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Update 32 Drastically Affects PvE DD Build Guides
Update 32 made many significant improvements to the game that I believe will change the game for the better, but there is one improvement that deeply concerns me due to the way the community handles build guides.
Currently, what our community has come to understand as "PvE" has always treated trial and dungeon content as interchangeable as far as build guides are concerned. Trial-focused builds have been the go-to option for DPS builds for years due to what many people have considered a negligible difference between what you should run in a trial vs. in a dungeon. But that has changed now, and people need to be aware of this.
Update 32 has capped critical damage at 125%.
It is important to understand that this change only has big implications in trial groups who are optimized to push your crit damage. It is incredibly difficult to hit the 125% cap when you are not in a trial group. So in every inch of PvE content, excluding trials, it is important to understand this:
Critical Damage remains unchanged as far as dungeon content is concerned.
People are silently boycotting Mother's Sorrow, the Wading Harpooner's Kilt, and even the entire Nightblade class in some cases, with reckless abandon because they believe those no longer have any value in the current meta.
What we have come to understand as "PvE" is no longer a satisfactory way to define a build, because we are now seeing a diverging path that separates the information we readily have access to from the information we do not readily have access to. Every single new player and many ignorant veteran players will from this point forward begin suffering in their damage output by following guides that our helpful community has made available to the public.
To be clear, I have done no testing and have no data to advocate this point, but we need to understand that this is a significant change that will affect less learned people in our community the most. I don't know if those new trial builds out there hit as hard as the crit builds we've run for years or not, but this change will move our understanding of PvE into a place where trials and dungeons cannot by synonymous anymore.
Our crit builds still hit as hard today as they did in the last version of the game. The only thing that changed in this patch to affect those builds is that they are no longer the best option in a trial. The drastic changes that have been made to the builds we have access to on the internet now effectively exist in the realm of misinformation due to the lack of context.
The methodology that our community uses to evaluate and improve damage output to the public needs to change. People who do not understand or do not know about the intricate details of the game's inner workings will be misled by build guides and tutorials that content creators and other build theorists put out for them to access if we continue to let trials and dungeons be treated synonymously.
I do not want this change to be reversed. This is an effective change to limit power creep, and I fully support the cap on our crit damage. But our community must adapt to this change by dividing the concept of PvE into trial and non-trial PvE. Build guides need to start focusing on dungeon content as a category of its own separate from trial content.
If we do nothing about this, every single dungeon in the game will become nightmarish in comparison to what we've experienced before if we go in with misinformed players on the dungeon queue who believe their trial gear is their best option. We lost damage before in dungeon content when penetration became the "negligible stat" that we've ignored in DD builds. Everyone will suffer greatly in dungeon content with randoms if we irresponsibly allow crit damage to become a "negligible stat." because the truth is that crit damage is still one of the most powerful stats in PvE, despite the situational change that requires trials to shed it.
Everyone needs to begin testing builds for dungeons separately from trials. We need to start parsing on dungeon dummies instead of trial dummies to avoid the crit cap. We need to start testing sets that trial groups will now ignore due to the cap. We need to set a standard in dungeon focused guilds where trial dummy parses are no longer an acceptible measure. And our content creators / build theorists need to adapt to this change to prevent a situation where every new player and ignorant vet is sacrificing the wrong stats because they blindly trust the builds they found on the internet.
We must foster an understanding among the entire player base where trials and dungeons are entirely separate, because this change means the difference between them will no longer be negligible.
Currently, what our community has come to understand as "PvE" has always treated trial and dungeon content as interchangeable as far as build guides are concerned. Trial-focused builds have been the go-to option for DPS builds for years due to what many people have considered a negligible difference between what you should run in a trial vs. in a dungeon. But that has changed now, and people need to be aware of this.
Update 32 has capped critical damage at 125%.
It is important to understand that this change only has big implications in trial groups who are optimized to push your crit damage. It is incredibly difficult to hit the 125% cap when you are not in a trial group. So in every inch of PvE content, excluding trials, it is important to understand this:
Critical Damage remains unchanged as far as dungeon content is concerned.
People are silently boycotting Mother's Sorrow, the Wading Harpooner's Kilt, and even the entire Nightblade class in some cases, with reckless abandon because they believe those no longer have any value in the current meta.
What we have come to understand as "PvE" is no longer a satisfactory way to define a build, because we are now seeing a diverging path that separates the information we readily have access to from the information we do not readily have access to. Every single new player and many ignorant veteran players will from this point forward begin suffering in their damage output by following guides that our helpful community has made available to the public.
To be clear, I have done no testing and have no data to advocate this point, but we need to understand that this is a significant change that will affect less learned people in our community the most. I don't know if those new trial builds out there hit as hard as the crit builds we've run for years or not, but this change will move our understanding of PvE into a place where trials and dungeons cannot by synonymous anymore.
