Scavenging Maw....ridiculous set in PvP

EmperorIl

Got hit with this for the first time tonight. 17k off one little proc that only requires a poison crit? Could we get anymore easy mode in ZOS? If more people played Ravenwatch I would be there to get away from the skill-less crutches of proc haven. At least try. All the more reason to have PvP only sets for PvP, where it can be better controlled and balanced.

EmperorIl

This of course all happened in 2 seconds while mounted.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

On topic though you definitely need more defense. Idk how you even managed to take that much damage, that is an accomplishment. I would struggle to hit that much damage on a npc with a proc set.

EmperorIl

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

On topic though you definitely need more defense. Idk how you even managed to take that much damage, that is an accomplishment. I would struggle to hit that much damage on a npc with a proc set.

Blaming my mitigation for a proc set being able to do 17k lol. Okay dude. 17k damage for any proc set is way too much. Period. There are ultimates that can't do that much, yet this one can do it every 10 seconds from a easy crit that is going to happen anyway from a NB that just used cloak. Let's not pretend this takes any amount of skill....I main a NB as well. I know how little skill it takes to bow-gank someone on a mount so let's be honest please.

And I know you play a bow gank NB Slam....nice try.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

EmperorIl wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

On topic though you definitely need more defense. Idk how you even managed to take that much damage, that is an accomplishment. I would struggle to hit that much damage on a npc with a proc set.

Blaming my mitigation for a proc set being able to do 17k lol. Okay dude. 17k damage for any proc set is way too much. Period. There are ultimates that can't do that much, yet this one can do it every 10 seconds from a easy crit that is going to happen anyway from a NB that just used cloak. Let's not pretend this takes any amount of skill....I main a NB as well. I know how little skill it takes to bow-gank someone on a mount so let's be honest please.

And I know you play a bow gank NB Slam....nice try.

Well I am a ganker, but I almost never use a bow anymore for ganking. My bow setup can only gank really squishy targets now since they nerfed thunder caller by 75%. I almost exclusively gank with a dual wield setup.

Yeah that is really high damage, but idk how it hit that hard. Combination of getting fully penetrated and the nb using simmering frenzy I bet. I think the set it fine enough with that 2 second delay its a bit harder to use then instant procs. Like you said its easy to gank people off of mounts, so I imagine he could have killed you there with any proc set.

jaws343

Considering it was the last hit to kill you after you already took 24k damage, it is very likely that the proc set was a crit and the proc set was dealing some sort of execute damage scale. Maybe bloodthirsty is use. But really, you already took 24k damage, you were dead no matter what else that player threw at you.

EmperorIl

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

On topic though you definitely need more defense. Idk how you even managed to take that much damage, that is an accomplishment. I would struggle to hit that much damage on a npc with a proc set.

Blaming my mitigation for a proc set being able to do 17k lol. Okay dude. 17k damage for any proc set is way too much. Period. There are ultimates that can't do that much, yet this one can do it every 10 seconds from a easy crit that is going to happen anyway from a NB that just used cloak. Let's not pretend this takes any amount of skill....I main a NB as well. I know how little skill it takes to bow-gank someone on a mount so let's be honest please.

And I know you play a bow gank NB Slam....nice try.

Well I am a ganker, but I almost never use a bow anymore for ganking. My bow setup can only gank really squishy targets now since they nerfed thunder caller by 75%. I almost exclusively gank with a dual wield setup.

Yeah that is really high damage, but idk how it hit that hard. Combination of getting fully penetrated and the nb using simmering frenzy I bet. I think the set it fine enough with that 2 second delay its a bit harder to use then instant procs. Like you said its easy to gank people off of mounts, so I imagine he could have killed you there with any proc set.

Fair enough.

Urzigurumash

I agree this was probably an Execute-scaled Crit. I think it would be nice if recaps were adjusted to show how much damage was actually taken, i.e. subtracted from the HP bar, even better if Combat Text was adjusted in this way too.

auz

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

Probably because they do things like hit for 17k because someone had a tick of poison damage on them. Exactly what was it about that, that took skill?

It's free damage for doing something you were going to do anyway. There was no deceit. If they are not free damage why use them?

katorga

Dunno. Maybe cause ZOS loves to add proc sets. ZOS code proc sets to scale off of stats. ZOS let proc sets crit?

