My 5 wishes for PvP balance.

axi

1. Give target requirement to jabs and whirling blades so to cast them You'll need to have target on Your screen and in other case You wont be able to use them same same like with basically every other spammable ability.
2. Either give roll dodge a penatly that for 1-2 seconds after succesfully performing it You cannot enter stealth/invisibility or make cloak cost more for 1-2 seconds after succesfull dodge roll.
3. Major overhaul of healing. Every heal that can heal both the user or/and the ally should be redesigned to never heal both parties for the same amount but to have significantly lower value either for ally or for a user.
4. Do something with the streak. Undodgable , uinblockable stun in that ability that applies in whole streaking area is just way too much.
5. Reduce the damage of heavy attack builds in PvP. 15k dmg from 1 heavy attack is a bit silly considering it's free to cast and undodgable when combined with lightning/resto staff.

Aektann

How about NO?

ealdwin

1. That would defeat the point of PBAoE abilities and also hurt their functionality in PVE, so big no here.
2. Is there enough of a problem with doge-roll into cloak to warrant this? There are already counters to cloak/invisibility available. Disagree here as well.
3. Healing could be looked at, but not this way. I'll detail more below.
4. Yeah, Streak could be looked at. Not sure of a solution, seeing as I don't want to see the skill straight up ruined, but warrants a conversation.
5. Heavy Attacks rely on specific sets in order to achieve their damage and are a perfectly reasonable play-style. They're different and rare enough that they don't seem to be too big an issue, so disagree as well here.

Healing
The problem with healing right now is that its power scaling goes hand in hand with damage power scaling. My proposed solution would go as follows:

1. Heals no longer scale from Spell/Weapon Damage, just Max Magicka/Stamina
(Damage scaling can be left alone for now, this just focuses on healing)

2. Decrease the potency of all heals by 10-15%.
(By all heals, I mean all skills whereby pressing X and spending Y resources you give/gain a numerical A health. Heals based on % damage done are not included here).

3. Increase the potency of all sources of % Healing Done by 10-20%.
(The amount required to supplement for blanket nerf to heals)

This way, there becomes specific build criteria that are almost required in order to get max healing power. It still leaves reasonable healing power for self-survival in PVE and PVP when solo, but requires a little more specific building for stronger healing. (For instance, Powered on a back bar weapon might be desirable for stronger back bar heals.)

divnyi

ealdwin wrote: »

5. Heavy Attacks rely on specific sets in order to achieve their damage and are a perfectly reasonable play-style. They're different and rare enough that they don't seem to be too big an issue, so disagree as well here.

Rare - true, but damage is not reasonable when it comes from bruisers. There are just 3 exceptions from WD/SD scaling: stinging slashes, light/heavy attack damage boost sets.

Sayin that as 36k HP armor cap, medium armor & all well-fitted, double undaunted, maelstrom destro build user.

On the other hand, I don't want them to nuke it to oblivion. Regular WD/SD scaling will outright kill all light/heavy attack sets in both PvE and PvP (because heavy attack won't compete with better damage sets). Maybe flat number nerf of 15-20% would make it fair.

TheS1X

Delete Nightblade please, facepalm!

Gilvoth

this thread is titled 5 wishes for pvp Balance
here is my 5, and im sure someone wont like my wishes, or disagree with my wishes, all i can say to that is:
i have no interest in debating, im just giving my 5 wishes for balance in pvp.
i dont care if you dont like my 5 wishes. just giving my honest feedback.

1) Give a Very High Stamina cost to jumping in combat in pvp, strong and high enough that your stamina pool will be depleted after 3 jumps.

2) remove 70% of the damage And Defenses from both sorcerers and wardens in pvp.

3) allow the invisibility of nightblades to be a "Toggle" on / off
also remove the "eye" from sneak and no longer allow to be pulled out of stealth, no longer pulled out of sneak, and no longer pulled out of invisibility.

4) Give nightblades 50% Faster sneak speeds then what is present just like it was in 2014 and if pulled out of sneak then allow us to still maintain those fast sneak speeds, and not pulled out of sneak speeds ever, allowing for constant sneak speeds.

5) make Tank builds have ZERO Damage
and completely remove animation cancleing.

axi

ealdwin wrote: »

1. That would defeat the point of PBAoE abilities and also hurt their functionality in PVE, so big no here.
2. Is there enough of a problem with doge-roll into cloak to warrant this? There are already counters to cloak/invisibility available. Disagree here as well.
3. Healing could be looked at, but not this way. I'll detail more below.
4. Yeah, Streak could be looked at. Not sure of a solution, seeing as I don't want to see the skill straight up ruined, but warrants a conversation.
5. Heavy Attacks rely on specific sets in order to achieve their damage and are a perfectly reasonable play-style. They're different and rare enough that they don't seem to be too big an issue, so disagree as well here.

Healing
The problem with healing right now is that its power scaling goes hand in hand with damage power scaling. My proposed solution would go as follows:

1. Heals no longer scale from Spell/Weapon Damage, just Max Magicka/Stamina
(Damage scaling can be left alone for now, this just focuses on healing)

2. Decrease the potency of all heals by 10-15%.
(By all heals, I mean all skills whereby pressing X and spending Y resources you give/gain a numerical A health. Heals based on % damage done are not included here).

3. Increase the potency of all sources of % Healing Done by 10-20%.
(The amount required to supplement for blanket nerf to heals)

This way, there becomes specific build criteria that are almost required in order to get max healing power. It still leaves reasonable healing power for self-survival in PVE and PVP when solo, but requires a little more specific building for stronger healing. (For instance, Powered on a back bar weapon might be desirable for stronger back bar heals.)

1. Can You show me a rule saying that every AoE needs to be point blank? Adding target requirement to the strongest AoEs is just a way to balance their strengh and those 2 specific AoE abilities are clearly stronger then the rest that is why You see them being brainlesly spammed. And no it wouldnt affect PvE. You would spam that abilities at mobs same as You're doing right now. Do You have problems in PvE with using spammable abilities? Because they have the same requirement.
2. Yes there is right now enough of a problem to warrant this. And the argument with counters to cloak is as vague as argument with PBAoE. Yes there are counters to cloak but nb also have counters to those counters and to even use those first counters You're required to slot and actively use specific expensive abilities that last for short time period or use specific potions which basically means You put Yourself already at disadventage by not using preferable potion or ability. Is nb required to do the same against others? Is there any other skill in the game where You need to actively use something specifically just against that 1 ability? There is huge imbalance right now between stealth playstyle and counters to it. Stamblade right now is the highest dmg output class with huge burst in PvP and on its own it's not an issue but the easiness of disengaging from fights is completly not justifying the amount of dmg this class can do atm. There is no risk tied to the stealth playstyle on stamblade especially in BGs. Roll dodge into cloak when performed succesfully is hands down the most effective defense combo in the game and when combined with shade is just out of the limits.
3. Those ideas mentioned by You are really bad , especially the one with scaling heals from max magicka/stamina. That would be basically buff to already strong sorcs with healing pets because he builds up for high magicka anyway. Also scaling heals from max mag/stam would just make healbots even stronger because they wouldn't need spell dmg at all to build high heals. And decreasing all heals accros the board by 10-15% would would cause further imbalance. There are some setups that would barely feel it and setups that would be demoolished by that change.
4. It's funny that for cloak You have an argument "but there are counters" but You see the need to look at streak where basically the same argument can be used. Double standards are pretty ironic.
5. Every setup requires something specific in order to achieve something specific. By that logic if You would need to slot 2 specific sets to get guaranteed 1 shot on everyone it would be fine because it requires "something specific" and it's "different". Heavy attack setups are far from fine. 15k free dmg dmg with undodgable heavy attack is far from fine.