Our crit builds still hit as hard today as they did in the last version of the game. The only thing that changed in this patch to affect those builds is that they are no longer the best option in a trial. The drastic changes that have been made to the builds we have access to on the internet now effectively exist in the realm of misinformation due to the lack of context.
The methodology that our community uses to evaluate and improve damage output to the public needs to change. People who do not understand or do not know about the intricate details of the game's inner workings will be misled by build guides and tutorials that content creators and other build theorists put out for them to access if we continue to let trials and dungeons be treated synonymously.
I do not want this change to be reversed. This is an effective change to limit power creep, and I fully support the cap on our crit damage. But our community must adapt to this change by dividing the concept of PvE into trial and non-trial PvE. Build guides need to start focusing on dungeon content as a category of its own separate from trial content.
If we do nothing about this, every single dungeon in the game will become nightmarish in comparison to what we've experienced before if we go in with misinformed players on the dungeon queue who believe their trial gear is their best option. We lost damage before in dungeon content when penetration became the "negligible stat" that we've ignored in DD builds. Everyone will suffer greatly in dungeon content with randoms if we irresponsibly allow crit damage to become a "negligible stat." because the truth is that crit damage is still one of the most powerful stats in PvE, despite the situational change that requires trials to shed it.
Everyone needs to begin testing builds for dungeons separately from trials. We need to start parsing on dungeon dummies instead of trial dummies to avoid the crit cap. We need to start testing sets that trial groups will now ignore due to the cap. We need to set a standard in dungeon focused guilds where trial dummy parses are no longer an acceptible measure. And our content creators / build theorists need to adapt to this change to prevent a situation where every new player and ignorant vet is sacrificing the wrong stats because they blindly trust the builds they found on the internet.
We must foster an understanding among the entire player base where trials and dungeons are entirely separate, because this change means the difference between them will no longer be negligible.
7
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Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Imagine being gated from a trial because you only hit 96K on your Khajiit magblade. That’s where some trial groups are today. That’s the game now. Big boy DPS and skipping mechs.
Honestly it’s clever if you ask me. People put so much focus on hitting big numbers that they lose focus of mechs and it ends up causing a lightning fast domino effect when you get close to the end of a HM complete. It’s a thin line whether you can push or not and few people can walk it. People who run 4 man content know that already though. Big DPS is the trap that trial focused players fall into.
Crit cap basically shifted the meta, that’s it. Damage only went down if you were a Khajiit. Flat damage will get nerfed next. 10% boosts on Kinras will either get a cooldown or get reduced once they realize everyone runs it for content. Bahsei is due for an adjustment as well and will likely get either a longer ramp up or a lower top end number to “align it with similar sets.”
There is less variety right now I find than what was in the last patch. I could literally put on any combination of the top 7-8 damage sets and come within 3-4K of BiS gear. Now BiS gear is 4-5K ahead of the next option.
There are too many sources of crit damage in the game for sure but that’s of the devs own making adding all the extra sources. Oddly flat damage sets during the crit meta also performed well. I was hitting 100+ in combinations like Bahsei and Deadly on stam toons. Or stacking both Siroria and Bahsei together on mag toons. You didn’t have to build for crit before this patch, now you can only build so much.
I’m more concerned about medium armor, axes and Khajiit passives which are now useless. Bring back bleed damage and crit chance which were taken away from us before. That would make some other sets viable again.5 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Don't confuse dummy meta with trial meta.
There are plenty of sets which are still performing very well and it's not so simple for most people to maintain high kinra uptimes when they are running it front bar only. tzogvin is much easier to maintain than kinra because as long as you've got some damage ticking and you're on the front bar it'll maintain itself, but if you've just refreshed your backbar and now you need to block some mechanics like meteors then kiss that major berserk good bye.
I reckon half the people I knew running bahsei last patch are moving on to other sets. Definitely seeing more than a few mag builds running rele for single target fights.
The BiS meta chasers will just do whatever the streamers or the big teams do, but the mid-tier raiders are experimenting and trying sets in content and going over the logs to see what works and what doesn't.
Monster sets having crits has really closed the gap between kilt and non kilt builds. last patch zaan was only 2kish behind kilt from what i saw, this patch maw, kjarlnar or nerien'eth are right up there. it all comes down to what skills your build incorporates, and what proc conditions are friendly to you.1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We need a new trial dummy to test effective DPS. When attacking it it'll spawn AoEs and sources of damage/healing to simulate what it'd be like to be in an actual trial. Force down time on the player's DPS to see what their true effective DPS is.