This is in line with all of the other effective builds out there. Worse, in my opinion because of the more random proc condition and 2s delay on the Maw. I don't see the problem.

Rhaegar75

Annoying set but far, very far from being a problematic one in my opinion

Dorkener

Ugh, if anything I find an instant CC skill hitting for 7.8k (only 2k less than a cast time spammable) more stupid.

LittlePinkDot

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

On topic though you definitely need more defense. Idk how you even managed to take that much damage, that is an accomplishment. I would struggle to hit that much damage on a npc with a proc set.

Blaming my mitigation for a proc set being able to do 17k lol. Okay dude. 17k damage for any proc set is way too much. Period. There are ultimates that can't do that much, yet this one can do it every 10 seconds from a easy crit that is going to happen anyway from a NB that just used cloak. Let's not pretend this takes any amount of skill....I main a NB as well. I know how little skill it takes to bow-gank someone on a mount so let's be honest please.

And I know you play a bow gank NB Slam....nice try.

Well I am a ganker, but I almost never use a bow anymore for ganking. My bow setup can only gank really squishy targets now since they nerfed thunder caller by 75%. I almost exclusively gank with a dual wield setup.

Yeah that is really high damage, but idk how it hit that hard. Combination of getting fully penetrated and the nb using simmering frenzy I bet. I think the set it fine enough with that 2 second delay its a bit harder to use then instant procs. Like you said its easy to gank people off of mounts, so I imagine he could have killed you there with any proc set.

Does the critical chance stats of that set also increase spell critical? And would befouled weapon enchantment on a destruction staff count as poisoning?

Chilly-McFreeze

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

On topic though you definitely need more defense. Idk how you even managed to take that much damage, that is an accomplishment. I would struggle to hit that much damage on a npc with a proc set.

Blaming my mitigation for a proc set being able to do 17k lol. Okay dude. 17k damage for any proc set is way too much. Period. There are ultimates that can't do that much, yet this one can do it every 10 seconds from a easy crit that is going to happen anyway from a NB that just used cloak. Let's not pretend this takes any amount of skill....I main a NB as well. I know how little skill it takes to bow-gank someone on a mount so let's be honest please.

And I know you play a bow gank NB Slam....nice try.

Well I am a ganker, but I almost never use a bow anymore for ganking. My bow setup can only gank really squishy targets now since they nerfed thunder caller by 75%. I almost exclusively gank with a dual wield setup.

Yeah that is really high damage, but idk how it hit that hard. Combination of getting fully penetrated and the nb using simmering frenzy I bet. I think the set it fine enough with that 2 second delay its a bit harder to use then instant procs. Like you said its easy to gank people off of mounts, so I imagine he could have killed you there with any proc set.

Does the critical chance stats of that set also increase spell critical? And would befouled weapon enchantment on a destruction staff count as poisoning?

Befould should deal disease, not poison, iirc. But yes, it increases spell crit and should proc on critted poison enchants.

ThePedge

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

Put on, for the sake of argument, Heartland and NMA. Two stat sets console will die by. Then just light attack a dummy for a minute and see your DPS. Only light attack.

Now put on Syvarras and another set of your choice, and do the same thing.

You will see how for the least skillfull playstyle, procs sets give you far more damage.

Because in any zerg in Cyrodiil there will be a number of players, on any platform, that only Light Attack. And having proc sets means they actually do damage for no effort, over stat sets.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

ThePedge wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

Put on, for the sake of argument, Heartland and NMA. Two stat sets console will die by. Then just light attack a dummy for a minute and see your DPS. Only light attack.

Now put on Syvarras and another set of your choice, and do the same thing.

You will see how for the least skillfull playstyle, procs sets give you far more damage.

Because in any zerg in Cyrodiil there will be a number of players, on any platform, that only Light Attack. And having proc sets means they actually do damage for no effort, over stat sets.

Proc sets are higher effort then stat sets. They literally require an extra action to proc, therefore require more effort. Yeah some proc sets are easy to proc, but others are not such as curse of doylemish. Then you got the ones that require crits so they are harder to control and predict. Not saying the difference between proc and stat builds is extreme, but proc builds are for sure harder(even if only slightly).