Larcomar

Agree with a lot of what others hav said

1. Give target requirement to jabs and whirling blades so to cast them You'll need to have target on Your screen and in other case You wont be able to use them same same like with basically every other spammable ability.

- AOE spammlables are tuned significantly lower than single target spammables. The whole pt of them is to target an area. Feels like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I don't think theyre overpowered but if there's evidence, tune them down a bit, don't throw the baby out with the bath water

2. Either give roll dodge a penatly that for 1-2 seconds after succesfully performing it You cannot enter stealth/invisibility or make cloak cost more for 1-2 seconds after succesfull dodge roll.

- Yeah Id prob agree on this one. Its pretty ridiculous right now. The existing counters to cloak just don't cut it, so you build tanky to avoid ganks, and just ignore nightblades. Playing hide and seek with them isn't worth it when they can shade away, switch to bow bb, roll and go straight into invis with major exped.

3. Major overhaul of healing. Every heal that can heal both the user or/and the ally should be redesigned to never heal both parties for the same amount but to have significantly lower value either for ally or for a user.

- I wouldn't want to touch healing per se; but there is a problem with cross healing. It's not just ball groups, it's little mini teams all running corss heals on each other. They're all over the place now. And pretty unkillable. The on thing I would say is the same rules have to apply to everyone. The ban on cross healing between solos was a disaster for balance; it just meant balsl wiped everyone to the point you just left when you saw an organised group.

4. Do something with the streak. Undodgable , uinblockable stun in that ability that applies in whole streaking area is just way too much.

- I think people oveestimate streak; it's really not as good as they make out, largely because it put you behind your target. It is strong as an escape mechanism though. I wouldn't it changed too much - it's key to sorc identify. But maybe they could make it so it only stuns if its targeted on a player - but then puts you directly in front of them; but doesn't stun if targeted at the aether, ie used for mobility. In short, targeted - stuns like streak, untargeted - works like BOL if that makes sense

5. Reduce the damage of heavy attack builds in PvP. 15k dmg from 1 heavy attack is a bit silly considering it's free to cast and undodgable when combined with lightning/resto staff.

- I really don't see this as a problem. To get to 15k heavy attacks, you have to build incredibly specifically. You need both undaunted sets, a maelstrom staff, and a person willing to stand still in your wall of elements. While you wind up all your different sets, which, ofc now only proc one gcd after you are already in combat. Add in that you have zero defence and not much of anything else, it's not just a glass cannon that will melt in about a second, it's a one trick pony glass cannon hanging a large sign over its head saying "hit me". I know. I've tried it. It's incredibly niche, really not a problem and if you're gonna nerf that there are alot more egregious - and easy to trigger - glass cannon builds you should do first.

master_vanargand

My wish is to prevent stacking of Regeneration (Rapid Regeneration and Radiating Regeneration) in PvP.
Ballgroup stacks 12 Radiating Regenerations and becomes invincible.
Fix this stupid game balance.

axi

Larcomar wrote: »

Agree with a lot of what others hav said

1. Give target requirement to jabs and whirling blades so to cast them You'll need to have target on Your screen and in other case You wont be able to use them same same like with basically every other spammable ability.

- AOE spammlables are tuned significantly lower than single target spammables. The whole pt of them is to target an area. Feels like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I don't think theyre overpowered but if there's evidence, tune them down a bit, don't throw the baby out with the bath water

2. Either give roll dodge a penatly that for 1-2 seconds after succesfully performing it You cannot enter stealth/invisibility or make cloak cost more for 1-2 seconds after succesfull dodge roll.

- Yeah Id prob agree on this one. Its pretty ridiculous right now. The existing counters to cloak just don't cut it, so you build tanky to avoid ganks, and just ignore nightblades. Playing hide and seek with them isn't worth it when they can shade away, switch to bow bb, roll and go straight into invis with major exped.

3. Major overhaul of healing. Every heal that can heal both the user or/and the ally should be redesigned to never heal both parties for the same amount but to have significantly lower value either for ally or for a user.

- I wouldn't want to touch healing per se; but there is a problem with cross healing. It's not just ball groups, it's little mini teams all running corss heals on each other. They're all over the place now. And pretty unkillable. The on thing I would say is the same rules have to apply to everyone. The ban on cross healing between solos was a disaster for balance; it just meant balsl wiped everyone to the point you just left when you saw an organised group.

4. Do something with the streak. Undodgable , uinblockable stun in that ability that applies in whole streaking area is just way too much.

- I think people oveestimate streak; it's really not as good as they make out, largely because it put you behind your target. It is strong as an escape mechanism though. I wouldn't it changed too much - it's key to sorc identify. But maybe they could make it so it only stuns if its targeted on a player - but then puts you directly in front of them; but doesn't stun if targeted at the aether, ie used for mobility. In short, targeted - stuns like streak, untargeted - works like BOL if that makes sense

5. Reduce the damage of heavy attack builds in PvP. 15k dmg from 1 heavy attack is a bit silly considering it's free to cast and undodgable when combined with lightning/resto staff.

- I really don't see this as a problem. To get to 15k heavy attacks, you have to build incredibly specifically. You need both undaunted sets, a maelstrom staff, and a person willing to stand still in your wall of elements. While you wind up all your different sets, which, ofc now only proc one gcd after you are already in combat. Add in that you have zero defence and not much of anything else, it's not just a glass cannon that will melt in about a second, it's a one trick pony glass cannon hanging a large sign over its head saying "hit me". I know. I've tried it. It's incredibly niche, really not a problem and if you're gonna nerf that there are alot more egregious - and easy to trigger - glass cannon builds you should do first.

1.When it comes to jabs they actually have higher tooltip then other single target spammables and when it comes to whirling blades thanks to multiple diual wield passives and execute compotent that ability also hits stronger then many single target spammables. It's no coincidence I called out those 2 specific abilities. in PvP they hit as hard or even harder then single target spammable abilities while being point blank AoE and to be honest they are being used way more often against one enemy then against multiple ones.
3. Problem with healing is that You need just 1-2 healing skills on Your bar and you're already full blown healer and the rest can be just whatever You want so it's super easy to be a healer=DD or healer+tank. Especially that second option is problematic. It's especially obvious in BGs when 1 team have a healbot. Splitting heals into self heals and ally heals would increase the amount of abilities that needs to be slotted to be recognised as a healer and the level of awarness when using them. There would be no longer possibility to just spam 1-2 skills and keep everyone including Yourself alive.
4. Put You behind the target? You do realise You can do quick 180 degree turn when streaking and end up facing the target immidiaterly after streak. Like turning around is not some 200 IQ move. Streak is strong as an escape tool , gap closing tool and part of offensive combo. Large AoE undodgable , unblockable stun is just way to much when tied to streak.
5. I already said that argument about building specifically is not a strong argument and by no means justifies amount of dmg heavy attack setups can do. If I would have to build specifically to one shot everyone would one shotting everyone be suddenly justified? You dont need person "standing still in Your wall" , You just need to apply off balance which basically means casting blockade with shock dmg trait and off balance is immidiately triggered.. Also even without off balance on enemy You can still deal lots of dmg in that setup. Minimum ZoS could do is making empower to once again buff only light attack dmg but that still could not be enough. If You think that heavy attack setups have zero defense then think twice. Looks to me like You havn't met real heavy attack setups yet. They can easily keep a level of defense of other setups.

Larcomar

"1.When it comes to jabs they actually have higher tooltip then other single target spammables and when it comes to whirling blades thanks to multiple diual wield passives and execute compotent that ability also hits stronger then many single target spammables. It's no coincidence I called out those 2 specific abilities. in PvP they hit as hard or even harder then single target spammable abilities while being point blank AoE and to be honest they are being used way more often against one enemy then against multiple ones."

- I'm not sure they do, but then, like I said, if there's evidence they're getting too high, Zos just need to tune them down a bit. Not throw the baby out with the bath water...

