extremely unhealthy for the game. The endgame scene is dying because of it. It's not reasonable.

The reason that they have been spent what, 2 years now, trying to raise the floor is because the gaps aren't healthy to the sustainability of the population. But they haven't fixed it because they have solved it all wrong. The problem isn't the players on the floor who don't even want to do harder content and are completely satisfied with their current power levels. The gap problem is between the middle and the top, where people try to improve, are reasonably decent at mechanics at particular content, but have a massive hurdle to overcome learning completely unintuitive gameplay outside of playing the game. Some give up dps entirely and go other classes. Some quit the game in frustration. And some just do the same content over and over, before eventually becoming the kinds of users they keep seeing that just do a little bit of each dlc and then ditch the game until the next content comes out. Only a too small percentage goes onto learn it and participate in the endgame content.

I agree that not everyone will learn to play the game well enough and those that do not put the time in will clearly not be able to adjust to changes in the game well. This is what separates the great players from the good players from the not-so-good players. The massive hurdle mentioned, while different in ESO, is there in other games. It is why such a small percentage of player clear the most challenging raids on the most challenging difficulty in major MMORPGs.

Those that put the time in to be a great player, even a good player, do reap rewards in experiencing shorter fights which in turn means fewer rotations of mechanics and get to avoid the roughest of mechanics such as enrage timers that will wipe the entire group. It is this way in every combat-based MMORPG and will continue to be as it makes sense. It is the same reason why MMORPGs make different difficulty levels. Those that can do HM. Those that do not want to put in that effort have a vet or even normal mode.

Heck, even if Zenimax removed the LA weaving the same group of top players will still be the top players and those that struggle to do good damage will still struggle to do good damage.

LAs are not the reason.

Reif

Medium weaving meta was so much better. At the very least it didn’t look like clicker heroes...

Eiregirl

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

A player that has learned to play the game well enough so they can pay attention to what is happening around them and has played the content enough so they know how to handle the mechanics will have the damage

No. They will won't necessarily. I have cleared plenty of content literally by just swapping a set for more damage for myself or in the case of a trial my team, and with literally NO change in gameplay, cleared it. Literally none. Because the mechanics were understood.

LA rotation is NOT intuitive. You do not learn from gameplay and much of the harder content punishes you for not knowing it. Stuff like the first boss in VKA, who's lightning attacks grow stronger the longer that fight takes. In that case, it isn't just more opportunity to fail. It is that the fight actively gets harder by ramping up the mechanics of the actual fight.

Top end damage does not just make it faster by having less opportunity to fail, often times they skip mechanics entirely or have weaker versions of the same mechanics.

There should be more than one viable build style. That's basic to most video games and there is zero reason it should be different to this one.

It is good enough that high damage is likely going to end up you on leaderboards and achievements, it should NOT make such a difference in basic completion for any content. The gap is extremely unhealthy for the game. The endgame scene is dying because of it. It's not reasonable.

The reason that they have been spent what, 2 years now, trying to raise the floor is because the gaps aren't healthy to the sustainability of the population. But they haven't fixed it because they have solved it all wrong. The problem isn't the players on the floor who don't even want to do harder content and are completely satisfied with their current power levels. The gap problem is between the middle and the top, where people try to improve, are reasonably decent at mechanics at particular content, but have a massive hurdle to overcome learning completely unintuitive gameplay outside of playing the game. Some give up dps entirely and go other classes. Some quit the game in frustration. And some just do the same content over and over, before eventually becoming the kinds of users they keep seeing that just do a little bit of each dlc and then ditch the game until the next content comes out. Only a too small percentage goes onto learn it and participate in the endgame content.

I agree that not everyone will learn to play the game well enough and those that do not put the time in will clearly not be able to adjust to changes in the game well. This is what separates the great players from the good players from the not-so-good players. The massive hurdle mentioned, while different in ESO, is there in other games. It is why such a small percentage of player clear the most challenging raids on the most challenging difficulty in major MMORPGs.

Those that put the time in to be a great player, even a good player, do reap rewards in experiencing shorter fights which in turn means fewer rotations of mechanics and get to avoid the roughest of mechanics such as enrage timers that will wipe the entire group. It is this way in every combat-based MMORPG and will continue to be as it makes sense. It is the same reason why MMORPGs make different difficulty levels. Those that can do HM. Those that do not want to put in that effort have a vet or even normal mode.

Heck, even if Zenimax removed the LA weaving the same group of top players will still be the top players and those that struggle to do good damage will still struggle to do good damage.

LAs are not the reason.

