Lets see some numbers... do you prefer Deathmatch or Objective game modes?

GypsyKing22

Lots of threads where people claim that deathmatch isn't the most popular, and that it only pops because of a screwed up queue system. I personally think deathmatch is actually the most popular but that doesn't matter, lets see what the numbers say! (at least as far as the BG forumgoers go)

trackdemon5512

Objectives

- I like being able to enter a BG without specifically gearing up to blow out the other team.
- I like picking up the 1000 medals daily and being able to complete it in a single BG
- I like that though I’m not the most powerful player on my team (because my life isn’t kill other players) that I can aim for top score by sitting on a flag and protecting it
- I like that in Crazy King it goes from initial kill-fest to a strategic game of advance/defend
- I like that in Capture the Relic you can watch people duke it out while they’ve taken their mind off the objective and you can brilliantly get relics
- I like that my final score is built more off my ingenuity rather than my ability to kill

- I DONT like that ZOS has never developed a true solo Deathmatch, without teams, to at least give Deathmatch players some leeway and to remove the overbearing unfairness that is entire coordinated teams against people playing alone

mandricus

Objectives

I'll write here what I already wrote in another thread.
I'm one of the few players (apparently) who enjoy the objective-mode BGs, and the 3 teams scheme. I mean, of course I have different opinions on the various modes. I'm not a fan of Domination, which is most of the times about avoiding the fights and capture the empty flags in order to win.
But I do like Chaosball, where most of the times you have to constantly fight in a crazy ballgroup. And Crazy King, which encourages figthing at the beginning, and smart positioning as the match goes on.
I'm probably one of the few that like Capture the Relic. The 3 teams scheme, in my opinion, leads to interesting tactical dynamics, where you have to always be aware not only of what your team is doing, but also of what the other 2 teams are doing. You can understand what is happening on the battleground whitout having to have line of sight on your teammates or your enemies. Most of the times you can understand what is going on by simply observing how your teammates are moving on your compass. You can understand if there is a fight near an enemy relic, and if there is an high chance that, while most of the people are fighting around that relic, the other one is not well defended. So you can decide to take your chances and try to grab the low guarded relic at the right time, in order to negate the other team the ability to score, and creating, in the very end, interesting situations on a tactical level. You have constantly question yourself if it's the right moment to defend, or if it's better to try to go for a score, and what to do with the relic when you have it: is it better to score now, or is it better to just hold it, waiting for the other teams to eventually lose their relic in a fight, and then score?

That said, my point is: I like objective mode Bgs. Do I have the right to have a chance to play this game as I want, as anyone else, and as advertised? At the moment, I don't. I don't have a chance, because I enjoy objective mode BG, i keep trying queueing for random battlegrounds, but all I am getting is deathmatches, over and over and over. I won't keep trying forever. Many have already given up. Others will at some point.

At this point, I would prefer waiting an entire afternoon trying to join a Random BG match, rather than the current situation.
We don't have the numbers to start a match? Please let us try. If we won't be able to start a match after a whole day trying, we could always willingly decide to queue for Deathmatch and get a match. This decision, however, it should be up to us, not to you saying "since you won't be able to get the match you like, I'll get you a match that you don't like, because I think that having a match you don't like is better than nothing, in the end".

No thanks.
I would like to be free to take my chances and watching my queue to go on forever, rather than not even having the possibility to get what I want. I should be allowed to wait 3 hours in a queue, if I think that is worth it. This decision should be up to me.

This game is all about choices, and at the moment, on this aspect, I don't have one.

Someone else decided for me that I don't deserve this kind of choice, is't not up to me do decide which kind of match I want to play and if I prefer to keep waiting hours in a queue or to have a match anyway, even if I don't like it.

While I can understand the ratio behind this choice on ZOS' side for the casual players, I think that there is something fundamentally wrong in this choice. Something that goes against the very core philosophy of this game, wich is supposed to be: play how you want, the way you want.

Sadly, that's no longer true for me. I don't get to play as I want, I am forced to play how someone else decided it was better for me.

NagualV

Deathmatch

Doesnt matter what this poll shows....this poll wont be representative of the truth.

The Devs themselves have said that people BY FAR are queuing into DM.....it has always been the most popular.

Useless poll.

xDeusEJRx

Deathmatch

I prefer tdm only cause that's the only proper gamemode in this game where you can straight up go in and fight a player. Lots of times I tweak or rework builds but I can't properly test in other PVP instances.