"3. Problem with healing is that You need just 1-2 healing skills on Your bar and you're already full blown healer and the rest can be just whatever You want so it's super easy to be a healer=DD or healer+tank. Especially that second option is problematic. It's especially obvious in BGs when 1 team have a healbot. Splitting heals into self heals and ally heals would increase the amount of abilities that needs to be slotted to be recognised as a healer and the level of awarness when using them. There would be no longer possibility to just spam 1-2 skills and keep everyone including Yourself alive."

- Maybe. I don't disagree, it just seems easier to me to tackle cross healing - properly - rather than do a sort of fundamental class / skill design. I mean, they've already got the code from the tests...

"5. Put You behind the target? You do realise You can do quick 180 degree turn when streaking and end up facing the target immidiaterly after streak. Like turning around is not some 200 IQ move. Streak is strong as an escape tool , gap closing tool and part of offensive combo. Large AoE undodgable , unblockable stun is just way to much when tied to streak."

- I'm guessing you don't have a lot of experience playing sorc. Go try it, and tell me how it feels. Like I say, I can see the case for tweaking it a bit, but I don't think it needs alot of tinkering.

"6. I already said that argument about building specifically is not a strong argument... "

- I kind of stopped reading here. You might think that but just... announcing that something isn't a strong argument doesn't make it so. I'm afraid I and others just disagree with you on this one. I've played these sorts of builds; they're great against potatos, not much else.

Anyway, you obviously have your views. I can see some merit in some of this stuff but I think we'll just have to agree to dfisagree on the rest. TBh I think there are more pressing priorities, not least, performance.

- edited to put your in quote marks. I'm quoting not advocatign this stuff!

Daffen

axi wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

Agree with a lot of what others hav said

1. Give target requirement to jabs and whirling blades so to cast them You'll need to have target on Your screen and in other case You wont be able to use them same same like with basically every other spammable ability.

- AOE spammlables are tuned significantly lower than single target spammables. The whole pt of them is to target an area. Feels like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I don't think theyre overpowered but if there's evidence, tune them down a bit, don't throw the baby out with the bath water

2. Either give roll dodge a penatly that for 1-2 seconds after succesfully performing it You cannot enter stealth/invisibility or make cloak cost more for 1-2 seconds after succesfull dodge roll.

- Yeah Id prob agree on this one. Its pretty ridiculous right now. The existing counters to cloak just don't cut it, so you build tanky to avoid ganks, and just ignore nightblades. Playing hide and seek with them isn't worth it when they can shade away, switch to bow bb, roll and go straight into invis with major exped.

3. Major overhaul of healing. Every heal that can heal both the user or/and the ally should be redesigned to never heal both parties for the same amount but to have significantly lower value either for ally or for a user.

- I wouldn't want to touch healing per se; but there is a problem with cross healing. It's not just ball groups, it's little mini teams all running corss heals on each other. They're all over the place now. And pretty unkillable. The on thing I would say is the same rules have to apply to everyone. The ban on cross healing between solos was a disaster for balance; it just meant balsl wiped everyone to the point you just left when you saw an organised group.

4. Do something with the streak. Undodgable , uinblockable stun in that ability that applies in whole streaking area is just way too much.

- I think people oveestimate streak; it's really not as good as they make out, largely because it put you behind your target. It is strong as an escape mechanism though. I wouldn't it changed too much - it's key to sorc identify. But maybe they could make it so it only stuns if its targeted on a player - but then puts you directly in front of them; but doesn't stun if targeted at the aether, ie used for mobility. In short, targeted - stuns like streak, untargeted - works like BOL if that makes sense

5. Reduce the damage of heavy attack builds in PvP. 15k dmg from 1 heavy attack is a bit silly considering it's free to cast and undodgable when combined with lightning/resto staff.

- I really don't see this as a problem. To get to 15k heavy attacks, you have to build incredibly specifically. You need both undaunted sets, a maelstrom staff, and a person willing to stand still in your wall of elements. While you wind up all your different sets, which, ofc now only proc one gcd after you are already in combat. Add in that you have zero defence and not much of anything else, it's not just a glass cannon that will melt in about a second, it's a one trick pony glass cannon hanging a large sign over its head saying "hit me". I know. I've tried it. It's incredibly niche, really not a problem and if you're gonna nerf that there are alot more egregious - and easy to trigger - glass cannon builds you should do first.

1.When it comes to jabs they actually have higher tooltip then other single target spammables and when it comes to whirling blades thanks to multiple diual wield passives and execute compotent that ability also hits stronger then many single target spammables. It's no coincidence I called out those 2 specific abilities. in PvP they hit as hard or even harder then single target spammable abilities while being point blank AoE and to be honest they are being used way more often against one enemy then against multiple ones.
3. Problem with healing is that You need just 1-2 healing skills on Your bar and you're already full blown healer and the rest can be just whatever You want so it's super easy to be a healer=DD or healer+tank. Especially that second option is problematic. It's especially obvious in BGs when 1 team have a healbot. Splitting heals into self heals and ally heals would increase the amount of abilities that needs to be slotted to be recognised as a healer and the level of awarness when using them. There would be no longer possibility to just spam 1-2 skills and keep everyone including Yourself alive.
4. Put You behind the target? You do realise You can do quick 180 degree turn when streaking and end up facing the target immidiaterly after streak. Like turning around is not some 200 IQ move. Streak is strong as an escape tool , gap closing tool and part of offensive combo. Large AoE undodgable , unblockable stun is just way to much when tied to streak.
5. I already said that argument about building specifically is not a strong argument and by no means justifies amount of dmg heavy attack setups can do. If I would have to build specifically to one shot everyone would one shotting everyone be suddenly justified? You dont need person "standing still in Your wall" , You just need to apply off balance which basically means casting blockade with shock dmg trait and off balance is immidiately triggered.. Also even without off balance on enemy You can still deal lots of dmg in that setup. Minimum ZoS could do is making empower to once again buff only light attack dmg but that still could not be enough. If You think that heavy attack setups have zero defense then think twice. Looks to me like You havn't met real heavy attack setups yet. They can easily keep a level of defense of other setups.

1. Jabs damage tooltip is higher because of major evasion reducing the damage by 20%. Stamina players basically take 0 damage from jabs. Magicka players have some other problems. It also locks down the templar to walk speed meaning if you react fast enough you should only get hit by 1-2 jabs. Toppling charge is easy to block, race against time and run through them casting jabs since their turning is a bit slow.

2. Nightblades wouldnt have to roll-dodge into cloak if it wasnt bugged. Single target skills often pull nightblades out of stealth meaning if they dont roll dodge they get hit as they enter stealth and get revealed. The cp passive for increased detect radius is enough to spot nightblades that do not have reduce stealth detect. You just need to stay ontop of them. Detect pots counter their entire class, they are mostly squishy and if they cant enter stealth they need to roll dodge alot more and probably run out of stamina.

3. Healing is overtuned, but if its a 4v4 and both teams have 1 healer, then the team that either focuses healer, or burst down the entire team with ultimates will win. Sure the healers are tanky, but they wont survive the pressure from 3 good players trying to kill him. Just kill the healer first, and if your teammates dont focus healer then expect your team to lose.

4. Okay lets say you get streaked, now what do the sorc do? You most likely got hit by curse, maybe 1 spammable, endless fury and overload light attack. Thats around 20k damage if its a high damage sorc. Now you are stunned from streak and sorc is about to hit you with a crystal fragment (procced) to finnish you. What does almost everyone do? They break free and try to heal before they get hit by frags and die. The solution is to break free and immediately roll dodge. Crystal frags have minimum travel time, this gives you enough time after getting stunned to break free and roll dodge before getting hit. But what about meteor - > streak. Just eat it, if you are playing a proper build you wont die to that if you break free fast enough and roll dodge. Just keep hots and buffs up, block some skills or roll dodge and sorcs are no problem anymore.