Since when are proc sets higher dps then stat sets? You should go tell the pvers that they are building incorrectly because they are all running stat sets for dps. I expect we will see every stam dps running syvarras scales now. At least magicka dps won't have to use mother's sorrow anymore finally.

Chilly-McFreeze

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

Put on, for the sake of argument, Heartland and NMA. Two stat sets console will die by. Then just light attack a dummy for a minute and see your DPS. Only light attack.

Now put on Syvarras and another set of your choice, and do the same thing.

You will see how for the least skillfull playstyle, procs sets give you far more damage.

Because in any zerg in Cyrodiil there will be a number of players, on any platform, that only Light Attack. And having proc sets means they actually do damage for no effort, over stat sets.

Proc sets are higher effort then stat sets. They literally require an extra action to proc, therefore require more effort. Yeah some proc sets are easy to proc, but others are not such as curse of doylemish. Then you got the ones that require crits so they are harder to control and predict. Not saying the difference between proc and stat builds is extreme, but proc builds are for sure harder(even if only slightly).

Since when are proc sets higher dps then stat sets? You should go tell the pvers that they are building incorrectly because they are all running stat sets for dps. I expect we will see every stam dps running syvarras scales now. At least magicka dps won't have to use mother's sorrow anymore finally.

Oh come on. Most proc sets aren't on the condition level of dolymesh. Most only require you to deal some/specific kind of dmg. You don't have to bend yourself into a brezel to do that.

But I am not up to date. Is every stam DD in pve still running relequen?

MEBengalsFan2001

EmperorIl wrote: »

Got hit with this for the first time tonight. 17k off one little proc that only requires a poison crit? Could we get anymore easy mode in ZOS? If more people played Ravenwatch I would be there to get away from the skill-less crutches of proc haven. At least try. All the more reason to have PvP only sets for PvP, where it can be better controlled and balanced.

I would also like skills to be adjusted in PVP and clearly state what the skill does in PVE vs PVP. Other games simply set things up where if you use X in A it does Z but if you use X in B it does Y. etc...

Having PVP only gear and skills make PVP a better experience. As for proc sets, don't forget that the recent proc sets such as DC & Plaguebreak are PVP sets.

ThePedge

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

How did we get deceived into believing proc sets take less skill then pure stats? One requires you to actually "proc" the effect and line it up with your burst combo and the other is just free stats. It would be like saying resistances require more skill then rolling or blocking. Passive stats can never take more skill then something you need to actively do.

Put on, for the sake of argument, Heartland and NMA. Two stat sets console will die by. Then just light attack a dummy for a minute and see your DPS. Only light attack.

Now put on Syvarras and another set of your choice, and do the same thing.

You will see how for the least skillfull playstyle, procs sets give you far more damage.

Because in any zerg in Cyrodiil there will be a number of players, on any platform, that only Light Attack. And having proc sets means they actually do damage for no effort, over stat sets.

Proc sets are higher effort then stat sets. They literally require an extra action to proc, therefore require more effort. Yeah some proc sets are easy to proc, but others are not such as curse of doylemish. Then you got the ones that require crits so they are harder to control and predict. Not saying the difference between proc and stat builds is extreme, but proc builds are for sure harder(even if only slightly).

Since when are proc sets higher dps then stat sets? You should go tell the pvers that they are building incorrectly because they are all running stat sets for dps. I expect we will see every stam dps running syvarras scales now. At least magicka dps won't have to use mother's sorrow anymore finally.

No, please read.
Proc sets you encounter in PvP require NO extra effort to use. Plaguebreak, Syvarra, Venomous Smite, Caluurion, Icy Conjurer, Way of Fire. All will proc off of only pressing light attack.
You get far more damage from ONLY LIGHT ATTACKING WITH PROC SETS, than only light attacking with stat sets.
Don't bring up rotations, as that's not the scenario.
There is a large number of players, especially in Cyrodiil, who only light attack. Being in proc sets gives them a large amount of damage, compared to if they wore stat sets and did the same thing.
It promotes reward for no effort or skill.

wazzz56

Is there really an argument going on here about proc set builds requiring more skill than stat based sets?

Urzigurumash

wazzz56 wrote: »

Is there really an argument going on here about proc set builds requiring more skill than stat based sets?