IC is dead most of the time or people are there to farm telvar so they'll just ignore you.
Cyrodiil is just glorified riding simulator to a fight that might end before you get there, or it's Faction stacking PVDoor where one faction holds entire campaign
Dueling is pretty impossible to do because no one wants to do duels in any towns(they're there to do PVE) and there's no queue for duels in this game

Which only leaves BGs, which has TDM. So incidentally that would be my preference since it provides what I'm looking for, a quick mode where I can kill people and where people want to kill me and I get to actually test my build.

thesarahandcompany

Deathmatch

I don't think you can use polling data from the forums to gain any quantitative insights. There's a huge selection bias issue and error from sampling strategy when it comes to polling data on the forums. Your question, in my view as someone who is a survey statistician professionally, is also problematic in its design too. Even if deathmatch receives the most votes (which is my selection), you still shouldn't use these data to make an assumption about the mode's popularity, which has been confirmed already by Rich on his stream.

1.) Selection bias is prevalent on the forums because access to the forums involves two forms of nonrandom selection. First, people self-select to participate in the forums. We do not arrive to the forums in a truly random way. Second, people also self-select into responding to this question, mostly receiving response from people who have a vested interest in this topic for whatever reason, and are not the typical or average player.

2.) This isn't a random sample. Therefore, you cannot invoke the Central Limit Theorem and make generalizations about the ESO player base. The ESO player base is a finite population, and the data Rich has referred to on his stream is, what I'm assuming with a high degree of confidence, population data on queues.

3.) Your question, regardless of the first two issues, is also a bad question. To begin "objectives" is not a PVP mode. There are five game modes. Deathmatch, Domination, Crazy King, Capture the Relic and Chaos Ball. There's an egregious specification issue with your question, as saying "objective modes" allows you to pool together the population of FOUR different modes and compare them to ONE mode deathmatch. This creates a significant disparity and equity issue in the measurement. I would have written your question like such:

Please rank the following battlegrounds modes from favorite to least favorite, where 1 is your most favorite and 5 is your least favorite.

(Ranking, 1-5)
Capture the Relic
Chaos Ball
Crazy King
Deathmatch
Domination

On a final note, even with objective games all being pooled together, deathmatch is still the mode that is being queued by a vast majority of players. Enough arguing about this simple fact. It's time to move on and start talking about how to make objective modes more engaging to the vast majority of players.

Sylosi

Neither. They are both terrible for a variety of reasons, but to name the biggest one - they are both 3-way, so fundamentally don't work as PvP modes and aren't fit for anything beyond clowning. So for those of us who want PvP that is at least somewhat skilled, competitive and fun we have to go elsewhere.

Araneae6537

Objectives

I don’t think anyone is saying that Deathmatch isn’t popular (well, maybe some say that but I think it’s obviously wrong) but even if it wasn’t and only 1 in 10 people queuing for BGs queued for Deathmatch and the rest “random,” since the queues are combined, that would mean all Deathmatch. I’m sure more queue than that. The “random” queue is a joke that I’ve become more than a bit irritated with. The queues should be separate and I’d don’t mind if that means I need to wait a bit longer to get a match.

redspecter23

Objectives

I don't think the poll is useless as stated earlier.

Deathmatch should win. It is the most popular. However, it can be important to see how far ahead it is, even if it's just a forum representation.

If objective BG currently pops about 5% of the time but 25% of the poll shows players prefer that format, there is useful information there, whether ZOS digs a bit deeper into it or not.

thesarahandcompany

Deathmatch

redspecter23 wrote: »

I don't think the poll is useless as stated earlier.

Deathmatch should win. It is the most popular. However, it can be important to see how far ahead it is, even if it's just a forum representation.

If objective BG currently pops about 5% of the time but 25% of the poll shows players prefer that format, there is useful information there, whether ZOS digs a bit deeper into it or not.

It's not useful information. Any professional statistician who is good at there job would tell you that using this poll to make general decisions is a bad, bad idea. We know the data from Rich, I don't get why objective players are having to constantly try and refabricate something to 'win.'

mandricus

Objectives

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

It's not useful information. Any professional statistician who is good at there job would tell you that using this poll to make general decisions is a bad, bad idea. We know the data from Rich, I don't get why objective players are having to constantly try and refabricate something to 'win.'

I don't know for the others, but personally I don't want to win anything, as there is absolutely nothing to be won here.
We are just expressing our opinions as members of the playerbase.