To counter escape tool, just let them run if they want to they are obviously scared. If you dont like that, then counter them. Gap close if its possible on your build or build for movement speed. If you are medium armror its easy to hit 200% speed cap, just run after them. The magicka scaling on streak is big and they will most likely dark deal after streaking some, giving you time to catch up.

5. Heavy attack builds are indeed strong, but i havent met a single good guy using them as they usually get one-two shot. My best tip is to try to apply as much pressure while keeping your heals up. The only class that can remain defensive with 2 offensive sets without getting one shot is a magsorc or magnecro, magdk die if they dont block your attacks. Magsorc has shields, try to burst them when they are not up. Magnecro is just tanky and have great heals but its possible to pressure them down.

TL;DR Adapt and git gud.

axi

Daffen wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

Agree with a lot of what others hav said

1. Give target requirement to jabs and whirling blades so to cast them You'll need to have target on Your screen and in other case You wont be able to use them same same like with basically every other spammable ability.

- AOE spammlables are tuned significantly lower than single target spammables. The whole pt of them is to target an area. Feels like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I don't think theyre overpowered but if there's evidence, tune them down a bit, don't throw the baby out with the bath water

2. Either give roll dodge a penatly that for 1-2 seconds after succesfully performing it You cannot enter stealth/invisibility or make cloak cost more for 1-2 seconds after succesfull dodge roll.

- Yeah Id prob agree on this one. Its pretty ridiculous right now. The existing counters to cloak just don't cut it, so you build tanky to avoid ganks, and just ignore nightblades. Playing hide and seek with them isn't worth it when they can shade away, switch to bow bb, roll and go straight into invis with major exped.

3. Major overhaul of healing. Every heal that can heal both the user or/and the ally should be redesigned to never heal both parties for the same amount but to have significantly lower value either for ally or for a user.

- I wouldn't want to touch healing per se; but there is a problem with cross healing. It's not just ball groups, it's little mini teams all running corss heals on each other. They're all over the place now. And pretty unkillable. The on thing I would say is the same rules have to apply to everyone. The ban on cross healing between solos was a disaster for balance; it just meant balsl wiped everyone to the point you just left when you saw an organised group.

4. Do something with the streak. Undodgable , uinblockable stun in that ability that applies in whole streaking area is just way too much.

- I think people oveestimate streak; it's really not as good as they make out, largely because it put you behind your target. It is strong as an escape mechanism though. I wouldn't it changed too much - it's key to sorc identify. But maybe they could make it so it only stuns if its targeted on a player - but then puts you directly in front of them; but doesn't stun if targeted at the aether, ie used for mobility. In short, targeted - stuns like streak, untargeted - works like BOL if that makes sense

5. Reduce the damage of heavy attack builds in PvP. 15k dmg from 1 heavy attack is a bit silly considering it's free to cast and undodgable when combined with lightning/resto staff.

- I really don't see this as a problem. To get to 15k heavy attacks, you have to build incredibly specifically. You need both undaunted sets, a maelstrom staff, and a person willing to stand still in your wall of elements. While you wind up all your different sets, which, ofc now only proc one gcd after you are already in combat. Add in that you have zero defence and not much of anything else, it's not just a glass cannon that will melt in about a second, it's a one trick pony glass cannon hanging a large sign over its head saying "hit me". I know. I've tried it. It's incredibly niche, really not a problem and if you're gonna nerf that there are alot more egregious - and easy to trigger - glass cannon builds you should do first.

1.When it comes to jabs they actually have higher tooltip then other single target spammables and when it comes to whirling blades thanks to multiple diual wield passives and execute compotent that ability also hits stronger then many single target spammables. It's no coincidence I called out those 2 specific abilities. in PvP they hit as hard or even harder then single target spammable abilities while being point blank AoE and to be honest they are being used way more often against one enemy then against multiple ones.
3. Problem with healing is that You need just 1-2 healing skills on Your bar and you're already full blown healer and the rest can be just whatever You want so it's super easy to be a healer=DD or healer+tank. Especially that second option is problematic. It's especially obvious in BGs when 1 team have a healbot. Splitting heals into self heals and ally heals would increase the amount of abilities that needs to be slotted to be recognised as a healer and the level of awarness when using them. There would be no longer possibility to just spam 1-2 skills and keep everyone including Yourself alive.
4. Put You behind the target? You do realise You can do quick 180 degree turn when streaking and end up facing the target immidiaterly after streak. Like turning around is not some 200 IQ move. Streak is strong as an escape tool , gap closing tool and part of offensive combo. Large AoE undodgable , unblockable stun is just way to much when tied to streak.
5. I already said that argument about building specifically is not a strong argument and by no means justifies amount of dmg heavy attack setups can do. If I would have to build specifically to one shot everyone would one shotting everyone be suddenly justified? You dont need person "standing still in Your wall" , You just need to apply off balance which basically means casting blockade with shock dmg trait and off balance is immidiately triggered.. Also even without off balance on enemy You can still deal lots of dmg in that setup. Minimum ZoS could do is making empower to once again buff only light attack dmg but that still could not be enough. If You think that heavy attack setups have zero defense then think twice. Looks to me like You havn't met real heavy attack setups yet. They can easily keep a level of defense of other setups.

1. Jabs damage tooltip is higher because of major evasion reducing the damage by 20%. Stamina players basically take 0 damage from jabs. Magicka players have some other problems. It also locks down the templar to walk speed meaning if you react fast enough you should only get hit by 1-2 jabs. Toppling charge is easy to block, race against time and run through them casting jabs since their turning is a bit slow.

2. Nightblades wouldnt have to roll-dodge into cloak if it wasnt bugged. Single target skills often pull nightblades out of stealth meaning if they dont roll dodge they get hit as they enter stealth and get revealed. The cp passive for increased detect radius is enough to spot nightblades that do not have reduce stealth detect. You just need to stay ontop of them. Detect pots counter their entire class, they are mostly squishy and if they cant enter stealth they need to roll dodge alot more and probably run out of stamina.

3. Healing is overtuned, but if its a 4v4 and both teams have 1 healer, then the team that either focuses healer, or burst down the entire team with ultimates will win. Sure the healers are tanky, but they wont survive the pressure from 3 good players trying to kill him. Just kill the healer first, and if your teammates dont focus healer then expect your team to lose.

4. Okay lets say you get streaked, now what do the sorc do? You most likely got hit by curse, maybe 1 spammable, endless fury and overload light attack. Thats around 20k damage if its a high damage sorc. Now you are stunned from streak and sorc is about to hit you with a crystal fragment (procced) to finnish you. What does almost everyone do? They break free and try to heal before they get hit by frags and die. The solution is to break free and immediately roll dodge. Crystal frags have minimum travel time, this gives you enough time after getting stunned to break free and roll dodge before getting hit. But what about meteor - > streak. Just eat it, if you are playing a proper build you wont die to that if you break free fast enough and roll dodge. Just keep hots and buffs up, block some skills or roll dodge and sorcs are no problem anymore.

To counter escape tool, just let them run if they want to they are obviously scared. If you dont like that, then counter them. Gap close if its possible on your build or build for movement speed. If you are medium armror its easy to hit 200% speed cap, just run after them. The magicka scaling on streak is big and they will most likely dark deal after streaking some, giving you time to catch up.

5. Heavy attack builds are indeed strong, but i havent met a single good guy using them as they usually get one-two shot. My best tip is to try to apply as much pressure while keeping your heals up. The only class that can remain defensive with 2 offensive sets without getting one shot is a magsorc or magnecro, magdk die if they dont block your attacks. Magsorc has shields, try to burst them when they are not up. Magnecro is just tanky and have great heals but its possible to pressure them down.

TL;DR Adapt and git gud.