Amottica, I agree with what you have said so just to be asking the questions.
If weaving LAs are not the reason then why not get rid of them?
Why do so many people argue so forcefully and sometimes become outright mean to people discussing improving styles other than weaving LAs for dealing damage?
Why do so many people advocate to get rid of LA weaving or to improve other methods of dealing damage?

I personally do not advocate for getting rid of an old bug that has become part of the game and a play style that many people depend upon but I do try to inform people that there are other ways to be good at the game maybe not leaderboard good but still good enough to complete any content...if they can follow mechanics...if they can't that is a totally different set of problems.

Amottica

Eiregirl wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree. It should be the meta, but more content should be more realistic to do without it for more groups of people, outside of just knowing the right people or having the right schedule.

The issue for groups not being able to clear content is not because they do not know how to do a LA weave. Inexperienced players, especially groups of them, are not going to be able to clear some content solely due to how well they play regardless of LA weave or not.

It is very often that people do know how to do the content but the damage isn't there so it doesn't succeed. There are many mechanics in this game that punish you for having lower damage.

A player that has learned to play the game well enough so they can pay attention to what is happening around them and has played the content enough so they know how to handle the mechanics will have the damage

No. They will won't necessarily. I have cleared plenty of content literally by just swapping a set for more damage for myself or in the case of a trial my team, and with literally NO change in gameplay, cleared it. Literally none. Because the mechanics were understood.

LA rotation is NOT intuitive. You do not learn from gameplay and much of the harder content punishes you for not knowing it. Stuff like the first boss in VKA, who's lightning attacks grow stronger the longer that fight takes. In that case, it isn't just more opportunity to fail. It is that the fight actively gets harder by ramping up the mechanics of the actual fight.

Top end damage does not just make it faster by having less opportunity to fail, often times they skip mechanics entirely or have weaker versions of the same mechanics.

There should be more than one viable build style. That's basic to most video games and there is zero reason it should be different to this one.

It is good enough that high damage is likely going to end up you on leaderboards and achievements, it should NOT make such a difference in basic completion for any content. The gap is extremely unhealthy for the game. The endgame scene is dying because of it. It's not reasonable.

The reason that they have been spent what, 2 years now, trying to raise the floor is because the gaps aren't healthy to the sustainability of the population. But they haven't fixed it because they have solved it all wrong. The problem isn't the players on the floor who don't even want to do harder content and are completely satisfied with their current power levels. The gap problem is between the middle and the top, where people try to improve, are reasonably decent at mechanics at particular content, but have a massive hurdle to overcome learning completely unintuitive gameplay outside of playing the game. Some give up dps entirely and go other classes. Some quit the game in frustration. And some just do the same content over and over, before eventually becoming the kinds of users they keep seeing that just do a little bit of each dlc and then ditch the game until the next content comes out. Only a too small percentage goes onto learn it and participate in the endgame content.

I agree that not everyone will learn to play the game well enough and those that do not put the time in will clearly not be able to adjust to changes in the game well. This is what separates the great players from the good players from the not-so-good players. The massive hurdle mentioned, while different in ESO, is there in other games. It is why such a small percentage of player clear the most challenging raids on the most challenging difficulty in major MMORPGs.

Those that put the time in to be a great player, even a good player, do reap rewards in experiencing shorter fights which in turn means fewer rotations of mechanics and get to avoid the roughest of mechanics such as enrage timers that will wipe the entire group. It is this way in every combat-based MMORPG and will continue to be as it makes sense. It is the same reason why MMORPGs make different difficulty levels. Those that can do HM. Those that do not want to put in that effort have a vet or even normal mode.

Heck, even if Zenimax removed the LA weaving the same group of top players will still be the top players and those that struggle to do good damage will still struggle to do good damage.

LAs are not the reason.

Amottica, I agree with what you have said so just to be asking the questions.
If weaving LAs are not the reason then why not get rid of them?
Why do so many people argue so forcefully and sometimes become outright mean to people discussing improving styles other than weaving LAs for dealing damage?
Why do so many people advocate to get rid of LA weaving or to improve other methods of dealing damage?

I personally do not advocate for getting rid of an old bug that has become part of the game and a play style that many people depend upon but I do try to inform people that there are other ways to be good at the game maybe not leaderboard good but still good enough to complete any content...if they can follow mechanics...if they can't that is a totally different set of problems.

Last year Zenimax tested in a special and focused PTS a major rework to the basic attacks that, in part, would have removed the emphasis on light attacks for doing damage. The longer the channel the more damage would be done and resource return would be moved to the light attack. This was an attempt to gain our feedback on some experimental changes earlier in the process than the normal PTS cycle.