As for me, I would like to have a choice. At the moment, I don't have it. I keep asking for a random BG every evening, i'm getting Deathmatch all the times. 2 weeks in a row.

I'm not saying that everyone should play objective bgs. People that like deatchmatch will continue to queue for deathmatch. Everyone will be happy.
I'm just saying that I don't care if I will have to wait longer in the queue. I would like to be able to try to get any other mode than "Deathmatch". I'm playing Deatmatch since about 2 months, it's becoming boring.

GypsyKing22

Deathmatch

lol guys I wanted to see just the forum numbers, i know this won't be representative of anything or that it shouldn't be used to draw any conclusions other than show us the number of the people that come on this particular forum and are signed up and can be bothered to vote on either option

to be fair i kinda also wanted to show the objective gamemode crew that even with their vested interests and all their numbers they wont outnumber the dm players kek

if anything this shows that even by combining all the objective game modes, dm is still more popular, let alone individually

trackdemon5512

Objectives

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

lol guys I wanted to see just the forum numbers, i know this won't be representative of anything or that it shouldn't be used to draw any conclusions other than show us the number of the people that come on this particular forum and are signed up and can be bothered to vote on either option

to be fair i kinda also wanted to show the objective gamemode crew that even with their vested interests and all their numbers they wont outnumber the dm players kek

if anything this shows that even by combining all the objective game modes, dm is still more popular, let alone individually

As of this post it’s 15 DM, 14 Objective, and 1 account who was clearly created today for the purpose of this vote. I’m looking at the individual who hasn’t done anything else on this forum ever and somehow, on their “first” day somehow navigated to this buried page.

It’s not that serious of a poll.

NagualV

Deathmatch

redspecter23 wrote: »

I don't think the poll is useless as stated earlier.

Deathmatch should win. It is the most popular. However, it can be important to see how far ahead it is, even if it's just a forum representation.

If objective BG currently pops about 5% of the time but 25% of the poll shows players prefer that format, there is useful information there, whether ZOS digs a bit deeper into it or not.

I hear you man....perhaps I came across the wrong way....

I really just meant it as - "the devs already stated how it is". It came from Rich Lambert himself. That's all.

I honestly do hope the objective players are able to get to play what they want, I'm sincere saying that. But I just think many on the forums are having a hard time accepting what Rich said, that's all

thesarahandcompany

Deathmatch

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is saying that Deathmatch isn’t popular (well, maybe some say that but I think it’s obviously wrong) but even if it wasn’t and only 1 in 10 people queuing for BGs queued for Deathmatch and the rest “random,” since the queues are combined, that would mean all Deathmatch. I’m sure more queue than that. The “random” queue is a joke that I’ve become more than a bit irritated with. The queues should be separate and I’d don’t mind if that means I need to wait a bit longer to get a match.

Again. This right here is why deathmatch players aren't giving any quarter.

1) It's not just 1 in 12 players in a given queue forcing deathmatch. Based on Rich's comments that the "vast majority" of players are queueing deathmatch, at LEAST 7 in 12 players in a given queue, on average, are queueing for it. Saying it's "1 in 12" is a serious understatement of how popular the mode is. We are defensive against this argument because we effectively went nearly two years without being able to queue deathmatch, or even queueing into it randomly. So any attempt to minimize the community's size in an argument about the queue is going to receive zero support from our community.

2) Stop blaming the (wrongly theorized) "1 in 12" deathmatch player for the queue issues.

3) It's also been said that if deathmatch was taken out of the mix, the queues would never pop for objective modes.

My question is why can't we get an actual response on how to improve objective games to be more engaging from objective gamers?

trackdemon5512

Objectives

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is saying that Deathmatch isn’t popular (well, maybe some say that but I think it’s obviously wrong) but even if it wasn’t and only 1 in 10 people queuing for BGs queued for Deathmatch and the rest “random,” since the queues are combined, that would mean all Deathmatch. I’m sure more queue than that. The “random” queue is a joke that I’ve become more than a bit irritated with. The queues should be separate and I’d don’t mind if that means I need to wait a bit longer to get a match.

Again. This right here is why deathmatch players aren't giving any quarter.

1) It's not just 1 in 12 players in a given queue forcing deathmatch. Based on Rich's comments that the "vast majority" of players are queueing deathmatch, at LEAST 7 in 12 players in a given queue, on average, are queueing for it. Saying it's "1 in 12" is a serious understatement of how popular the mode is. We are defensive against this argument because we effectively went nearly two years without being able to queue deathmatch, or even queueing into it randomly. So any attempt to minimize the community's size in an argument about the queue is going to receive zero support from our community.