1. Complete false. Even before major evasion was added to the game jabs had tooltip higher then other spammables. Not every stamina players runs with source of major evasion and it's a lie to say that major evasion makes jabs uneffective source of dmg. Minus 20% still means 80% of dmg goes through and that is far from zero which basically means jabs will hit someone with major evasion for similar value as single target spammable. Yes You're moving slower while casting jabs but that is not an issue considering range of the ability and the fact it applies snare to the enemy. I dont know why You're bringing topling charge to the discussion but good luck blocking every topling charge casted at You or good luck sprinting and not getting stun from tolpling charge. Also You know what block does? Makes You moving slower aka leaves You vulnerable to jabs which eat stamina while blocking like crazy. Great job contradicting your own arguments.

2. Another lie. Nightblades do not roll dodge before cloak because they can be kicked out of cloak by single target abilities. That thing is a occasional bug that happens here and there but is not something that created line of defense for nightblades. Sources of that bug are also regularly fixes. Nightblades dodge roll into cloak because dodge roll gives them advantages of generally avoiding damage plus creating distance (which helps with avoiding AoE dmg that kicks them out of cloak) and when other classes needs to pay for that with increased cost of next roll dodge nightblade can just wait that time in cloak while regaining stamina. Nightblades with bow also gets major expedition after dodge roll making escape in cloak even easier. There is no CP like the one You're mentioning. There is only one reducing the radius You can be detected while sneaking. Please do Your homework before posting. Detect pots are really weak argument used only by people who have little idea of what they're talking about. Not only You need to put Yourself at disadvetgae by not using preferable potion but also nightblade still can have easy time avoiding Your dmg. Certain classes can do bettwer with detect potions then the others but in general dfetect pots are really average at dealing with nightblades and sometimes casn even help nb to defeat You because You.

3. Properly built healers can survive even more then attack from 3-4 players. it's no coincidence most of the matches where every team have decent healer drags for full 15 minutes very often with little kill count.

4. I think You dont understand how disruptive streak is in real combats. it's basically the level of disruption that dark convergence have. Your advices are laughable. Seriously You seem to not have idea what You'rwe talking about. Thanks for telling me to roll dodge captain obvious. Thing is You covered 1 scenario of using streak but in reality there is way more of those scenarios where things are not going the way You imagine in your head. You look at things completly one dimensionaly.

5. Another point another "tips". Like I said above those tips of Yours are useless. Not only that but from reading Your posts it's almost clear You have a little idea of what you're talking about. heavy attack setups really do not have an issue with building resonable levels of defense. Stats that are usefull for defense are still there it's not like they do not have defensive abilities slotted. Funnily enough sometimes thanks for the fact their main source of damage restores resources they can maintain resources for longer then the attacker.

TL:DR First get some facts straight and only then post stuff.

axi

Larcomar wrote: »

"1.When it comes to jabs they actually have higher tooltip then other single target spammables and when it comes to whirling blades thanks to multiple diual wield passives and execute compotent that ability also hits stronger then many single target spammables. It's no coincidence I called out those 2 specific abilities. in PvP they hit as hard or even harder then single target spammable abilities while being point blank AoE and to be honest they are being used way more often against one enemy then against multiple ones."

- I'm not sure they do, but then, like I said, if there's evidence they're getting too high, Zos just need to tune them down a bit. Not throw the baby out with the bath water...

"3. Problem with healing is that You need just 1-2 healing skills on Your bar and you're already full blown healer and the rest can be just whatever You want so it's super easy to be a healer=DD or healer+tank. Especially that second option is problematic. It's especially obvious in BGs when 1 team have a healbot. Splitting heals into self heals and ally heals would increase the amount of abilities that needs to be slotted to be recognised as a healer and the level of awarness when using them. There would be no longer possibility to just spam 1-2 skills and keep everyone including Yourself alive."

- Maybe. I don't disagree, it just seems easier to me to tackle cross healing - properly - rather than do a sort of fundamental class / skill design. I mean, they've already got the code from the tests...

"5. Put You behind the target? You do realise You can do quick 180 degree turn when streaking and end up facing the target immidiaterly after streak. Like turning around is not some 200 IQ move. Streak is strong as an escape tool , gap closing tool and part of offensive combo. Large AoE undodgable , unblockable stun is just way to much when tied to streak."

- I'm guessing you don't have a lot of experience playing sorc. Go try it, and tell me how it feels. Like I say, I can see the case for tweaking it a bit, but I don't think it needs alot of tinkering.

"6. I already said that argument about building specifically is not a strong argument... "

- I kind of stopped reading here. You might think that but just... announcing that something isn't a strong argument doesn't make it so. I'm afraid I and others just disagree with you on this one. I've played these sorts of builds; they're great against potatos, not much else.

Anyway, you obviously have your views. I can see some merit in some of this stuff but I think we'll just have to agree to dfisagree on the rest. TBh I think there are more pressing priorities, not least, performance.

- edited to put your in quote marks. I'm quoting not advocatign this stuff!

1. Problem is that tuning dmg of these abilities down will hurt PvE a lot whichj will be basically throwing baby out with bath water.
3. thing is Your ideas do not tackle crosshealing but healing in general creating imbalances.
5. Oh I have a lot of experience playing a sorc. That is why it's so radicolous argument for me to say that after streak You end up behind the target. I would never even imagine this being an issue for anyone. Like seriously turning around is not that hard.
6. Well if You would read full comment You would know why Your argumentation wasn't a strong argument. So You're saying that potatoes are playing in high MMR matches where still heavy attack builds are present?

Iriidius

1. Jabs definitely doesnt deal 0 damage to stamina plaers. I had duells against templars where i activated shield ulti, immediately runned out of jabs und spammed heal skills and still died before the shield ulti ended. Atm there are so many AOEs that you die almost as fast while dodging as without. But I dont think requiring a target is the right solution because the auto aim system in ESO is bad.
2. If you nerf healing for everyone the players with too strong healing will still have good healing and the players who already had too low healing will have even less healing. Most of my deads are because i cant outheal the unavoidable damage of some players even after block.
4. Streak stun is defintitely a problem. It ignores block, dodge, invisibilit and the area is too big to run to the side even if you react very fast, so there is almost no counter. If break free doesnt work immediately the sorc can use a burst combo and you have no chance to avoid it. If you arent tanky you are dead. It is also often used by zerglings so their friends can also ignore your defense and to prevent you from running away outnumbered.

wazzz56

@axi ummm....there certainly is a detection radius increase cp.......piercing gaze.....

axi

wazzz56 wrote: »

@axi ummm....there certainly is a detection radius increase cp.......piercing gaze.....

Have You tested that passive? I really reccomend You to do so.

Beardimus

axi wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

Agree with a lot of what others hav said

1. Give target requirement to jabs and whirling blades so to cast them You'll need to have target on Your screen and in other case You wont be able to use them same same like with basically every other spammable ability.

- AOE spammlables are tuned significantly lower than single target spammables. The whole pt of them is to target an area. Feels like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I don't think theyre overpowered but if there's evidence, tune them down a bit, don't throw the baby out with the bath water

2. Either give roll dodge a penatly that for 1-2 seconds after succesfully performing it You cannot enter stealth/invisibility or make cloak cost more for 1-2 seconds after succesfull dodge roll.

- Yeah Id prob agree on this one. Its pretty ridiculous right now. The existing counters to cloak just don't cut it, so you build tanky to avoid ganks, and just ignore nightblades. Playing hide and seek with them isn't worth it when they can shade away, switch to bow bb, roll and go straight into invis with major exped.

3. Major overhaul of healing. Every heal that can heal both the user or/and the ally should be redesigned to never heal both parties for the same amount but to have significantly lower value either for ally or for a user.