Brian noted they received a lot of feedback both in-game and via the forums and in the end chose to not move forward with those changes. He also noted that the feedback varied based on role and differed between PvP and PvE. In the end, based on the feedback they received they chose to abandon this particular idea.

He did note that they would continue to "investigate ways to improve on light and heavy attacks to ensure they provide impactful moments, where it’s an important choice to pick and choose your attacks." Of course that also means that weaving basic attacks would still be part of the game as it has been in any idea they consider. That part is a given and Zenimax commented on that years ago.

I do not care either way if I am weaving LAs or medium attacks into my skills. I am not advocating that Zenimax should not change the emphasis. I am merely noting that a player can learn to play the game well, choose to not do LAs, and still do better damage than most. The skills we use to do damage, as a whole, is the largest source of the damage we do.

katanagirl1

tmbrinks wrote: »

joseayalac wrote: »

They could make LAs hit softer, if so, LA weaving would only increase your DPS marginally and would be a requirement only for the top damage dealers.

But I think this would be an implementation in a bad direction, because for casual play, having a weapon that does close to no damage when it hits, would feel very lame.

So my point is that the current system works well for RPers and casual gameplay. If you want to increase your DPS for vet content, you have to press a lot of buttons very fast and in a correct sequence, there's no way around it.

the problem is that most people actually press too many buttons.

a LA/skill rotation is 2 button clicks a second (can add more if bash weaving as well, but that is a truly marginal increase).

2 times a second is the same as your footfalls at a nice walking pace. Not fast at all.

It is apparently too fast for me, but I’m old and have a bad wrist.

BretonMage

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is good enough that high damage is likely going to end up you on leaderboards and achievements, it should NOT make such a difference in basic completion for any content. The gap is extremely unhealthy for the game. The endgame scene is dying because of it. It's not reasonable.

The reason that they have been spent what, 2 years now, trying to raise the floor is because the gaps aren't healthy to the sustainability of the population. But they haven't fixed it because they have solved it all wrong. The problem isn't the players on the floor who don't even want to do harder content and are completely satisfied with their current power levels. The gap problem is between the middle and the top, where people try to improve, are reasonably decent at mechanics at particular content, but have a massive hurdle to overcome learning completely unintuitive gameplay outside of playing the game. Some give up dps entirely and go other classes. Some quit the game in frustration. And some just do the same content over and over, before eventually becoming the kinds of users they keep seeing that just do a little bit of each dlc and then ditch the game until the next content comes out. Only a too small percentage goes onto learn it and participate in the endgame content.

I totally agree. I feel relieved that someone understands my own personal, lived experience. I do make an effort to learn the game: I research; I try to understand the game, and think critically about why this gear/skill is needed and not that; I read up on mechanics; I bought a training dummy to practise on; I experiment... But it's not enough. I'm still fairly mediocre, and it led me to leave in frustration 2 years ago (but I'm back, because... companions!).

tmbrinks wrote: »

the problem is that most people actually press too many buttons.

a LA/skill rotation is 2 button clicks a second (can add more if bash weaving as well, but that is a truly marginal increase).

2 times a second is the same as your footfalls at a nice walking pace. Not fast at all.

I tried that but it only made my DPS worse. I had better success with button mashing tbh. I can almost manage alternating LA with one skill, but when you throw other skills in, each with their different timers, and ones that proc only 30% of the time, it becomes an absolute pig's breakfast of a rotation, if you can even call it that.

Succuby

It is simple to solve the problem:

As example add craft set do not know the name first i think is Lotos:
Spd /wpd
Spd/Wpd
Crit
Add 15-20 % damage to monsters, your LA and MA do 1 damage per hit.

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Now when players can effectivly use ice Staff as dd - why not to give sword and shield players do rotation like - skill + bash ?

Make its bash damage more like LA do, shields can not effectivly damage now - lower stats and 1 handed weapon gives it limits, give tanks ability to do dps, now with proc sets changes tank players lose a lot if damage, sets strike 2-3 times less ! Where is fun to play tank even in open world ?

Proc must not work from max stats it have to have standart values, no crit just number like before to make all players use it effectivly, or give some minimum values and scale only in some interval. Tanks have 2 k- spd / wpd - sets hits 3-4 times less !

Where is fun ? Where is play like you want.

I liked damage mobs in that sets on tank before, now i am pretty limited with choise.

Build craft was killed even more with it.

And a lot of tanks wants to do their oassive DPS they do before.

It was some sets with overpowered numbers, it have to be fixed, but why all even weak sets was reworked ?

How tank can use it now. All we can do bash. And if i want play with sword and board - and not swap archer each tine what choise i have ? Nothing at all. Only bash is possible now