2) Stop blaming the (wrongly theorized) "1 in 12" deathmatch player for the queue issues.

3) It's also been said that if deathmatch was taken out of the mix, the queues would never pop for objective modes.

My question is why can't we get an actual response on how to improve objective games to be more engaging from objective gamers?

I know you hate on it but the “1 in 12” issue is actually a thing. It doesn’t have to be a real “1 in 12” but rather it represents the flawed condition that if the opposite were true people would be just as angry.

Say 11 people put in for a deathmatch only and 1 person put in for anything else. Then afterward the system gave ya objective games 100% of the time unless all 12 random people put in for Deathmatch only.

It doesn’t matter what the proportion is, it’s that it’s horribly favored without yield.

Yes the current people are mostly Deathmatch players queuing up. That’s what happens when you don’t have any objective matches for two months, don’t tell players you’ve brought them back, but left in place a queue system that with the current active Deathmatch only population is only going to give you one result 99% of time.

ealdwin

Objectives

Here:

Domination
Change to King of the Hill style match - 1 Flag in the center.

Crazy King
Same as Domination, but Flag moves around the arena. Optionally, a second flag appears after a period of time.

Chaos Ball
Make the ball damage ignore resistances and apply a snare to the carrier. (Less tanky-carriers and more take and take).

Capture the Relic
One relic that appears at one of 3 locations around the map. (Or just one location at center). Decrease the amount of points per capture from 100 to 50.

---

I'm not doubting that Objective matches could be improved, nor doubting that Deathmatch is the more popular mode. I myself don't mind DM, just not over and over again. I like the variety of all of the matches, and that is what I miss right now, the variety.

I also find it kind of ridiculous on ZOS's part if they aren't willing to at least test separating the queues for a patch, like they haven't used PVP modes as a live test-server for the past few years. Worst case is a failure in which the people who like Objective modes just continue to stay away from BGs or those still remaining leave due to long queue times. Best case scenario is there's a positive trend in overall population resulting in shorter queue times for the test-separate queue.

ZOS should consider reworking the Ball and Flag games, absolutely. But, they should do it right, and right takes some time. In the mean time, they have a queue system which advertises the ability to access the Ball and Flag games, but currently doesn't. I'd ask that they do both. Look at changing the objective modes to encourage more combat, but take the time and plan a 2022 release for those changes. In the meantime, though, just try a random queue which doesn't feed players into the DM bucket. Maybe it fails, but I think it's at least worth the try.

_adhyffbjjjf12

to OP, this is a strawman argument. NOONE is saying DM is not the most popular (interesting you did not have an option for both.....). What people are complaining about is ZOZ [snip] up their algorithm so its not random at the moment so people who like other modes lost all content. Since they screwed up i've barely played ESO at all despite having a year sub because i cant stand only playing DM, they have taken my money, and taken away content I loved playing not to mention making the millions I have spent on gear to support the game styles I like is now wasted.

[edited for profanity bypass]

KhajiitLivesMatter

Objectives

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

Lots of threads where people claim that deathmatch isn't the most popular, and that it only pops because of a screwed up queue system. I personally think deathmatch is actually the most popular but that doesn't matter, lets see what the numbers say! (at least as far as the BG forumgoers go)

objectives are fine just crazy king is the dumbest worst designed mode ever
u litterly get rewared for running like a coward instead of fighting

TheImperfect

I like both.

Jazraena

Objectives

I, too, like both. The question is fundamentally flawed.

What I don't like is being forced to play TDM exclusively. That bores me enough to reduce my BG games to the daily win.

RedTalon

Objectives

I like objectives find they take a little more thought and do die during those matches cause it leaves me exposed so have to be a bit more careful in how I go about things, during deathmatches just ball up and rotate the same skills over and over is a bit dull and wear the right set its not something that gets me thinking really.
A lot of deathmatches I end up in often result in stale mates cause everyone is doing the same thing and wearing the sane stuff, and the ones that dont are often completely one sided

Just my thoughts on the matter there is no reason to play deathmattches most of the time cause they all play the same,.

Ulfhethinn

Objectives

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Based on Rich's comments that the "vast majority" of players are queueing deathmatch

Where is this quote from? And is it in relation to the current queue setup? Because DM is the default choice, which I think is heavily biasing how people queue. Don't underestimate how many people just hit the queue up button. Back when they were running the DM only test, plenty of people were asking why they always got DM, even tho there was text in the BG window saying the queues were DM only.