I know I learned the hard way that melee DPS on a trial is very ineffective compared to ranged DPS despite it dealing less damage. Reason being is mechanics pushing you out of range and other stuff like that.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't think we need a dummy for this, i think it's just applying the knowledge you gain from trials to the information you get from the dummy.
I never parse on the dummy with a DW setup on my magsorc, i know i'm never going to run it. Why would i waste time and pots parsing an AY build on a mag sorc that i'm never going to use? honestly these days I only parse to compare sets, not to try and get some magical number. if you're over 90k the build works in content. if you're over 100k then you're wasting time just crit / rng farming for BIGGA NUMBAS.
esologs.com exists for a reason. if you're serious about trials, then logs your runs and check your buffs, debuffs, sustain, dots and casts. take the time to look for missing light attacks.3 -
fizl101✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't think we need a dummy for this, i think it's just applying the knowledge you gain from trials to the information you get from the dummy.
I never parse on the dummy with a DW setup on my magsorc, i know i'm never going to run it. Why would i waste time and pots parsing an AY build on a mag sorc that i'm never going to use? honestly these days I only parse to compare sets, not to try and get some magical number. if you're over 90k the build works in content. if you're over 100k then you're wasting time just crit / rng farming for BIGGA NUMBAS.
esologs.com exists for a reason. if you're serious about trials, then logs your runs and check your buffs, debuffs, sustain, dots and casts. take the time to look for missing light attacks.
Agree, I only parse on the dummy what I am 100% going to use/wear in a trial. That includes the food etc. I can hit slightly higher numbers on a dummy wearing rele, but I know in a trial where I have to move alot I won't keep those 10 stacks up. Good for sunspire dragons, not so good chasing the left side boss in Hel Ra.
I'm really loving this patch having more choice with monster sets, dungeons sets etc again. My stamplar wearing aegis caller is hitting 82k which I am extremely happy with.Soupy twist1 -
LashanW✭✭✭✭✭
✭So the issue is people looking at trial/parse build guides and trying to use it everywhere without thinking? That's their problem isn't it? Most build guides I looked at were specific about the type of content the build is aimed for. Or dummy parse videos where it just showcased a parse. Not a single word on where it is intended to be used. I guess those creators assume people who watch their videos are already aware of the context.
From a mag DD perspective, I personally like this update. A lot of new options are now in (mostly former stam only sets now usable on mag). Tzogvin (staves for non melee fights) and AY (for melee fights) are my favorites to go along with Bahsei. Medusa for short fights.
Dual wield AY on magsorc is very good for parse fights like Sunspire 2nd boss. I use it myself there. It's not a useful setup in all content sure, but there is a few where it is top tier.I don't think we need a dummy for this, i think it's just applying the knowledge you gain from trials to the information you get from the dummy.
I never parse on the dummy with a DW setup on my magsorc, i know i'm never going to run it. Why would i waste time and pots parsing an AY build on a mag sorc that i'm never going to use? honestly these days I only parse to compare sets, not to try and get some magical number. if you're over 90k the build works in content. if you're over 100k then you're wasting time just crit / rng farming for BIGGA NUMBAS.
esologs.com exists for a reason. if you're serious about trials, then logs your runs and check your buffs, debuffs, sustain, dots and casts. take the time to look for missing light attacks.
There's quite a bit of 100k+ magsorc parses using AY (top ones using vampirism) on Yolna HM. Source = esologs.comEdited by LashanW on November 29, 2021 9:49AM---No longer active in ESO---
Platform: PC-EU
CP: 2500+Trial Achievements
Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, Tick-Tock Tormentor, Immortal Redeemer, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, vMoL no death
Arena Achievements
vMA Flawless, vVH Spirit Slayer
DLC Dungeon Trifectas
Scalecaller Peak, Fang Lair, Depths of Malatar, Icereach0 -
Muttsmutt✭✭✭✭✭great point. i hope content creators see your post & take it into account.PC-EU // UNDEAD0 -
ForeverJenn✭✭✭Oh please. Unless you're in a sweaty trial guild, most people are looking for a 60k parse. Maybe 80k for harder content. No one here complaining on the forums is being told "you can only hit 95k, you can't come"
You wanna wear your old mag meta sets? Then wear them. They're still decent. Just don't get upset that the guy that upgraded his gear is doing more dps. That's how this game has always worked.
And unless you're building a specific four man trifecta group, your trial sets work just fine in a dungeon with competent players.Edited by ForeverJenn on November 29, 2021 10:58AM4 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭Agree the point, but hasn't that always been true, at least to a degree? For eg, I've always found that sets that have a ramp up just don't perform well in a lot of content when fights just arn't that long.
The question I would ask is are crit builds actually that good for regular groups. Bear in minds sets like MS got nerfed quite heavily a while back because they were overperforming.