- I wouldn't want to touch healing per se; but there is a problem with cross healing. It's not just ball groups, it's little mini teams all running corss heals on each other. They're all over the place now. And pretty unkillable. The on thing I would say is the same rules have to apply to everyone. The ban on cross healing between solos was a disaster for balance; it just meant balsl wiped everyone to the point you just left when you saw an organised group.

4. Do something with the streak. Undodgable , uinblockable stun in that ability that applies in whole streaking area is just way too much.

- I think people oveestimate streak; it's really not as good as they make out, largely because it put you behind your target. It is strong as an escape mechanism though. I wouldn't it changed too much - it's key to sorc identify. But maybe they could make it so it only stuns if its targeted on a player - but then puts you directly in front of them; but doesn't stun if targeted at the aether, ie used for mobility. In short, targeted - stuns like streak, untargeted - works like BOL if that makes sense

5. Reduce the damage of heavy attack builds in PvP. 15k dmg from 1 heavy attack is a bit silly considering it's free to cast and undodgable when combined with lightning/resto staff.

- I really don't see this as a problem. To get to 15k heavy attacks, you have to build incredibly specifically. You need both undaunted sets, a maelstrom staff, and a person willing to stand still in your wall of elements. While you wind up all your different sets, which, ofc now only proc one gcd after you are already in combat. Add in that you have zero defence and not much of anything else, it's not just a glass cannon that will melt in about a second, it's a one trick pony glass cannon hanging a large sign over its head saying "hit me". I know. I've tried it. It's incredibly niche, really not a problem and if you're gonna nerf that there are alot more egregious - and easy to trigger - glass cannon builds you should do first.

1.When it comes to jabs they actually have higher tooltip then other single target spammables and when it comes to whirling blades thanks to multiple diual wield passives and execute compotent that ability also hits stronger then many single target spammables. It's no coincidence I called out those 2 specific abilities. in PvP they hit as hard or even harder then single target spammable abilities while being point blank AoE and to be honest they are being used way more often against one enemy then against multiple ones.
3. Problem with healing is that You need just 1-2 healing skills on Your bar and you're already full blown healer and the rest can be just whatever You want so it's super easy to be a healer=DD or healer+tank. Especially that second option is problematic. It's especially obvious in BGs when 1 team have a healbot. Splitting heals into self heals and ally heals would increase the amount of abilities that needs to be slotted to be recognised as a healer and the level of awarness when using them. There would be no longer possibility to just spam 1-2 skills and keep everyone including Yourself alive.
4. Put You behind the target? You do realise You can do quick 180 degree turn when streaking and end up facing the target immidiaterly after streak. Like turning around is not some 200 IQ move. Streak is strong as an escape tool , gap closing tool and part of offensive combo. Large AoE undodgable , unblockable stun is just way to much when tied to streak.
5. I already said that argument about building specifically is not a strong argument and by no means justifies amount of dmg heavy attack setups can do. If I would have to build specifically to one shot everyone would one shotting everyone be suddenly justified? You dont need person "standing still in Your wall" , You just need to apply off balance which basically means casting blockade with shock dmg trait and off balance is immidiately triggered.. Also even without off balance on enemy You can still deal lots of dmg in that setup. Minimum ZoS could do is making empower to once again buff only light attack dmg but that still could not be enough. If You think that heavy attack setups have zero defense then think twice. Looks to me like You havn't met real heavy attack setups yet. They can easily keep a level of defense of other setups.

4. QUICK 180 degree turn, have you played on Console? Doesn't feel like it..

As for gap closing, people outsprint the range...

wazzz56

axi wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

@axi ummm....there certainly is a detection radius increase cp.......piercing gaze.....

Have You tested that passive? I really reccomend You to do so.

@axi you stated there was no such passive....very confidently stated, mind you...I just pointed out that there was...won't test it myself..because I don't care tbh...lol

MEBengalsFan2001

axi wrote: »

1. Give target requirement to jabs and whirling blades so to cast them You'll need to have target on Your screen and in other case You wont be able to use them same same like with basically every other spammable ability.
2. Either give roll dodge a penatly that for 1-2 seconds after succesfully performing it You cannot enter stealth/invisibility or make cloak cost more for 1-2 seconds after succesfull dodge roll.
3. Major overhaul of healing. Every heal that can heal both the user or/and the ally should be redesigned to never heal both parties for the same amount but to have significantly lower value either for ally or for a user.
4. Do something with the streak. Undodgable , uinblockable stun in that ability that applies in whole streaking area is just way too much.
5. Reduce the damage of heavy attack builds in PvP. 15k dmg from 1 heavy attack is a bit silly considering it's free to cast and undodgable when combined with lightning/resto staff.

In addition to the current adjustments from Battle Spirit, there should be two additional adjustments based on a player role and their armor value.

Tank Role Adjustments:

• Deals 10% less damage
• 10% increase to health recovery and healing received

Healer Role Adjustments:

• Deals 10% less damage
• 10% increase to healing out and 10% increase to magika and stamina recovery

Damage Dealer Adjustments:

• Battle Spirit current adjustments already impact damage dealers perfectly from my experience

Next up is armor value adjustment

Armor Value Less than 15K (these players are very easily targeted and killed and need a way to fight back with higher damage output, true glass cannons)

• Increase Weapon and Spell damage by 5%
• Increase Off. Pen by 1500

Armor Value between 15K and 21K (balanced damage dealer/healer and should get some bonus but not like the light armor user)

• Increase Off. Pen by 500
• Increase weapon and spell damage by 1%

Armor Value over 21K

• Decrease Off Pen 1500
• Decrease Weapon and Spell Damage by 5%

The Goal of these changes is to ensure that players who are light based DPS can deal damage to tanks or damage dealers that decide to go around in heavy armor. It also encourages more players to drop heavy armor sets for light or medium armor. These changes also makes tanks more what we expect from tanks and that is dealing less damage while holding it down with higher resistance and health.

MentalxHammer

The only major issue here is the 15k heavy attack build, almost 9k hours in PvP and I’m dying to a dude holding 1 button, this should never happen LOL

divnyi

MentalxHammer wrote: »

The only major issue here is the 15k heavy attack build, almost 9k hours in PvP and I’m dying to a dude holding 1 button, this should never happen LOL

I can assure you that "holding one button" is oversimplification, it still requires to cast a lot, maintain short-term buff states and combine them together. But yeah, it is stronger then it should be.

Amottica

1. Jabs is a narrow conal AoE so it should not require a target. It is also easy to get out of it.
2. Roll dodge already has a penalty. It also does not make sense to add restrictions to such a penalty when those restrictions are not related. Especially since the suggestion is limiting defense for the sake of limiting defense. Should we have restrictions on certain damage skills that do not permit using other damaging skills for a period short period of time?
3. Since we have very little control over targeting heals the suggestion made is not a good idea. It would run healers out of PvP because it would be harder for them to receive a heal.
4. Maybe make streak blockable though I am not sure what unintended issues could come from that.
5. I do not think heavy attacks hit that hard without help from other factors.

aurelius_fx

i don't have 5 wishes yet but here are some

rework older sets, make them less specific (i.e support sets only useful in X scenario in X place at X range that gives a little
willy buff/debuff that could be helpful or not) and less niche to actually be competitive with new ones

give big diminishing returns on stack healing (especially from multiple players) including self heal, make those scenarios of healers outhealing damage dealers really difficult and resource consuming unless the patient actually takes cover or at least holds up block

make bow builds viable, or at least comparable with ranged mag builds

axi

Amottica wrote: »

1. Jabs is a narrow conal AoE so it should not require a target. It is also easy to get out of it.
2. Roll dodge already has a penalty. It also does not make sense to add restrictions to such a penalty when those restrictions are not related. Especially since the suggestion is limiting defense for the sake of limiting defense. Should we have restrictions on certain damage skills that do not permit using other damaging skills for a period short period of time?
3. Since we have very little control over targeting heals the suggestion made is not a good idea. It would run healers out of PvP because it would be harder for them to receive a heal.
4. Maybe make streak blockable though I am not sure what unintended issues could come from that.
5. I do not think heavy attacks hit that hard without help from other factors.