There were many debates on this forum some time ago about this subject, both I and a well-known NB YouTuber were making the case, that sometimes, maybe they can. Incidentally I was only speaking of Doylemish and he was only speaking of Vicecannon of Venom. I've used Doylemish quite a bit since it came out, maybe more than anybody on my server.

A good example I think is the revised Queen's Elegance. Not that this unusual conditional proc is worth running, but I would say it requires some skill to use the way it's intended, as a buff to a Direct Damage skill and not the Heavy Attack itself. Stat sets neither require nor diminish skill - some proc sets like Syvarra's indeed diminish skill, but Doylemish, Vicecannon, Elegance - all of these I think do require some skill to outperform a non-conditional set.

All 3 of these sets are "double conditional" - Doylemish requires fully-charged + stun, Vicecannon requires crit + flanking, Elegance requires fully-charged + ability fired before the HA lands.

Scavenging Maw is slightly more conditional than Syvarra's, but less than Vicecannon.

auz

The condition of the proc isn't what makes proc sets require less skill. What makes proc sets less skilled is the addition of extra damage in the burst combo outside of the regular LA skill gcd. Hence free damage. And if it is not free additional damage to your combo, why use it?

SigmarusWyrmborn

I am sorry but most ultimates will hit harder than that proc if you are running around in light armor divines

katorga

auz wrote: »

The condition of the proc isn't what makes proc sets require less skill. What makes proc sets less skilled is the addition of extra damage in the burst combo outside of the regular LA skill gcd. Hence free damage. And if it is not free additional damage to your combo, why use it?

Why complain? ZOS loves the sets and will keep adding them.

The “skill” required is build craft, not pressing buttons faster than the other person.

Or look at it the other way, if you can reduce your burst to the fewest possible key strokes / gcd, you can use you button pressing prowess for other things like defense, movement.

Urzigurumash

auz wrote: »

The condition of the proc isn't what makes proc sets require less skill. What makes proc sets less skilled is the addition of extra damage in the burst combo outside of the regular LA skill gcd. Hence free damage. And if it is not free additional damage to your combo, why use it?

If this alone qualified procs as detrimental to skillfulness, wouldn't we say the same thing about any sort of delayed burst, and even DoTs too?

SigmarusWyrmborn

I tried this set and to be honest it is poop. The 2 second delay is too long as people are always on the move and roll dodging.

Jaraal

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I agree this was probably an Execute-scaled Crit. I think it would be nice if recaps were adjusted to show how much damage was actually taken, i.e. subtracted from the HP bar, even better if Combat Text was adjusted in this way too.

There are gear combos that would double that tooltip damage. And yes, it's mostly execute based.

Brrrofski

I've seen a few people use it, and it was tickling me. So not sure what's happened there.

But yeh, critting proc sets back is so dumb.

I got wiped out instantly by a 38k plague break yesterday. Fun fact, there was 5 of us vs 11/12 of them on the back flag. Great "zerg buster" set ZOS.

biminirwb17_ESO

I guess this was a NB snipe from stealth, crit and stun. The ganker would have had his spot picked and was waiting for the "right" player to ride past.

Using an add on like squishy finder he would have picked a low health target and let go his combo. As others have stated you were almost ded when the Maw procced, even if it hadn't the poison status effect and PI poison would have ticked and you were toast.

You got ganked.

universal_wrath

Isn't scavanger proc take about 2 secs to activate and it has a telegraphic animation that indicate you are being targeted? It should be easily countered by either dodging or blocking.

EmperorIl

universal_wrath wrote: »

Isn't scavanger proc take about 2 secs to activate and it has a telegraphic animation that indicate you are being targeted? It should be easily countered by either dodging or blocking.

You missed the part about me being mounted, and it was all so quick 2 seconds is about all I had. Let's pretend the game doesn't work as intended for a minute and it might all make sense In a game where dsync is so bad someone can kill you in 1-2 seconds but still manage to get off 5 attacks somehow.....yea. Because I'm sure you've never been killed in 2 seconds by 3+ snipes you never heard or saw coming right? What kind of nub lets someone get those off?

This is the problem with this community, stupid crap that does ridiculous damage (higher than ultimates) is always defended because "you should have blah blah blah". Stop blaming the players for poor PvP balance. [snip] And the fact I got hit with something avoidable thanks to being mounted and dsync should not negate the fact it still would have done 17k damage to me as a proc, no action by the player required.

[edited for bashing]