I guess the question is, overperforming where? I've always assumed that zos balanced them for trial groups where people were getting very high crit dmg multipliers. By implication, if you're not getitng lots of crit dmg multipliers, they're probably not going to be nearly as good.
I haven't done a lot of testing, but when I have, I've found that I get better dps on my magsorc running bog standard stuff like juianos and bsw than I do if I load up MS and medusa.
Like I say, Ive not tested scientifically, but my hunch wd be that they balanced crit sets for trial groups and if you're in a pug that, as you say, isn't going to get anywhere near 125% crit damage, crit sets not only won't be that good, but were probably never that good.
Anyway, agree the sentiment - and like the change. Just one of those questions I perdiodically ask myself, but never quite get around to getting to the bottom of
Edited by Larcomar on November 29, 2021 11:09AM0 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭One of the reasons that contribute to this confusion is the fact that people sometimes misunderstand the concept of 'Meta'.
Meta is the group composition and tactics for the content you are tackling, not just the sets and skills an individual player equips.
As OP points out now there is an even greater divide between what equipment and skills are adequate for say vHM DLC dungeons vs vet trials.
In fact personally I find two of the most common 'meta' combinations in U32 for Mag DD characters (Bahsei + either Kinra's or Siroria) suboptimal to tackle 4 player content with the people that I usually engage on this activity with.
Is not awful, is just not great either.
Depending on the class I am playing something like MS + WM yields better results in the shorter and more 'mobile' encounters found in dungeons/arenas; besides I am not fully dependent on two players in the group being fully geared/skilled towards providing bufs/debuffs and I am not constrained by the 'ramp up' times found on some sets.
Sure, the damage 'ceiling' is lower, but I can get there significantly faster and with less dependency on buff/debuff uptimes.
It also 'frees' me to slot skills that can provide better synergy with what the rest of the group brings to the table and what particular dungeon/arena we are tackling.
tl;dr: Meta is a composite of group size, skills, tactics, gear and content. Sets are only one part of the picture.1 -
Succuby✭✭✭We need a new trial dummy to test effective DPS. When attacking it it'll spawn AoEs and sources of damage/healing to simulate what it'd be like to be in an actual trial. Force down time on the player's DPS to see what their true effective DPS is.
I know I learned the hard way that melee DPS on a trial is very ineffective compared to ranged DPS despite it dealing less damage. Reason being is mechanics pushing you out of range and other stuff like that.
https://youtu.be/aFafAnskXFo
Better housing option for that is a solution, and it is good not to "know your dps" but for training.
Dummy is not a solution - target dummy is just a dummy.1 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't confuse dummy meta with trial meta.
There are plenty of sets which are still performing very well and it's not so simple for most people to maintain high kinra uptimes when they are running it front bar only. tzogvin is much easier to maintain than kinra because as long as you've got some damage ticking and you're on the front bar it'll maintain itself, but if you've just refreshed your backbar and now you need to block some mechanics like meteors then kiss that major berserk good bye.
I reckon half the people I knew running bahsei last patch are moving on to other sets. Definitely seeing more than a few mag builds running rele for single target fights.
The BiS meta chasers will just do whatever the streamers or the big teams do, but the mid-tier raiders are experimenting and trying sets in content and going over the logs to see what works and what doesn't.
Monster sets having crits has really closed the gap between kilt and non kilt builds. last patch zaan was only 2kish behind kilt from what i saw, this patch maw, kjarlnar or nerien'eth are right up there. it all comes down to what skills your build incorporates, and what proc conditions are friendly to you.
What do you think of stormfist?I am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭francesinhalover wrote: »Don't confuse dummy meta with trial meta.
There are plenty of sets which are still performing very well and it's not so simple for most people to maintain high kinra uptimes when they are running it front bar only. tzogvin is much easier to maintain than kinra because as long as you've got some damage ticking and you're on the front bar it'll maintain itself, but if you've just refreshed your backbar and now you need to block some mechanics like meteors then kiss that major berserk good bye.
I reckon half the people I knew running bahsei last patch are moving on to other sets. Definitely seeing more than a few mag builds running rele for single target fights.
The BiS meta chasers will just do whatever the streamers or the big teams do, but the mid-tier raiders are experimenting and trying sets in content and going over the logs to see what works and what doesn't.
Monster sets having crits has really closed the gap between kilt and non kilt builds. last patch zaan was only 2kish behind kilt from what i saw, this patch maw, kjarlnar or nerien'eth are right up there. it all comes down to what skills your build incorporates, and what proc conditions are friendly to you.
What do you think of stormfist?
on a mag build the 1pc isn't as good as the others, but the proc condition is nice as long as you've got either a lot of dots or are running a spammable like jabs or force pulse that hits a lot per GCD.
the 2pc proc is doing a lot of damage this patch, well worth running.0