1. Narrow? 8x6 meters AoE is narrow? It's long enough to easily reach the enemy and it's not like You cannot move Your camera on the sides if enemy tries to step out of it. Wont even mention the fact it can very often get You through obstables. Amount of dmg combined with easiness of usage should require additional drawbacks other then channel. And for the argument "it's easy to get out" it's highly situational so that argument is kinda vague.
2. Oh in terms of nightblades those restrictions are related. Every other class needs to deal with roll dodge penatly by having next dodge cost increased. Nightblade can just decide to not deal with it by cloaking and spending penatly time in cloak while also regaining stamina and healing while not taking dmg, something other classes can dream about. It's the strongest defense in the game when it's performed succesfully. This on its own could be fine but with recent changes to nbs amount of dmg output, something needs to be done to balance it out. Creating a little drawback in the dodge roll+cloak combo could be a good start. Yes this suggestion is made to limit nb defense when dodge rolling into cloak. There are actually restrictions blocking Your from using certain skills after being bashed this is just another restriction of that type.
3. Heals right now control themselves. Whoever needs heal the most at any moment will get it. this is why playing healbot is so easy and effective, because You dont need lot of thinking about who and how You want to heal , You can just smash 1-2 buttons and game will do the rest for you. healers would still recive a heal, they would just have to decide which heal to use depends of the situation.
4. Making it blockable could not solve an issue since it would be still a strong stun tied to already strong ability although making it could be good start.
5. That is why I've said about heavy attack builds not heavy attacks on their own. These factors are off balance, empower, and sets that add numeric value to weapon attacks because in terms of resto and lightning staffs they apply to each tick. All those factors are very easily achievable and even when not all 3 are present but 1 or 2 are active still heavy attacks setups can deal lots of dmg with little to none effort.

divnyi

axi wrote: »

It's the strongest defense in the game when it's performed succesfully.

* strongest, except streak
* has counterplay with potions and reveal skills

axi wrote: »

This on its own could be fine but with recent changes to nbs amount of dmg output

There are no recent changes to NBs damage output.

Amottica

axi wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. Jabs is a narrow conal AoE so it should not require a target. It is also easy to get out of it.
2. Roll dodge already has a penalty. It also does not make sense to add restrictions to such a penalty when those restrictions are not related. Especially since the suggestion is limiting defense for the sake of limiting defense. Should we have restrictions on certain damage skills that do not permit using other damaging skills for a period short period of time?
3. Since we have very little control over targeting heals the suggestion made is not a good idea. It would run healers out of PvP because it would be harder for them to receive a heal.
4. Maybe make streak blockable though I am not sure what unintended issues could come from that.
5. I do not think heavy attacks hit that hard without help from other factors.

1. Narrow? 8x6 meters AoE is narrow? It's long enough to easily reach the enemy and it's not like You cannot move Your camera on the sides if enemy tries to step out of it. Wont even mention the fact it can very often get You through obstables. Amount of dmg combined with easiness of usage should require additional drawbacks other then channel. And for the argument "it's easy to get out" it's highly situational so that argument is kinda vague.
2. Oh in terms of nightblades those restrictions are related. Every other class needs to deal with roll dodge penatly by having next dodge cost increased. Nightblade can just decide to not deal with it by cloaking and spending penatly time in cloak while also regaining stamina and healing while not taking dmg, something other classes can dream about. It's the strongest defense in the game when it's performed succesfully. This on its own could be fine but with recent changes to nbs amount of dmg output, something needs to be done to balance it out. Creating a little drawback in the dodge roll+cloak combo could be a good start. Yes this suggestion is made to limit nb defense when dodge rolling into cloak. There are actually restrictions blocking Your from using certain skills after being bashed this is just another restriction of that type.
3. Heals right now control themselves. Whoever needs heal the most at any moment will get it. this is why playing healbot is so easy and effective, because You dont need lot of thinking about who and how You want to heal , You can just smash 1-2 buttons and game will do the rest for you. healers would still recive a heal, they would just have to decide which heal to use depends of the situation.
4. Making it blockable could not solve an issue since it would be still a strong stun tied to already strong ability although making it could be good start.
5. That is why I've said about heavy attack builds not heavy attacks on their own. These factors are off balance, empower, and sets that add numeric value to weapon attacks because in terms of resto and lightning staffs they apply to each tick. All those factors are very easily achievable and even when not all 3 are present but 1 or 2 are active still heavy attacks setups can deal lots of dmg with little to none effort.

1. A doge roll to one side or the other will put the target out of the cone and I have not seen a player able to react fast enough so that the rest of the channel continues to hit me.
2. Actually, magicka classes can dodge roll and then activate a shield so it does relate beyond a NB. There is no president for penalizing any skill because of an unrelated action that occurred prior. None that I can think of.
3. I am fully aware that theals control themselves and since we cannot control it, well, making a multi-target heal into a single target heal or specifically penalizing the healer is a great way to go if we want to reduce the number of healers.
4. Making it lockable would certainly help the issue. It would eliminate the stun and reduce the damage on a skill;l; that already has increased cost with each subsequent use within a short period of time. So it already has a penalty and this would add another hindrance..
5.If the heavy attack builds were overpowered then we would see much more of those builds. That is not the case.

axi

divnyi wrote: »

axi wrote: »

It's the strongest defense in the game when it's performed succesfully.

* strongest, except streak
* has counterplay with potions and reveal skills

axi wrote: »

This on its own could be fine but with recent changes to nbs amount of dmg output

There are no recent changes to NBs damage output.

When it's succesfully performed roll dodge into cloak easily beats streak. Streak wont stop all dmg from incoming. As for the sources of detection we all know by now they're weak and often completly uneffective and sometimes even put the user at disadventage in PvP rather then giving any adventage. ZoS had to add major protection to flare for people to even look at that skill and it's still barely used because of the cost and the fact how easily nbs can deal with it. It is pretty flawed game desing if 1 skill in the game requires whole additional level of optimising Your setup just to have a small chance of dealing with it. Defending cloak with argument about sources of detection is lost battle these days.

Throughout last few patches nb recived small buffs to dmg output and easiness of dealing dmg. Once the major fracture was taken away nb's were complaining they suffer from that but right now thanks for sundered status effect on supprise attack and buffed penetration passive they got their penetration back. Supprise attack also recived easy to apply stun which helps nightblades a lot. Changes that nb can no longer be revealed by AoE DoTS also massively helped them with dealing dmg in PvP. Now they also got weapon dmg buff from grim focus which is better then crit dmg buff was. So yes while not all the changes may be direct buffs to dmg stats still nb recived lots of changes making dealing dmg easier and more effective.

axi

Amottica wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. Jabs is a narrow conal AoE so it should not require a target. It is also easy to get out of it.
2. Roll dodge already has a penalty. It also does not make sense to add restrictions to such a penalty when those restrictions are not related. Especially since the suggestion is limiting defense for the sake of limiting defense. Should we have restrictions on certain damage skills that do not permit using other damaging skills for a period short period of time?
3. Since we have very little control over targeting heals the suggestion made is not a good idea. It would run healers out of PvP because it would be harder for them to receive a heal.
4. Maybe make streak blockable though I am not sure what unintended issues could come from that.
5. I do not think heavy attacks hit that hard without help from other factors.