Jazraena

Objectives

Some offhanded distracted comment based on questionable data sets by Rich from some stream. The link is around the forum somewhere.

Not that it addressed the fundamental problem of the current DM-skewed queue system anyway. No matter if people queue for DM more than anything else right now, they soon will be, as even if it were only 10% of the random queue they still enforce DM almost universally.

ValarMorghulis1896

Objectives

NagualV wrote: »

Doesnt matter what this poll shows....this poll wont be representative of the truth.

The Devs themselves have said that people BY FAR are queuing into DM.....it has always been the most popular.

Useless poll.

I agree. And if it doesnt end up with deathmatch in front it is also fake news!

mmtaniac

Objectives

I can play every mode i don't see problem with deathmatch but i see problem with only deathmatch.
Random is best possible way to play for me.

ob1ken0bi

I am not debating DM is most popular but in the last 12 times I queued for random game, all 12 went to DM so if the statistic is how many times DM played is recorded as being popular, well, might be a little off

Why can’t they just make the choice of DM or “other objectives” and make everyone happy? Why does it have to be DM or everything (including DM)
Wouldn’t that really tell the percent of who like what?
I am not really a pvp type player. DM isn’t horrible but when you queue in 12/12 into DM, it sucks

trackdemon5512

Objectives

Ulfhethinn wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Based on Rich's comments that the "vast majority" of players are queueing deathmatch

Where is this quote from? And is it in relation to the current queue setup? Because DM is the default choice, which I think is heavily biasing how people queue. Don't underestimate how many people just hit the queue up button. Back when they were running the DM only test, plenty of people were asking why they always got DM, even tho there was text in the BG window saying the queues were DM only.

@Ulfhethinn Rich said it in a personal Twitch stream. Thing is this doesn’t mean that DM is the most popular mode over all. That’s impossible to know because queuing for just Deathmatch has only been recently around.

He mean that since this patch dropped the majority of people going into BGs want Deathmatch. That of course happens when you spend 2 months driving anyone who wants anything but Deathmatch out of the game. The current active BG population remaining is overwhelmingly DMers.

And it’s what happens when you currently have a biased queue system that virtually guarantees DMs pop and gives only the illusion of choice. If the objective mode wanting players have left, and continue to leave, you’ll get only Deathmatch players queuing up.

Urzigurumash

Chaosball has the most potential - look at the world's most popular sports.

xDeusEJRx

Deathmatch

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Chaosball has the most potential - look at the world's most popular sports.

I think they need to rework how chaosball works, whenever I queued in I always got one of 3 scenarios happen in chaos ball

1. Someone with a literal speed build would pick it up and just run around the map with maxed out speed where no one can catch them
2. Block tanks wearing some set like harbinger who constantly pick it up, not much needs to be said here. It's annoying having a full team trying to beat down on a tank who does nothing but block
3. People purposefully throwing chaosball off map. I see a strategy where a team will grab chaosball and then run it off the map once their team dies and when they respawn, they grab it and repeat. Throw it off map so it resets whenever it seems difficult to hold and then have teammates sit and wait for respawn

Urzigurumash

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Chaosball has the most potential - look at the world's most popular sports.

I think they need to rework how chaosball works, whenever I queued in I always got one of 3 scenarios happen in chaos ball

1. Someone with a literal speed build would pick it up and just run around the map with maxed out speed where no one can catch them
2. Block tanks wearing some set like harbinger who constantly pick it up, not much needs to be said here. It's annoying having a full team trying to beat down on a tank who does nothing but block
3. People purposefully throwing chaosball off map. I see a strategy where a team will grab chaosball and then run it off the map once their team dies and when they respawn, they grab it and repeat. Throw it off map so it resets whenever it seems difficult to hold and then have teammates sit and wait for respawn

1 & 2 are much less severe than they used to be though. Circa Summerset when Swift was first released we could hit 10k HP Regen, Speed Cap, and near permanent Snare & Immobilization immunity thanks to the old Rapids. With the introduction of Plague Breaker I think Harbinger's could have some of its 2020 power restored, it was only DoT-purging that made them invincible.

But yes #3 is a problem, along with hiding in hard-to-reach spots. Like I said, potential. For sure the mode should be limited to the smaller maps - not the Arcane Univeristy, not Mor Khazgur.