1. Narrow? 8x6 meters AoE is narrow? It's long enough to easily reach the enemy and it's not like You cannot move Your camera on the sides if enemy tries to step out of it. Wont even mention the fact it can very often get You through obstables. Amount of dmg combined with easiness of usage should require additional drawbacks other then channel. And for the argument "it's easy to get out" it's highly situational so that argument is kinda vague.
2. Oh in terms of nightblades those restrictions are related. Every other class needs to deal with roll dodge penatly by having next dodge cost increased. Nightblade can just decide to not deal with it by cloaking and spending penatly time in cloak while also regaining stamina and healing while not taking dmg, something other classes can dream about. It's the strongest defense in the game when it's performed succesfully. This on its own could be fine but with recent changes to nbs amount of dmg output, something needs to be done to balance it out. Creating a little drawback in the dodge roll+cloak combo could be a good start. Yes this suggestion is made to limit nb defense when dodge rolling into cloak. There are actually restrictions blocking Your from using certain skills after being bashed this is just another restriction of that type.
3. Heals right now control themselves. Whoever needs heal the most at any moment will get it. this is why playing healbot is so easy and effective, because You dont need lot of thinking about who and how You want to heal , You can just smash 1-2 buttons and game will do the rest for you. healers would still recive a heal, they would just have to decide which heal to use depends of the situation.
4. Making it blockable could not solve an issue since it would be still a strong stun tied to already strong ability although making it could be good start.
5. That is why I've said about heavy attack builds not heavy attacks on their own. These factors are off balance, empower, and sets that add numeric value to weapon attacks because in terms of resto and lightning staffs they apply to each tick. All those factors are very easily achievable and even when not all 3 are present but 1 or 2 are active still heavy attacks setups can deal lots of dmg with little to none effort.

1. A doge roll to one side or the other will put the target out of the cone and I have not seen a player able to react fast enough so that the rest of the channel continues to hit me.
2. Actually, magicka classes can dodge roll and then activate a shield so it does relate beyond a NB. There is no president for penalizing any skill because of an unrelated action that occurred prior. None that I can think of.
3. I am fully aware that theals control themselves and since we cannot control it, well, making a multi-target heal into a single target heal or specifically penalizing the healer is a great way to go if we want to reduce the number of healers.
4. Making it lockable would certainly help the issue. It would eliminate the stun and reduce the damage on a skill;l; that already has increased cost with each subsequent use within a short period of time. So it already has a penalty and this would add another hindrance..
5.If the heavy attack builds were overpowered then we would see much more of those builds. That is not the case.

1. Seems like You're playing against some rookies then. it really doesnt take much skill to move Your mouse or one of the buttons in pad. And since AoEs ignore dodge You'll still get hit by most if not all the ability not even mentioning that even if You dodged portion of that 1st jabs another one will be coming at You while snare is on You if You havnt applied source of snare immunity beforehand which also takes time and reources. 6 meters is not that tight as You think it is.
2. Comparing roll dodge into shield to roll dodge into cloak is kinda silly. Will shield prevent You from taking any dmg for 3 seconds and from taking any negative effects? The answer is no. 3 seconds is enough to take down 2-3 shields while nb in the meantime will safely heal while not taking any dmg. Big difference.
3. I think You didnt understood my idea. I dont want to make multi target heal into single target heal. I want to give specific healing abilities specifing priorities where some will be able to heal only You for 100% of value and other will be able to only heal allies for 100% of value when other party still can recive heal but not for the 100% of the tooltip.
4. Thing is most of the disruptions You'll get from streak will still happen when you're not blocking. It's just way to easy to apply the stun since it covers large area and have no target cap. Thing about the streak penalty is that it was greatly reduced. Previously streak had 50% cost increase with each recast and stun required to be more precise with choosing the path to teleport. Reducing cost to 33% increase per cast and improving stun resulted with what we have these days with sorcs spamming streak just to disrupt the flow of combat.
5. That logic of thinking fades away with each patch. For example magnecro is atm considered as one of the strongest setups in open world PvP. Do You observe flood of magnecros? Strong things right now have easier way to hide because there is plenty of strong and easy to use things atm with heavy attack builds being one of them. The idea that if something is OP then everyone will play with it is getting slightly outdated with the amount of setups and types of PvP encounters we have atm. In certain scenarios things can be OP and average at the same time based on the context. it's even hard right now to point out which class is definitively the best in PvP which was less of an issue in the past.

divnyi

axi wrote: »

Streak wont stop all dmg from incoming.

Streak stops damage from incoming by building up a distance at which you can no longer attack. If you start with stun, double streak is unstoppable at that.

axi wrote: »

As for the sources of detection we all know by now they're weak and often completly uneffective and sometimes even put the user at disadventage in PvP rather then giving any adventage.

I don't know what you are talking about. Since they buffed inner light and camo hunter, they are godlike at revealing NBs. Flare is worse because it has flight time, it's only good as preventive measure (anti-bomber) in a huge teamfight. And pots were always so strong that it's actually borderline unfair.

axi wrote: »

Now they also got weapon dmg buff from grim focus which is better then crit dmg buff was.

It's not better. Previously it was +10% damage on guaranteed crit after cloak. 300 damage is like ~3% damage boost.

axi

divnyi wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Streak wont stop all dmg from incoming.

Streak stops damage from incoming by building up a distance at which you can no longer attack. If you start with stun, double streak is unstoppable at that.

axi wrote: »

As for the sources of detection we all know by now they're weak and often completly uneffective and sometimes even put the user at disadventage in PvP rather then giving any adventage.

I don't know what you are talking about. Since they buffed inner light and camo hunter, they are godlike at revealing NBs. Flare is worse because it has flight time, it's only good as preventive measure (anti-bomber) in a huge teamfight. And pots were always so strong that it's actually borderline unfair.

axi wrote: »

Now they also got weapon dmg buff from grim focus which is better then crit dmg buff was.

It's not better. Previously it was +10% damage on guaranteed crit after cloak. 300 damage is like ~3% damage boost.

Can streak stop DoT dmg or all incoming dmg? The answer is no. Also You need atleast 3 streaks to temporarily get away from range attacks distance , You need i succesfull cloak to temporarily get away from any type of dmg. And if You're using detect potions argument I can just jump in with argument "just use gap closer" , the same level of argumentation basically. While I agree that streak is overtuned ability in its current form it doesnt suddenly justify existance of cloak in its current form.

yeah inner light and camo hunter are so godlike that basically only people using them are those who had them slotted mainly for other features and both camo hunter and inner light are weaker versions when it comes to detection that are kinda easy to deal with on nb. Both magelight and expert hunter are far from being "godlike" at revealing nightblades and when it coems to stamina nigbtlades those 4 seconds are not even issue for them. They can just set up shadow image dodge two or three times and if You wont follow them they'll vanish while being outside of detection range , if You will follow them they'll teleport to shade and vanish outside of the detection range. For sources of detection to really be usefull they would have to either have bigger radius or longer duration and smaller cost. In current form they're just average and may work only in specific situations.

300 wep dmg is better then 10% crit dmg. First of all 300 wep dmg after all multiplers (major brutality+medium armor passives)goes up to ~400 wep dmg even more if there is dk around. Lets assume someone fully buffed have 30k stam 6k wep dmg and 16k pen , lets assume it happens in no CP enviroment for less calculations (in CP it wont be much different).We also assume crit dmg at 70% value (base+nb passive+5xmedium armor) which will be instantly reduced by 20% due to 1320 crit resist everyone have so 50% is what we're left with. So after adding 10% crit dmg to effective weapon power formula, guaranteed hit from cloak will have dmg increased by 6,5% but on average in the part of fight that happens after first auto crit assuming crit chance around 20% that 10% crit dmg will give us growth of dmg by 1,8%. Additional 400 wep dmg (300 after buffs) will give us 4,5% dmg increase in that initial hit and on average. With dk in team it'll be over 5%. It's also worth to mention that 300 wep dmg is better when it comes to heals. So overall 300 wep dmg bonus is more beneficial then 10% crit dmg in PvP unless You are capable of killing someone with 1 hit or unless You're running with new acuity where both stats stats are pretty equal.